Do you think math people are the best programmers?
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Hi, i have a theory...that is that people with math studies are the best in the programming field (if you don't trust me, check Dennis Ritchie, Bjarne Stroustup, Alan Kay, etc)...what is your opinions about this? Is convenient study math books instead of programming books?
Since programming is an application of mathematics, math people have a solid basis. That doesn't neccesarily mean every math person is better at programming than every non-math person, but there's a greater chance that (s)he is, because math provides a more profound understanding to programming. When I studied math+CS, I've found there were both good and bad programmers among math students. But among CS students, there were usually even worse ones. That said, there was an even stronger correlation between C=64 / Apple II users and bad programming, because their programming style was spoiled by too much BASIC programming before starting their formal education... Personally I believe that math provides a very solid basis for good programming, as it teaches you how to deal with abstract concepts. Having said that, I have to acknowledge what Erudite_Eric said: math people may also tend to stick too much to the abstract problems, and in the end have trouble getting a usable product finished. People from the applied sciences, such as EE or physics tend to be more pragmatic about this. Being a mathematician myself, I usually get the best results when closely working wtih EEs or physicicists. At least that is my experience. OTOH, when I work on my own, I get fantastic results - but the product never gets finished... (which reminds me I need to get back to working on my product now!)
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Quite simply, the best programmers are programmers. I've *never* worked with a mathematician who was a great programmer, but I have met plenty of programmers who were great at maths. If people are primarily interested in programming, that's what makes them good. If they are primarily interested in Maths or Engineering or Art, then they will be (by definition) less interested in programming and therefore less good at it than they could be. Historically computing was used primarily for mathematical problem solving, so of course it involved a lot of maths and mathematicians. The names you quote are ancient history in the computing world. But we are increasingly standing on the shoulders of giants. We don't need to be able to calculate a fourier transform on paper in order to be capable of *using* an FFT in our programs. We can write a physics-based game with no ability to do physics calulations on paper. We can produce a website with complex financial graphs without having a degree in statistics. We have tools (libraries), and we need only understand how and when to use them, not how to build them from scratch.
Yeah, i agree with you perhaps "best programmers are programmers" but thing this...the people who studies math (p.e. google guys) first are maths and then programmers...in my perspective be a good programmer is more than typing code on an editor... much of the times is work with a piece of paper an pen doing numbers, calculations, diagrams, graphs, etc. And for ultimate instance cames the computer.
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A programmer who is not qualified in mathematics is akin to a surgeon who is not qualified in anatomy.
jajaja thats not true dude...well...first, i agree with you ;) but the reality says the opposite; how many people is coding every day without doing math or a lack of this...for example web developers are programmers, but do you think all of the web developers know math or worse the "pythagoras theorem"??
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Doesn't matter... Programming today is not only about some lines of code... its to do with business understanding too...
Yeah in ultimate instance. I think that programmers must know economics, math, graphic design, accounting, etc. etc. But in math is the pillar to economics, financial, accountings, physics, business (strongly linked to economics).
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Hi, i have a theory...that is that people with math studies are the best in the programming field (if you don't trust me, check Dennis Ritchie, Bjarne Stroustup, Alan Kay, etc)...what is your opinions about this? Is convenient study math books instead of programming books?
Interesting question! I think that defining a "good programmer" is a very subjective matter. There are many valid, applicable metrics and they usually contradict each other. However, I believe that math-skilled programmers have a very strong advantage when it comes to implementing novel algorithms in certain fields like image processing and pattern recognition. Most academic documents I've seen detailing powerful algorithms in those fields are explained in a strongly mathematical fashion, and the gap between "the math" and "the code", at least for me, is sometimes abysmal - especially after I stumble upon a concrete implementation and see the code that was actually derived from the mathematical formulations described in the paper. ;P
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Having a BSEE degree myself, I can explain why EEs tend to be better at it than others. A lot of us, especially software/firmware types, have to twiddle bits in assembly and get down to the true bare metal. We cut our teeth on that. So, when we move up to the other areas of programming like desktop and web apps, it is so much easier. I have also found that when you have to program without a nice IDE and lots of debugging tools like exist in and around Visual Studio, you tend to be a LOT more careful with what you are doing and typing.
It depends on what you define as a good programmer. Is it Someone who writes unreadable/unmaintainable code at super fast speed Someone who thinks about testing before they write a program Someone who documents their code before writing it Someone who can pick up anyone else's code and run with it Someone who knows lots of techniques but doesn't apply any of them in their code Someone who writes highly maintainable code Someone who write great documentation and rubbish code Someone who can explain someone else's code and what they were thinking when they wrote it ...
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Hi, i have a theory...that is that people with math studies are the best in the programming field (if you don't trust me, check Dennis Ritchie, Bjarne Stroustup, Alan Kay, etc)...what is your opinions about this? Is convenient study math books instead of programming books?
My major was computer engineering, aka specialized electrical engineering. I always loved to program but didn't want to be stuck on the high level so I chose engineering. Now, I seem to suck at Calculus. I mean, regular math, statistics I can do with my eyes shut. Now come calculus... That was my Achilles heel during whole college. Worse because it's used in almost all other grades during the 5 year course. Calculus though, made my mind much sharper, which obviously helped a lot on programming. Fast and logical thinking can get the benefits of a mind trained in math. But then I sometimes wonder if I actually suck at calculus or if it's because I'm lazy. I mean, I never do homework, ever. So I don't practice and practice is what makes you memorize all those theories, formulas and develops the way of thinking to solve complex equations. I have a terrible memory, so all those formulas for La Place, Integrals never really made to my brain. On the other hand I never had any problem with physics. From relativity to mechanics. The only problem I had was with electromagnetism, that again, hundreds of formulas and scenarios. So, sometimes I wonder... Do I really hate and suck and math? Or do I really enjoy not bringing college home?
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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jajaja thats not true dude...well...first, i agree with you ;) but the reality says the opposite; how many people is coding every day without doing math or a lack of this...for example web developers are programmers, but do you think all of the web developers know math or worse the "pythagoras theorem"??
innuendoreplay wrote:
how many people is coding every day without doing math
Continuing with the analogy, you may see them as nurses. Ask them to perform a complex brain surgery.... Oh boy... Even if the doctor only practices a desk job, he still has the foundation to go farther if required. On the other hand, nurses are very good to help in emergencies but they can't lead a transplant team.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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I think for engineers, what it boils down to is discipline. The engineering fields require rigorous discipline that is pounded into you from the very first engineering class you take as a freshman. It is the lack of that level of discipline that makes engineers scoff at the notion of a CS graduate (myself included) calling themselves a software engineer. That said, IMHO, the best programmers are born, not made - good programming requires a blend of creativity, abstract thinking, and problem solving skills that the great programmers have long before they even reach post-secondary education.
svella wrote:
I think for engineers, what it boils down to is discipline.
I think us engineers are not really about the discipline, but about the area of coverage. While you CS guys are very specialized in software, engineers usually don't know as much about software but can piece very different things together. These are the qualifications I like to believe engineers are trained for, like our friend said, we are good at patching things together. In any case, I agree with you. Like any other skill, trained or not, some are born for it, some are not. The specific training for engineers and CS will benefit everyone in a different way. If you're not born for it, you're gonna suck anyway.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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Hi, i have a theory...that is that people with math studies are the best in the programming field (if you don't trust me, check Dennis Ritchie, Bjarne Stroustup, Alan Kay, etc)...what is your opinions about this? Is convenient study math books instead of programming books?
I wouldn't necessarily say that all math makes for good programmers, but certain branches definitely help specific areas in CS. For example, I've found that a good understanding of logic and set theory makes you seem like a miracle worker among people who work with SQL. I always had it easy with math until I hit a speed bump in Calculus I, but I got over it pretty well by Calculus II. It was just a bit jarring and required a shift in my way of thinking. In that sense, flexibility and openness to different ways of thinking tend to help as well. It's been my view that CS classes tend to focus on math problems, since those tend to be well-defined. When a CS Graduate hits the real world, and sees that the things they're required to program aren't that well-defined, they have to make up for that by being inquisitive, shifting their point of view, and just plain old extracting the required knowledge out of the brains of those involved using torture devices. Math people tend to embody the first two, and engineers tend to be good at creating the equipment for the latter. 8-)
Are you Less Wrong? http://lesswrong.com/
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A programmer who is not qualified in mathematics is akin to a surgeon who is not qualified in anatomy.
Michael K Gray wrote:
A programmer who is not qualified in mathematics is akin to a surgeon who is not qualified in anatomy.
Nonsensical analogy. First if you want to compare programming to something then you would need to compare it to medicine - the entire industry. Second if you think that the only thing that makes a surgeon qualified to cut into your brain is their knowledge of anatomy then you should welcome your accidental lobotomy.
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Hi, i have a theory...that is that people with math studies are the best in the programming field (if you don't trust me, check Dennis Ritchie, Bjarne Stroustup, Alan Kay, etc)...what is your opinions about this? Is convenient study math books instead of programming books?
The best programmers I've seen have been physicists. I'd say math ability correlates with programming ability, but there are exceptions. I knew someone with a Masters in math who couldn't quite get programming. But math skills help with programming; many programming problems are just math problems in disguise. Math is everywhere, and with a math background you can recognize when it applies to the problem you're working on.
"Microsoft -- Adding unnecessary complexity to your work since 1987!"
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It depends on what you are programming. if you program signal processing you need math. If you do some image maker you need thins thiks like Kanji (Steve Jobs) If you program Android you need think like usability etc.... dropped out of college after six months and spent the next 18 months dropping in on creative classes, including a course on calligraphy.[42] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve\_Jobs#Early\_life\_and\_education
Andrej Juhas wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve\_Jobs#Early\_life\_and\_education
Exceptions do not make the rules. That is even more true for extreme exceptions.
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Hi, i have a theory...that is that people with math studies are the best in the programming field (if you don't trust me, check Dennis Ritchie, Bjarne Stroustup, Alan Kay, etc)...what is your opinions about this? Is convenient study math books instead of programming books?
in my experience, guys that studied math are pretty bad as programmers while guys who studied music or physics are pretty good. Nonetheless people who didn't study at all are often very well. To make a short story long: If you ask me, there is no background that makes the best programmers. It is the combination of passion, will, ambition. A cite from The passionate Programmer who I think is pretty close to reality: I did all of this without a formal education in computer programming. I was a musician before becoming a computer programmer. I went to college to study music. Since musicians don’t benefit much from college degrees, I chose to avoid any class that didn’t help me be a better musician. This means I left the university with more credits than required for any degree but still a few years worth of actual class time before I could graduate. In that way, I’m unqualified to be a professional software developer—at least if you look at the typical requirements for a software engineering position on the job market. But, though I’m unqualified to be a typical software developer, my background as a musician gave me one key insight that ultimately allowed me to skip the step of being a typical software developer (who wants to be typical, anyway?). Nobody becomes a musician because they want to get a job and lead a stable and comfortable life. The music industry is too cruel an environment for this to be a feasible plan. People who become professional musicians all want to be great. At least when starting out, greatness is binary in the music world. A musician wants to either be great (and famous for it!) or not do it at all.
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It depends on what you define as a good programmer. Is it Someone who writes unreadable/unmaintainable code at super fast speed Someone who thinks about testing before they write a program Someone who documents their code before writing it Someone who can pick up anyone else's code and run with it Someone who knows lots of techniques but doesn't apply any of them in their code Someone who writes highly maintainable code Someone who write great documentation and rubbish code Someone who can explain someone else's code and what they were thinking when they wrote it ...
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Don't you have a queen to be worshiping today? I do say maths, and get weird looks in this country.
That's because math is an all-encompassing term. How many Gods are on the earth? Speaking plurally there, is also heresy in some circles. Hmm, circle, that's math, right? (in some ways, yes, and no in other ways) I'm not going to try to convert Dave, and he can try but he won't convert me. Math is EVERYTHING! AND nothing!
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Just waiting for the concert. I had a bad game of golf and need something to kick! :)
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
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svella wrote:
I think for engineers, what it boils down to is discipline.
I think us engineers are not really about the discipline, but about the area of coverage. While you CS guys are very specialized in software, engineers usually don't know as much about software but can piece very different things together. These are the qualifications I like to believe engineers are trained for, like our friend said, we are good at patching things together. In any case, I agree with you. Like any other skill, trained or not, some are born for it, some are not. The specific training for engineers and CS will benefit everyone in a different way. If you're not born for it, you're gonna suck anyway.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
I know a few mathematicians: many don't think laterally or step out to see the big picture. Some of the applications guys are good analysts: not necessarily what I'd call good programmers but then, like structured programming, everyone has a different definition of what a good programmer is. Come to think of it, when you say mathematician do you mean application mathematicians or pure mathematicians or statisticians?
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Hi, i have a theory...that is that people with math studies are the best in the programming field (if you don't trust me, check Dennis Ritchie, Bjarne Stroustup, Alan Kay, etc)...what is your opinions about this? Is convenient study math books instead of programming books?
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I know a few mathematicians: many don't think laterally or step out to see the big picture. Some of the applications guys are good analysts: not necessarily what I'd call good programmers but then, like structured programming, everyone has a different definition of what a good programmer is. Come to think of it, when you say mathematician do you mean application mathematicians or pure mathematicians or statisticians?
I'm not really saying mathematicians, I'm saying engineers. Mathematicians is being too specific. Although I did see mathematicians that are very good on solving problems with simple algorithms. But that is a kernel type of skill set. Engineers are trained in a lot of stuff, from physics and math, to programming and electronics. That's what help to see the big picture and a wide variety of scenarios. From simple software to an automated production line. And a good programmer still still drill down to the individual. The educational formation will be responsible for making this individual better prepared and trained to perform his office.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia