Do you think math people are the best programmers?
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I think for engineers, what it boils down to is discipline. The engineering fields require rigorous discipline that is pounded into you from the very first engineering class you take as a freshman. It is the lack of that level of discipline that makes engineers scoff at the notion of a CS graduate (myself included) calling themselves a software engineer. That said, IMHO, the best programmers are born, not made - good programming requires a blend of creativity, abstract thinking, and problem solving skills that the great programmers have long before they even reach post-secondary education.
svella wrote:
I think for engineers, what it boils down to is discipline.
I think us engineers are not really about the discipline, but about the area of coverage. While you CS guys are very specialized in software, engineers usually don't know as much about software but can piece very different things together. These are the qualifications I like to believe engineers are trained for, like our friend said, we are good at patching things together. In any case, I agree with you. Like any other skill, trained or not, some are born for it, some are not. The specific training for engineers and CS will benefit everyone in a different way. If you're not born for it, you're gonna suck anyway.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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Hi, i have a theory...that is that people with math studies are the best in the programming field (if you don't trust me, check Dennis Ritchie, Bjarne Stroustup, Alan Kay, etc)...what is your opinions about this? Is convenient study math books instead of programming books?
I wouldn't necessarily say that all math makes for good programmers, but certain branches definitely help specific areas in CS. For example, I've found that a good understanding of logic and set theory makes you seem like a miracle worker among people who work with SQL. I always had it easy with math until I hit a speed bump in Calculus I, but I got over it pretty well by Calculus II. It was just a bit jarring and required a shift in my way of thinking. In that sense, flexibility and openness to different ways of thinking tend to help as well. It's been my view that CS classes tend to focus on math problems, since those tend to be well-defined. When a CS Graduate hits the real world, and sees that the things they're required to program aren't that well-defined, they have to make up for that by being inquisitive, shifting their point of view, and just plain old extracting the required knowledge out of the brains of those involved using torture devices. Math people tend to embody the first two, and engineers tend to be good at creating the equipment for the latter. 8-)
Are you Less Wrong? http://lesswrong.com/
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A programmer who is not qualified in mathematics is akin to a surgeon who is not qualified in anatomy.
Michael K Gray wrote:
A programmer who is not qualified in mathematics is akin to a surgeon who is not qualified in anatomy.
Nonsensical analogy. First if you want to compare programming to something then you would need to compare it to medicine - the entire industry. Second if you think that the only thing that makes a surgeon qualified to cut into your brain is their knowledge of anatomy then you should welcome your accidental lobotomy.
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It depends on what you are programming. if you program signal processing you need math. If you do some image maker you need thins thiks like Kanji (Steve Jobs) If you program Android you need think like usability etc.... dropped out of college after six months and spent the next 18 months dropping in on creative classes, including a course on calligraphy.[42] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve\_Jobs#Early\_life\_and\_education
Andrej Juhas wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve\_Jobs#Early\_life\_and\_education
Exceptions do not make the rules. That is even more true for extreme exceptions.
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Hi, i have a theory...that is that people with math studies are the best in the programming field (if you don't trust me, check Dennis Ritchie, Bjarne Stroustup, Alan Kay, etc)...what is your opinions about this? Is convenient study math books instead of programming books?
The best programmers I've seen have been physicists. I'd say math ability correlates with programming ability, but there are exceptions. I knew someone with a Masters in math who couldn't quite get programming. But math skills help with programming; many programming problems are just math problems in disguise. Math is everywhere, and with a math background you can recognize when it applies to the problem you're working on.
"Microsoft -- Adding unnecessary complexity to your work since 1987!"
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Hi, i have a theory...that is that people with math studies are the best in the programming field (if you don't trust me, check Dennis Ritchie, Bjarne Stroustup, Alan Kay, etc)...what is your opinions about this? Is convenient study math books instead of programming books?
in my experience, guys that studied math are pretty bad as programmers while guys who studied music or physics are pretty good. Nonetheless people who didn't study at all are often very well. To make a short story long: If you ask me, there is no background that makes the best programmers. It is the combination of passion, will, ambition. A cite from The passionate Programmer who I think is pretty close to reality: I did all of this without a formal education in computer programming. I was a musician before becoming a computer programmer. I went to college to study music. Since musicians don’t benefit much from college degrees, I chose to avoid any class that didn’t help me be a better musician. This means I left the university with more credits than required for any degree but still a few years worth of actual class time before I could graduate. In that way, I’m unqualified to be a professional software developer—at least if you look at the typical requirements for a software engineering position on the job market. But, though I’m unqualified to be a typical software developer, my background as a musician gave me one key insight that ultimately allowed me to skip the step of being a typical software developer (who wants to be typical, anyway?). Nobody becomes a musician because they want to get a job and lead a stable and comfortable life. The music industry is too cruel an environment for this to be a feasible plan. People who become professional musicians all want to be great. At least when starting out, greatness is binary in the music world. A musician wants to either be great (and famous for it!) or not do it at all.
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It depends on what you define as a good programmer. Is it Someone who writes unreadable/unmaintainable code at super fast speed Someone who thinks about testing before they write a program Someone who documents their code before writing it Someone who can pick up anyone else's code and run with it Someone who knows lots of techniques but doesn't apply any of them in their code Someone who writes highly maintainable code Someone who write great documentation and rubbish code Someone who can explain someone else's code and what they were thinking when they wrote it ...
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Don't you have a queen to be worshiping today? I do say maths, and get weird looks in this country.
That's because math is an all-encompassing term. How many Gods are on the earth? Speaking plurally there, is also heresy in some circles. Hmm, circle, that's math, right? (in some ways, yes, and no in other ways) I'm not going to try to convert Dave, and he can try but he won't convert me. Math is EVERYTHING! AND nothing!
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Just waiting for the concert. I had a bad game of golf and need something to kick! :)
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
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svella wrote:
I think for engineers, what it boils down to is discipline.
I think us engineers are not really about the discipline, but about the area of coverage. While you CS guys are very specialized in software, engineers usually don't know as much about software but can piece very different things together. These are the qualifications I like to believe engineers are trained for, like our friend said, we are good at patching things together. In any case, I agree with you. Like any other skill, trained or not, some are born for it, some are not. The specific training for engineers and CS will benefit everyone in a different way. If you're not born for it, you're gonna suck anyway.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
I know a few mathematicians: many don't think laterally or step out to see the big picture. Some of the applications guys are good analysts: not necessarily what I'd call good programmers but then, like structured programming, everyone has a different definition of what a good programmer is. Come to think of it, when you say mathematician do you mean application mathematicians or pure mathematicians or statisticians?
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Hi, i have a theory...that is that people with math studies are the best in the programming field (if you don't trust me, check Dennis Ritchie, Bjarne Stroustup, Alan Kay, etc)...what is your opinions about this? Is convenient study math books instead of programming books?
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I know a few mathematicians: many don't think laterally or step out to see the big picture. Some of the applications guys are good analysts: not necessarily what I'd call good programmers but then, like structured programming, everyone has a different definition of what a good programmer is. Come to think of it, when you say mathematician do you mean application mathematicians or pure mathematicians or statisticians?
I'm not really saying mathematicians, I'm saying engineers. Mathematicians is being too specific. Although I did see mathematicians that are very good on solving problems with simple algorithms. But that is a kernel type of skill set. Engineers are trained in a lot of stuff, from physics and math, to programming and electronics. That's what help to see the big picture and a wide variety of scenarios. From simple software to an automated production line. And a good programmer still still drill down to the individual. The educational formation will be responsible for making this individual better prepared and trained to perform his office.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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In my experience, the far best programmers are people who studied electrical engineering, but took jobs as programmers. I think it has something to do with understanding logic and the inability to quickly "patch" their work... must be right when it is deployed. Some of the worst are CS majors.
Couldn't agree more; I'm an EE :). I think the things you get as an EE are an understanding of the underlying hardware and what is actually happening in the processor for every line of code, a discipline for viewing everything as a (hopfully closed loop) system, and intense and applied math. (Most math majors I know don't really apply math to anything.) Next to EE's I find musicians pretty easy to train as really great programmers.
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Couldn't agree more; I'm an EE :). I think the things you get as an EE are an understanding of the underlying hardware and what is actually happening in the processor for every line of code, a discipline for viewing everything as a (hopfully closed loop) system, and intense and applied math. (Most math majors I know don't really apply math to anything.) Next to EE's I find musicians pretty easy to train as really great programmers.
As a CS guy who studied lots of hardware out of the school, i believe EE folks are more likely to be good programmers. But understanding the underlying hardware wont be enough in many cases to make someone a good programmer. Math knowledge including combinatorics and a bit of calculus is a must have if you are working on cutting edge software and by cutting edge i mean software systems that you can't find proper existing algorithms for your needs to code them well. A programmer who is good at math, algorithm design and data structures with enough knowledge of the technology/tools he is working on/with and has hardware knowledge as a gift, if is a good team worker, can be a good programmer. And a real story: A month ago, a taxi driver asked me about my job, "Computer programmer" i said. He thought for a sec, and replied "Yeah... but... that's what everyone does, i mean what your real job?!... how do you make a living?"
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Hi, i have a theory...that is that people with math studies are the best in the programming field (if you don't trust me, check Dennis Ritchie, Bjarne Stroustup, Alan Kay, etc)...what is your opinions about this? Is convenient study math books instead of programming books?
There's no magic formula, it has a lot to do with things said before. - You have to be good at solving riddles (math guys usually have it). - You have to understand the machine (EE guys should). - You have to have hunger for knowledge and practice alot. - You have to see the bigger picture to combine the pieces. - You have to love doing it ("Programming" :laugh: ). Some have it, others work for it... p.s. English is not my mother language.
Paulo Gomes Over and Out :D
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There's no magic formula, it has a lot to do with things said before. - You have to be good at solving riddles (math guys usually have it). - You have to understand the machine (EE guys should). - You have to have hunger for knowledge and practice alot. - You have to see the bigger picture to combine the pieces. - You have to love doing it ("Programming" :laugh: ). Some have it, others work for it... p.s. English is not my mother language.
Paulo Gomes Over and Out :D
Too me english is not my mother language...Dude i like your reply...there's no magic formula, but as a programmers we usually need study a lot. The key point is the hunger for knowledge and it depends of every person. But taking the topic, if you have a lot of interest in math, surely it will make you a better programmer.
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seriously no, you don't want to be a mathematician to be a programmer. but you need ability to understand any logic, and effectively write codes based on that understanding. any how, you need to solve any problem.
Maybe not a mathematician, but studying math is maybe the better way to understand any logic.