Vaccinations
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I agree, swimming is not 100% safe. But would you flagrantly criticize someone who chooses to not let their kids swim because of their beliefs? It's fine for you to vaccinate your kids. That is your right. But you seem very upset over those who disagree with you.
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I have a hard time understanding how any educated person
That's an ironic statement. Everyone that I know personally who is against vaccines has done a lot of research. The more research you do on vaccines the more you see how high the risks are. You're right in that more disease may be prevented than caused by vaccines but the risk is still there. Why hate on those that aren't willing to take that risk for their kids?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
The risks involved with vaccination are much lower than swimming and driving so I'd expect those that don't vaccinate wouldn't let their kids swim or ride in the car. Vaccination isn't a purely individual decision. It is a collective defense not an individual one. It works when the transmission rate of the disease drops to an unsustainable level. That depends both on the coverage of the vaccine and it's individual effectiveness. Those that don't get vaccinated are getting a free ride without sharing any of the costs. I rank it as more selfish than trying to get a free ride on something like welfare or even theft that doesn't put someone's life at risk. I also think that a level of shaming and isolation is a good consequence for not contributing. I just can't fathom the logic that a small risk to my child is worth putting infants and those with immune system problems at higher risk. I use it to explain to my kids what it means to be part of a community and how we all work together to help everyone out. Also, to help them understand risk, and why I harp on them constantly to be safe around automobiles, but don't worry about many of the other things that families these days seem to be concerned about.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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The risks involved with vaccination are much lower than swimming and driving so I'd expect those that don't vaccinate wouldn't let their kids swim or ride in the car. Vaccination isn't a purely individual decision. It is a collective defense not an individual one. It works when the transmission rate of the disease drops to an unsustainable level. That depends both on the coverage of the vaccine and it's individual effectiveness. Those that don't get vaccinated are getting a free ride without sharing any of the costs. I rank it as more selfish than trying to get a free ride on something like welfare or even theft that doesn't put someone's life at risk. I also think that a level of shaming and isolation is a good consequence for not contributing. I just can't fathom the logic that a small risk to my child is worth putting infants and those with immune system problems at higher risk. I use it to explain to my kids what it means to be part of a community and how we all work together to help everyone out. Also, to help them understand risk, and why I harp on them constantly to be safe around automobiles, but don't worry about many of the other things that families these days seem to be concerned about.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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If you vaccinate your children then they are protected from those who aren't vaccinated, right? What am I missing here?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Vaccines only provide a partial protection as they usually don't use the actual pathogen in question, and they wear off over time. To be effective they only have to reduce the spread of the disease enough so that it isn't sustainable. Adding a small percentage of vaccinated individuals into the mix can bump the transmission rate into a dangerous range. In addition many vaccines can't be given before the children are at risk most common with whooping cough. A number of infants have been killed by whooping cough in recent years before they could be vaccinated. It happens more often in areas where vaccination is less common. I vaccinate my kids to protect my neighbor's babies. I interpret my neighbor not reciprocating as selfish.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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Vaccines only provide a partial protection as they usually don't use the actual pathogen in question, and they wear off over time. To be effective they only have to reduce the spread of the disease enough so that it isn't sustainable. Adding a small percentage of vaccinated individuals into the mix can bump the transmission rate into a dangerous range. In addition many vaccines can't be given before the children are at risk most common with whooping cough. A number of infants have been killed by whooping cough in recent years before they could be vaccinated. It happens more often in areas where vaccination is less common. I vaccinate my kids to protect my neighbor's babies. I interpret my neighbor not reciprocating as selfish.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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I interpret my neighbor not reciprocating as selfish.
You're wrong, but I respect your right to believe that.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
What a cop-out. At least you could have called me on the simplification I made. My family does get quite a bit of a benefit from vaccination, so it's not completely altruistic. If you really believe that I'm wrong, you should be able to point out a vaccine where a risk-benefit analysis is negative for the individual. Something like that would definitely make me reconsider my position. The problem with that is that the system we use to choose vaccines looks at that data to decide whether or not to require the vaccine in the first place.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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What a cop-out. At least you could have called me on the simplification I made. My family does get quite a bit of a benefit from vaccination, so it's not completely altruistic. If you really believe that I'm wrong, you should be able to point out a vaccine where a risk-benefit analysis is negative for the individual. Something like that would definitely make me reconsider my position. The problem with that is that the system we use to choose vaccines looks at that data to decide whether or not to require the vaccine in the first place.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
You need to read what I wrote. I said you are wrong in assuming someone who chooses not to vaccinate is being selfish. I have seen a healthy young girl become autistic because of vaccinations. I have also seen a young man who played quarterback in high school become a schizophrenia from vaccinations. These are 2 people that I personally have known for years. I have seen what can happen from vaccinations. That is way more powerful than any "study" that can be done. You go ahead and vaccinate your children. I disagree with you but I am not going to criticize you because I know you are trying to be the best parent you know how. But don't do you dare call my a selfish "a**hole" because I love my kids the same as you and therefore I choose not to vaccinate them.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Does any of the lunatics have any solid proof that these vaccines are bad?
I don't know about the "lunatics" having proof or not but I personally know a young girl who became autistic after getting immunizations. What makes anyone think there is any chemical drug that has no side effects?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
I don't know about the "lunatics" having proof or not but I personally know a young girl who became autistic after getting immunizations.
I bet if you looked around you could find a child that was killed in a automobile accident after getting immunized as well. Same causality.
ryanb31 wrote:
What makes anyone think there is any chemical drug that has no side effects?
That of course has nothing to do with your previous assertion. Do you know anyone that has died of measles, whooping cough or polio? Those of course are the "side effects" of not getting immunized. Proven side effects.
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the loonies who think vaccinations cause autism, etc.
Not only have there been studies to confirm that autism is a possible side-effect but I have seen it first hand. A young healthy normal girl that we have known for years became autistic after getting immunizations one year. Why do you think they are completely safe? What evidence do you have?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
Not only have there been studies to confirm that autism is a possible side-effect
Actually quite a well popular study that showed that in the UK. Of course the doctor that did it was being paid in connection with a lawyer that was looking to sue for companies for autism. The research was later withdrawn and the doctor is currently under criminal indictment in the UK. Is that the "study" you had in mind? There are no reputable studies that show that. There are in fact reputable studies (plural) that show it isn't true.
ryanb31 wrote:
A young healthy normal girl that we have known for years became autistic after getting immunizations one year
Which only demonstrates that you know knowing about autism nor science.
ryanb31 wrote:
Why do you think they are completely safe? What evidence do you have?
Have you ever heard of google? When someone understands how to use it, to really use it, one can actually find reliable information versus alarmist lies. Following is one excellent article not only because it is fully available on the internet but because it addresses (presumably) some of those specific studies that you claim exist. http://immunizenow.org/shared/content/takeyourbestshot/Adolescent%20Immunization%20Toolkits/Influenza%20Resources/Flu%20Info%20for%20providers/Vaccines%20and%20autism.pdf[^] However there are many other articles as well.
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I don't think anyone claims they are perfectly safe.
It seemed like that is what some of them were saying. Calling anyone who thinks they are not safe loonies and crazies and the such.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
Calling anyone who thinks they are not safe loonies and crazies and the such.
Quite clear that they are. Immunizations can have side effects. Autism is not one of them. I am rather certain that more children die and are seriously injured by being driven to school by their parents than via immunizations. By your logic those parents should be hiring professional drivers.
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I agree, swimming is not 100% safe. But would you flagrantly criticize someone who chooses to not let their kids swim because of their beliefs? It's fine for you to vaccinate your kids. That is your right. But you seem very upset over those who disagree with you.
Quote:
I have a hard time understanding how any educated person
That's an ironic statement. Everyone that I know personally who is against vaccines has done a lot of research. The more research you do on vaccines the more you see how high the risks are. You're right in that more disease may be prevented than caused by vaccines but the risk is still there. Why hate on those that aren't willing to take that risk for their kids?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
I agree, swimming is not 100% safe. But would you flagrantly criticize someone who chooses to not let their kids swim because of their beliefs?
Specious. EVERYTHING has a risk. By your argument if those parents are 'protecting' their children then they should never let them leave the house. And activities in the house should be curtailed as well. Such as locking them in an empty room. Perhaps strapped to a board to keep them from moving around.
ryanb31 wrote:
That's an ironic statement. Everyone that I know personally who is against vaccines has done a lot of research. The more research you do on vaccines the more you see how high the risks are.
One obvious possibility is that they do not in fact know how to do "research". Or do not in fact know how to understand it. Any one that does would know that the risks are very low (and autism is NOT a risk.) They would also know how HIGH the risk was for not doing it.
ryanb31 wrote:
Why hate on those that aren't willing to take that risk for their kids?
Why hate someone who locks their child in a room and never lets them leave? Why hate someone who lets their child beat puppies to death with a rock or who sells heroin at their school?
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I interpret my neighbor not reciprocating as selfish.
You're wrong, but I respect your right to believe that.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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You need to read what I wrote. I said you are wrong in assuming someone who chooses not to vaccinate is being selfish. I have seen a healthy young girl become autistic because of vaccinations. I have also seen a young man who played quarterback in high school become a schizophrenia from vaccinations. These are 2 people that I personally have known for years. I have seen what can happen from vaccinations. That is way more powerful than any "study" that can be done. You go ahead and vaccinate your children. I disagree with you but I am not going to criticize you because I know you are trying to be the best parent you know how. But don't do you dare call my a selfish "a**hole" because I love my kids the same as you and therefore I choose not to vaccinate them.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
I have seen a healthy young girl become autistic because of vaccinations.
There is NO causality. It has been PROVEN that there is no causality. Immunizations to NOT pose a risk for autism. Period.
ryanb31 wrote:
I have also seen a young man who played quarterback in high school become a schizophrenia from vaccinations.
Nonsense. I can only suppose that you do not understand causality. Alternatively provide a medical journal article that shows a risk from the specific immunization with that specific effect.
ryanb31 wrote:
But don't do you dare call my a selfish "a**hole" because I love my kids the same as you and therefore I choose not to vaccinate them.
I am sure that parents such as the following thought that they were doing their children a favor as well. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/70/4/582.short[^]
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ryanb31 wrote:
I don't know about the "lunatics" having proof or not but I personally know a young girl who became autistic after getting immunizations.
I bet if you looked around you could find a child that was killed in a automobile accident after getting immunized as well. Same causality.
ryanb31 wrote:
What makes anyone think there is any chemical drug that has no side effects?
That of course has nothing to do with your previous assertion. Do you know anyone that has died of measles, whooping cough or polio? Those of course are the "side effects" of not getting immunized. Proven side effects.
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ryanb31 wrote:
Calling anyone who thinks they are not safe loonies and crazies and the such.
Quite clear that they are. Immunizations can have side effects. Autism is not one of them. I am rather certain that more children die and are seriously injured by being driven to school by their parents than via immunizations. By your logic those parents should be hiring professional drivers.
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ryanb31 wrote:
Not only have there been studies to confirm that autism is a possible side-effect
Actually quite a well popular study that showed that in the UK. Of course the doctor that did it was being paid in connection with a lawyer that was looking to sue for companies for autism. The research was later withdrawn and the doctor is currently under criminal indictment in the UK. Is that the "study" you had in mind? There are no reputable studies that show that. There are in fact reputable studies (plural) that show it isn't true.
ryanb31 wrote:
A young healthy normal girl that we have known for years became autistic after getting immunizations one year
Which only demonstrates that you know knowing about autism nor science.
ryanb31 wrote:
Why do you think they are completely safe? What evidence do you have?
Have you ever heard of google? When someone understands how to use it, to really use it, one can actually find reliable information versus alarmist lies. Following is one excellent article not only because it is fully available on the internet but because it addresses (presumably) some of those specific studies that you claim exist. http://immunizenow.org/shared/content/takeyourbestshot/Adolescent%20Immunization%20Toolkits/Influenza%20Resources/Flu%20Info%20for%20providers/Vaccines%20and%20autism.pdf[^] However there are many other articles as well.
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There are no reputable studies that show that.
Not according to your definition of reputable.
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Which only demonstrates that you know knowing about autism nor science.
When I see someone, not just one person, get sick from vaccinations you are telling me science has the answer and I don't? OK, so what is the answer?
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Have you ever heard of google?
I do. Here, let me help you. Click here.[^] Then you quote an article on immunizenow.org. Really? Really? ImmunizeNow.org? That is your reputable source? Wow.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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ryanb31 wrote:
You're wrong, but I respect your right to believe that.
So if I want my child to learn how to use guns it is ok if I let them shoot your child in the process?
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ryanb31 wrote:
I have seen a healthy young girl become autistic because of vaccinations.
There is NO causality. It has been PROVEN that there is no causality. Immunizations to NOT pose a risk for autism. Period.
ryanb31 wrote:
I have also seen a young man who played quarterback in high school become a schizophrenia from vaccinations.
Nonsense. I can only suppose that you do not understand causality. Alternatively provide a medical journal article that shows a risk from the specific immunization with that specific effect.
ryanb31 wrote:
But don't do you dare call my a selfish "a**hole" because I love my kids the same as you and therefore I choose not to vaccinate them.
I am sure that parents such as the following thought that they were doing their children a favor as well. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/70/4/582.short[^]
I have seen it. You can Google all day long and try to pretend like it does not happen, but I have seen it with mine own eyes. Twice. Get some hard evidence. All you have is research done by the medical industry. No wonder you can't see the truth.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/doctors-unite-to-smash-the-anti-vaccine-group/comments-e6freuy9-1226431497313[^] This is the link to the paper article.
I don't speak Idiot - please talk slowly and clearly "I have sexdaily. I mean dyslexia. Fcuk!" Driven to the arms of Heineken by the wife
Thanks, I commented.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Does any of the lunatics have any solid proof that these vaccines are bad?
I don't know about the "lunatics" having proof or not but I personally know a young girl who became autistic after getting immunizations. What makes anyone think there is any chemical drug that has no side effects?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Bloody hell. What a pile of crap. Let me explain some things here 1 - correlation is not causality. Vaccinations occur before it's possible to know if someone is autistic. The child was already autistic. This is because: 2 - you can't CATCH autism, nor is there any known mechanism to make it occur post birth. It's a condition of brain development ( there is some thought that it's a form of hyper masculinity ). As such, nothing can cause it.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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ryanb31 wrote:
I don't know about the "lunatics" having proof or not but I personally know a young girl who became autistic after getting immunizations.
I bet if you looked around you could find a child that was killed in a automobile accident after getting immunized as well. Same causality.
ryanb31 wrote:
What makes anyone think there is any chemical drug that has no side effects?
That of course has nothing to do with your previous assertion. Do you know anyone that has died of measles, whooping cough or polio? Those of course are the "side effects" of not getting immunized. Proven side effects.
I wish I could 12 this instead of 5ing it.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.