Will Windows 8/Metro be dead on arrival?
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Yes, here we go again. I realise that this topic has probably been brought up countless times over the past few months but I have to know... what is the general consensus in the developer community about the upcoming release of Windows 8? I know Microsoft wanted to make some big changes to help them break into the tablet market, but is all the ridiculous flipping about between desktop/Metro mode the future or a great big waste of time? Was the removal of the Start Menu from the desktop a step too far? What do you think? All I know is that I won't be scrambling to this new OS for a good while yet if the final release on the 26th of October turns out like I think it might. :|
A programming language is to a programmer what a fine hat is to one who is fond of fancy garden parties. Just don't try wearing any .NET language on your head. Some of them are sharp.
Human beings are different, so some people will like the [Not Metro] interface and others won't. Personally I have used it on my 2nd laptop since the first preview and have upgraded through to the final preview all the way along, but I still hate it - I just don't want to be accused of only trying it for an hour and then giving up. Also, as a Windows professional I need to know it regardless of whether I like it or not. I really think that the central issue is with how people's brains work, and that's not written with any kind of "superior" motive. Some people process images better and some people process the words. When I look at the new start page I just see a forest of icons that I have to work through to find what I want, whereas with the W7 Start menu it was hierarchical and so was relatively faster and certainly less frustrating for me. Also, if I try using the Search text box then - again, the way my particular brain works - it takes me a moment to find the words sometimes for what I want which I also find causes a quick break in the flow of activity. Microsoft say that the Start button had largely fallen into disuse, but that really isn't what I have seen and I work with lots of users. It is my opinion that Microsoft have committed a follow-on blunder which I haven't seen discussed yet and I will explain. I don't like the [Not Metro] interface on a desktop, but I do agree that it works much better on a touch tablet device. However, I think that for the many people who fall into the "hate W8" camp from their desktop experience their experience with W8 tablets will have been poisoned, and they will be less interested in going down that route. I might possibly have gone for a [Not Metro] tablet myself at one stage, but I have to be honest I have fallen into the "I now hate Microsoft in general because they are forcing their customers down this route" camp - and I have been evangelising for them since the early 1990s. They could have had a [Not Metro] environment in a window in the desktop environment, and they COULD have left the Start button in, but however much you like or dislike the new interface they could have incorporated it without forcing it on customers. It was purely a marketing decision, not a technical one. I am unhappy that the classic desktop graphics have been flattened down purely to accommodate lower power devices - it's not progress, it's devolution. I am unhappy that the Aero interface that I have been loving accommodating these most recent years in now dismissed with a tho
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It has drastically better performance, but I guess that's not a compelling reason to upgrade.
Slightly better performance: http://www.techspot.com/review/561-windows8-vs-windows7/[^]
Paul Sanders http://www.alpinesoft.co.uk
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Yes, here we go again. I realise that this topic has probably been brought up countless times over the past few months but I have to know... what is the general consensus in the developer community about the upcoming release of Windows 8? I know Microsoft wanted to make some big changes to help them break into the tablet market, but is all the ridiculous flipping about between desktop/Metro mode the future or a great big waste of time? Was the removal of the Start Menu from the desktop a step too far? What do you think? All I know is that I won't be scrambling to this new OS for a good while yet if the final release on the 26th of October turns out like I think it might. :|
A programming language is to a programmer what a fine hat is to one who is fond of fancy garden parties. Just don't try wearing any .NET language on your head. Some of them are sharp.
I'll just keep it boxed up in a VM so I can keep an eye on it but I don't plan to use it as a primary O/S on anything I own. I'm OK with having a desktop/laptop and a separate tablet device (iPad3). Win8 offers nothing I can use that I don't already have.
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It has drastically better performance, but I guess that's not a compelling reason to upgrade.
Yes it may be work faster, but after 2 weeks in Win8 I found that I spend more time just to start programs and do daily work. So my productivity becomes worse. I don’t use 100% of computer power I own. So if it does something 5% faster, I probably don’t notice this. Even I skip this year upgrade circle, as I STILL have enough power to do anything I want. On Windows 8 I start using Launchy, to start apps faster without distracting metro start screen. Also switch back to WIN+R for run programs (before just press win and start typing in search what I want to run). Have BIG plan to bring back Windows 7 from disk image in end of September. But from other side I see, that Windows 8, if it success can bring a lot of profit for developers. New OS interface, with no apps. Most of users should spend a lot of money on apps. Almost all areas are open: new file manager, new weather app, photo editing tool… anything… It possible to clone all desktop apps to “metro”, and after upgrade user can’t bring own old apps to this metro screen. I have only one wish: If Microsoft make possible have development of Metro apps on Windows 7 with testing/running in Win8 VM. Right now I don’t see way to create “metro” project on Windows 7.
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As with any new release of Visual Studio, Windows, some language or some database server or just about anything else, I always think, geez, what I really want is something a lot simpler. I probably don't use 90% of VS's features - syntax highlighting, solution management, debugging. That's it. The rest just gets in the way, and I try to configure the environment to minimize that (no task window, compiler output set to "quiet", automatic "show me the output window" when compiling, etc.) The OS is like that too. There are so many brain-dead things about Windows. I have to select a list of music in reverse order (bottom to top) to then press Enter and have them play in top-to-bottom order. Most of the OS either gets in the way or doesn't support how I want to do things, which is why I end up installing things like Fences and Xplorer2. So no, I don't want my OS to be styled after some commuter subway / bus / train signage. I don't want it to act like a tablet (where it makes more sense) to display everything in full screen mode. I have 3 monitors and dozen or more windows opened often enough, not including browser tabs. I don't want to switch to "desktop mode" or whatever they call it, giving me the impression that I'm a retard for reverting back to the "old" way of doing things, but then again, to run ANY of the programs I want to actually use, I have to use the "retarded" way of doing things. Where's the logic in that? Metro is just another "dumb it down" interface. If a client wants something written in Metro, then sure, pay me the bucks and I'll have fun learning more, but personally, it's not for me on the desktop. I'm sure I wouldn't have any problems with it on a tablet or phone, because in that context, it makes more sense, because of the ergonomics of the device. That should be the driving factor, IMO. Marc
Couldn't have said it better myself, Marc.
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Yes, here we go again. I realise that this topic has probably been brought up countless times over the past few months but I have to know... what is the general consensus in the developer community about the upcoming release of Windows 8? I know Microsoft wanted to make some big changes to help them break into the tablet market, but is all the ridiculous flipping about between desktop/Metro mode the future or a great big waste of time? Was the removal of the Start Menu from the desktop a step too far? What do you think? All I know is that I won't be scrambling to this new OS for a good while yet if the final release on the 26th of October turns out like I think it might. :|
A programming language is to a programmer what a fine hat is to one who is fond of fancy garden parties. Just don't try wearing any .NET language on your head. Some of them are sharp.
It would be a shame if that proves to be the case, as it really is much better. The following article is one of the best I've read on other aspects than the NewUI: Windows 8 - A benchmark for Music Production[^]
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Yes, here we go again. I realise that this topic has probably been brought up countless times over the past few months but I have to know... what is the general consensus in the developer community about the upcoming release of Windows 8? I know Microsoft wanted to make some big changes to help them break into the tablet market, but is all the ridiculous flipping about between desktop/Metro mode the future or a great big waste of time? Was the removal of the Start Menu from the desktop a step too far? What do you think? All I know is that I won't be scrambling to this new OS for a good while yet if the final release on the 26th of October turns out like I think it might. :|
A programming language is to a programmer what a fine hat is to one who is fond of fancy garden parties. Just don't try wearing any .NET language on your head. Some of them are sharp.
I actually like the Metro interface for smart-phones and tablets. And I also believe that Microsoft did a stand-up job with their developmen tools that makes developing applications for those environments very similar to WPF or JavaScript\HTML5. However, Microsoft had no reason to mix the environment with the standard desktop, which is still the favored work/play environment on the pc. Like Apple, Microsoft should have simply developed Windows 8 for devuces as a separate OS leaving a version of Windows 8 strictly for the desktop. Then both versions would have sold. However, what they did, though technically well done, was obviously done from the lunatic fringes from management at the company since there is absolutely no sense of logic behind the decision to merge both interface styles together into a single OS. I hope that Windows 8 does well on the smart devices and it should given the ease of development compared to Apple's ludicrous insistence that Objective-C continue as the prime language for their smart device development. This is where Win 8 will win hands down. Nonetheless, like most professional developers, I am hoping that Win 9 will return us to standard desktop interface on the workstation while splitting off the Metro interface to alone to smart device development endeavors...
Steve Naidamast Black Falcon Software, Inc. blackfalconsoftware@ix.netcom.com
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Windows 8 is great in that it finally gives developers a stage to sell their apps/games. I have been involved with two apps on the Store at the moment. One is my game Game Dev Tycoon[^] and the other a mind mapping app called NovaMind[^]. We've just hit ten thousand downloads on Game Dev Tycoon. This is our first game. We are a new company. I think that potential exposure alone will see a new wave of apps and games and ultimately Windows 8 is targeted at consumers so if consumers are able to get apps that they like Windows 8 will do great.
Founder of Greenheart Games, makers of Game Dev Tycoon (www.playgamedevtycoon.com). Development Manager and C#/WPF developer at novamind.com - www.patrickklug.com
Patrick Klug wrote:
Windows 8 finally gives developers a stage to sell their apps/games.
This is both good and bad, bad because to be there you need to pay for the privilege and some things are not supported (for example, components or libraries), and good, because it gives you an easy showroom so you can be seen by (literally) millions of people, but as someone else point it, Windows 8 (or Metro) wasn't necessary to make a Windows Store (as the OS X App Store demostrates it).
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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Human beings are different, so some people will like the [Not Metro] interface and others won't. Personally I have used it on my 2nd laptop since the first preview and have upgraded through to the final preview all the way along, but I still hate it - I just don't want to be accused of only trying it for an hour and then giving up. Also, as a Windows professional I need to know it regardless of whether I like it or not. I really think that the central issue is with how people's brains work, and that's not written with any kind of "superior" motive. Some people process images better and some people process the words. When I look at the new start page I just see a forest of icons that I have to work through to find what I want, whereas with the W7 Start menu it was hierarchical and so was relatively faster and certainly less frustrating for me. Also, if I try using the Search text box then - again, the way my particular brain works - it takes me a moment to find the words sometimes for what I want which I also find causes a quick break in the flow of activity. Microsoft say that the Start button had largely fallen into disuse, but that really isn't what I have seen and I work with lots of users. It is my opinion that Microsoft have committed a follow-on blunder which I haven't seen discussed yet and I will explain. I don't like the [Not Metro] interface on a desktop, but I do agree that it works much better on a touch tablet device. However, I think that for the many people who fall into the "hate W8" camp from their desktop experience their experience with W8 tablets will have been poisoned, and they will be less interested in going down that route. I might possibly have gone for a [Not Metro] tablet myself at one stage, but I have to be honest I have fallen into the "I now hate Microsoft in general because they are forcing their customers down this route" camp - and I have been evangelising for them since the early 1990s. They could have had a [Not Metro] environment in a window in the desktop environment, and they COULD have left the Start button in, but however much you like or dislike the new interface they could have incorporated it without forcing it on customers. It was purely a marketing decision, not a technical one. I am unhappy that the classic desktop graphics have been flattened down purely to accommodate lower power devices - it's not progress, it's devolution. I am unhappy that the Aero interface that I have been loving accommodating these most recent years in now dismissed with a tho
Member 2980957 wrote:
Is it really worth taking the time to learn a new technology that could well be replaced again quite soon?
I don't think this technology would be replaced, mainly because Microsoft is pushing it in front of everyone and everywhere (Phones, Computers, Tablets, Xbox, etc.), with the ultimate goal to have a common interface in every screen they can control. Even if Windows 8 flops in the Desktop, they may spin off the Modern UI side and use it only in the tablet space.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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Yes it may be work faster, but after 2 weeks in Win8 I found that I spend more time just to start programs and do daily work. So my productivity becomes worse. I don’t use 100% of computer power I own. So if it does something 5% faster, I probably don’t notice this. Even I skip this year upgrade circle, as I STILL have enough power to do anything I want. On Windows 8 I start using Launchy, to start apps faster without distracting metro start screen. Also switch back to WIN+R for run programs (before just press win and start typing in search what I want to run). Have BIG plan to bring back Windows 7 from disk image in end of September. But from other side I see, that Windows 8, if it success can bring a lot of profit for developers. New OS interface, with no apps. Most of users should spend a lot of money on apps. Almost all areas are open: new file manager, new weather app, photo editing tool… anything… It possible to clone all desktop apps to “metro”, and after upgrade user can’t bring own old apps to this metro screen. I have only one wish: If Microsoft make possible have development of Metro apps on Windows 7 with testing/running in Win8 VM. Right now I don’t see way to create “metro” project on Windows 7.
vitalijs.vaznais wrote:
but after 2 weeks in Win8 I found that I spend more time just to start programs and do daily work
Why? In Windows 8 if you know the name of the app, you hit the Windows key and start typing, just like in the old start menu it will do a search and the more letters you type, the smaller the list gets. Or you could just re-arrange the start screen to put your most used apps in the left most groups as described in this article: Organize Tiles into Groups on the Metro Start Screen in Windows 8[^] Or you could add stuff to the Windows + X menu: How to Add Items to the New Win+X Menu in Windows 8[^] There are lots of additional ways to customize it to make it more easy for you to use, just poke through some of the articles here: The Best Articles for Using and Customizing Windows 8[^] Hope this helps!
Mike Poz
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Yes, here we go again. I realise that this topic has probably been brought up countless times over the past few months but I have to know... what is the general consensus in the developer community about the upcoming release of Windows 8? I know Microsoft wanted to make some big changes to help them break into the tablet market, but is all the ridiculous flipping about between desktop/Metro mode the future or a great big waste of time? Was the removal of the Start Menu from the desktop a step too far? What do you think? All I know is that I won't be scrambling to this new OS for a good while yet if the final release on the 26th of October turns out like I think it might. :|
A programming language is to a programmer what a fine hat is to one who is fond of fancy garden parties. Just don't try wearing any .NET language on your head. Some of them are sharp.
At first I hated the start screen, but then I came to think of it as being presented with the start menu at boot, rather than having to press the windows key or click the orb, and it started to make sense. It boots faster, presents you with the start menu as soon as it's finished booting, click whatever and you get taken to the desktop and away you go. Not a drastic change from the way it used to be done. when you want to go back to the start menu, you click the bottom left corner of the taskbar. It is both good and bad, the screen transitions will give some people a headache i'm sure (literally and figuratively) but it's not as bad as it used to be now that I've got my head around the start screen being the new start menu. Maybe i'm just used to it, who knows. What I do know is that with the requirements being so small compared to previous versions of Windows, it makes the over all system more stable, and gives me more resources to clog up with Dev environments and such before the system becomes unstable. None of which are reasons to say Win 8 is a MUST HAVE, it's a nice little upgrade in terms of stability and lack of resource hogging, but definitely not a must have upgrade. The jury is still out until I play with the full version rather than the RP version.
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vitalijs.vaznais wrote:
but after 2 weeks in Win8 I found that I spend more time just to start programs and do daily work
Why? In Windows 8 if you know the name of the app, you hit the Windows key and start typing, just like in the old start menu it will do a search and the more letters you type, the smaller the list gets. Or you could just re-arrange the start screen to put your most used apps in the left most groups as described in this article: Organize Tiles into Groups on the Metro Start Screen in Windows 8[^] Or you could add stuff to the Windows + X menu: How to Add Items to the New Win+X Menu in Windows 8[^] There are lots of additional ways to customize it to make it more easy for you to use, just poke through some of the articles here: The Best Articles for Using and Customizing Windows 8[^] Hope this helps!
Mike Poz
Now lets see what was the name of that app again? Man, if I didn't where a name tag, I wouldn't remember my own name. Not sure how well Metro will handle it (I could never get any of the 3 previews to install in a VM with 2MB of memory and a 30GB virtual HD on Win. 7). But running Ubuntu Unity, which does the same thing, I was finding I had to search and search as I either mistyped the name or entered the "wrong name". A lot easier to navigate the drop down menus than to try and remember what something was called - especially if you only use it sporadically.
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SixOfTheClock wrote:
I won't be scrambling to this new OS for a good while
Same here. I do not have any real justifiable reasons to do an upgrade to it.
"Any sort of work in VB6 is bound to provide several WTF moments." - Christian Graus
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Now lets see what was the name of that app again? Man, if I didn't where a name tag, I wouldn't remember my own name. Not sure how well Metro will handle it (I could never get any of the 3 previews to install in a VM with 2MB of memory and a 30GB virtual HD on Win. 7). But running Ubuntu Unity, which does the same thing, I was finding I had to search and search as I either mistyped the name or entered the "wrong name". A lot easier to navigate the drop down menus than to try and remember what something was called - especially if you only use it sporadically.
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How about typing a keyword instead of an app name? Example: "Photo" on my Windows 7 computer brings up all of the Adobe apps plus all the Microsoft apps installed. Just a thought.
Mike Poz
Can I type, "Thing that I use when I want to edit that oddball file type" and have it pop up something useful? Or maybe, "I think it starts with a P.. or it might have a P in it's name", but knows that the word has no P in it and instead starts with a G. If the Metro interface can do that I'm sold.
ragnaroknrol: Yes, but comparing a rabid wolverine gnawing on your face while stabbing you with a fountain pen to Vista is likely to make the wolverine look good, so it isn't exactly that big of a compliment.
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Yes, here we go again. I realise that this topic has probably been brought up countless times over the past few months but I have to know... what is the general consensus in the developer community about the upcoming release of Windows 8? I know Microsoft wanted to make some big changes to help them break into the tablet market, but is all the ridiculous flipping about between desktop/Metro mode the future or a great big waste of time? Was the removal of the Start Menu from the desktop a step too far? What do you think? All I know is that I won't be scrambling to this new OS for a good while yet if the final release on the 26th of October turns out like I think it might. :|
A programming language is to a programmer what a fine hat is to one who is fond of fancy garden parties. Just don't try wearing any .NET language on your head. Some of them are sharp.
As developer and user, I want interface that is familiar to me. Win 8 makes some useless changes (not just remove the Start button and hide many functions). I quote an example: you cannot find "Backup annd Restore" in Control Panel. They rename it completely! Users need to imagine some other phrases for the same function. I like to find the same function of newer version in the same location (and also familar name) of the older version. If Win 8 has improvement in certain functions, I don't think it is a good idea to use a completely new name.
petersgyoung
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Deserves a five for being so well argued, but I still have serious doubts.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
I've been using Win 8 now as my main O/S since the RTM version came out, before that only in a VM. I'm finding absolutely no problems with the Start Screen - indeed as I get used to it I find I prefer it to the old start menu now. I've had absolutely no problems with applications - all the usual dev tools work as well or better than on Win 7. There is a learning curve, but I suspect most computer users will prefer it - technie types are generally more resistant to change than the community in general - I placed it in from of my mother and she was blown away by the new UI, so for casual users the start screen and Metro/NewUI interface is more compelling. All the stuff she's likely to do is just there right away. The one thing I would really like to see is... actually I may try and make an app for that, so I'll keep the idea to myself for a while ;-)
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After reading various comments such as this I wonder how much good reading all those articles did me. Looking back, I think none of them commented much - or even mentioned - desktop mode. At least, even if they did, I recall nothing about it. I know that I'll never get used to Metro - just by looking at those screenshots I've seen I know I don't want that kind of screaming wall of ads shouting down at me from a 24 inch screen, thank you very much. But desktop mode may be quite agreeable, who knows?
What screaming wall of ad's is that - I've been using it for ages and never encountered them, unless I go to the marketplace, but that's to be expected.
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Unfortunately, with all the tools I have to use, it takes a lot longer than two weeks for me to get a new system fully "ready for use". Moving to a new operating system is even more of a major task, where installation and licensing pitfalls can occur at every step, so I need a much better reason than just "try it out".
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
if you have win 7 installed you can do a upgrade. i know many are against this but it can prove to be a big time saver. i did it on one pc and worked really ok. i had to confirm one time and then it went automatically and the whole thing took less than 1 hour. i've been running it for two weeks and is really ok. the exception is some hamachi (vpn software) that does not play nice with w8 yet so does not work. this is however "low level stuff". most of the apps will just run.