How Long Will Programmers Be So Well-Paid?
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I found the author's comments so off-putting, I actually took the trouble to respond at TechCrunch. First time I've ever commented on a blog/article outside CP! /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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CDP1802 wrote:
those who know everything far better than you do?
I think I'll quote Bjarne on this one: People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who know we don't It can hit both ways though, and most people really aren't all that interested. Developing good software is hard, and most people want "easy".
CDP1802 wrote:
They will interpret that as an effort to disrupt the team and call you a selfish prima donna.
If you can, make sure you are not part of "the team". If they want to fail, be all means, let them do so without your help.
CDP1802 wrote:
It's hard not to look bad under those conditions.
As you mentioned, sooner or later, inquisition comes knocking - if it's later, they are probably looking for blood - and your previously "awkward" questions may just be what they are looking for. Depending on the scenario, you could even do it the "Right Way™" on your own time - if the your company needs it bad enough, it'll be worth your while. Just make sure that this is not about revenge - so be careful to make sure that you get across that you did it with the companys best interest in mind - and that you gave the initial effort your best shot - something that will require a wee bit of documentation, and a certain level of presentation skills.
CDP1802 wrote:
they were good at sitting in meetings, writing all kinds of documents for anybody but us
That works for a while, but in the long run management will usually notice - it may take some time though.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
Espen Harlinn wrote:
Developing good software is hard, and most people want "easy".
Much worse. They want it to work perfectly, even if they asked for some miracles. And they want to have it yesterday, for free if possible. They want it easy? A good way would be to use the team's experience and listen when somebody wants more information or sees a problem. That's what the scrum meeting is for, and not some kind of morning prayer which is treated as a ritual where everybody lies to the others about how happy he is.
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Espen Harlinn wrote:
What makes a developer a good developer?
From the hiring company's perspective, a good dev is one that meets their expectations and requirements. It's not a one-shoe fits all situation here.
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
Nish Sivakumar wrote:
It's not a one-shoe fits all situation here
No, definitely not, but I feel it's an increasingly important question - even if it's impossible to provide a good answer. The skills we have differs wildly - and they are mostly aquired after leaving university, or whatever educational institution we've attended - and they are pretty hard to measure. We also, as a group, tend to get access to far more critical information than most people realize - which have aspects that's worth exploring.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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Espen Harlinn wrote:
Developing good software is hard, and most people want "easy".
Much worse. They want it to work perfectly, even if they asked for some miracles. And they want to have it yesterday, for free if possible. They want it easy? A good way would be to use the team's experience and listen when somebody wants more information or sees a problem. That's what the scrum meeting is for, and not some kind of morning prayer which is treated as a ritual where everybody lies to the others about how happy he is.
CDP1802 wrote:
That's what the scrum meeting is for
I'm not sure scrum, or any other agile methodology, can be taught - it's what you may get after a significant period of time in a healthy workplace environment. The most fundamental ingreedient of any agile methodology is trust - and if that's not in place, it's just a futile exercise.
CDP1802 wrote:
morning prayer which is treated as a ritual where everybody lies to the others about how happy he is.
Not a happy situation - the morning meating is for raising and clarifying issues, determining actions and delegating resposibility - on a minor level. If you have major issues, they belong in another setting - perhaps a full project meeting involving all the stakeholders. If this isn't feasible, you're not doing scrum - just some bastardization intended to prove you're an agile organization. If the customers can't be brought into this, you - as an organization - really have a fundamental trust problem which in time will manifest itself in terms of a significant amount of trouble meeting expectations and requirements.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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CDP1802 wrote:
That's what the scrum meeting is for
I'm not sure scrum, or any other agile methodology, can be taught - it's what you may get after a significant period of time in a healthy workplace environment. The most fundamental ingreedient of any agile methodology is trust - and if that's not in place, it's just a futile exercise.
CDP1802 wrote:
morning prayer which is treated as a ritual where everybody lies to the others about how happy he is.
Not a happy situation - the morning meating is for raising and clarifying issues, determining actions and delegating resposibility - on a minor level. If you have major issues, they belong in another setting - perhaps a full project meeting involving all the stakeholders. If this isn't feasible, you're not doing scrum - just some bastardization intended to prove you're an agile organization. If the customers can't be brought into this, you - as an organization - really have a fundamental trust problem which in time will manifest itself in terms of a significant amount of trouble meeting expectations and requirements.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
I always called it a cargo cult. Blindly imitating some methodology without any understanding, degrading every part to a hollow ritual and expecting success to arrive by magic. And if its not successful, then that's obviously the doing of the unbelievers. SaR. Software as Religion.
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I always called it a cargo cult. Blindly imitating some methodology without any understanding, degrading every part to a hollow ritual and expecting success to arrive by magic. And if its not successful, then that's obviously the doing of the unbelievers. SaR. Software as Religion.
CDP1802 wrote:
Software as Religion
Yes, we're seeing too much of that these days - and "Software Evangelist" has become a "respected" profession.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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CDP1802 wrote:
Software as Religion
Yes, we're seeing too much of that these days - and "Software Evangelist" has become a "respected" profession.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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Too bad. If any religious figure ever fit to me, then it would be the apostle Thomas. I always ask questions.
I'm off to a dinner party - t'was an interesting exchange - hope getting some of it off your chest helps, at least I've often found that it helps ...
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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I'm off to a dinner party - t'was an interesting exchange - hope getting some of it off your chest helps, at least I've often found that it helps ...
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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I can't speak for other places but where I come from, programming isn't a popular profession and engineering degrees aren't easy to come by, (I'm from Norway). There are some universities which offer application development oriented degrees, but mostly its the title of engineer that get you the good salaries. But getting a Bachelors degree in computer engineering isn't just hard, it's only cream of the crop that get admitted in the first place. So though you have kids in their late teens dreaming of making their own software or games, they can't get in to the university programs due to grade requirements or not at a sufficient subject tier in math and physics. The result is that you have people with the drive and talent, but without any way to get into the job they want, they settle for something else. So if you ever come across someone with an IT Civil Engineering degree, (master's degree in engineering), from Norway, he or she will be the best of the best; but it leaves little opertunety for someone who'll settle for being a pure programmer. So I think that having programming as a vocation/profession track in high school, might be the solution, (this might not translate the way I mean it but it'll have to do), so that it's a professional skill easier to acquire. (engineering degrees need not be easier to get). that's my two cents worth! -frank
Frank Reidar Haugen wrote:
he or she will be the best of the best; but it leaves little opertunety for someone who'll settle for being a pure programmer.
You are saying that for some reason most or even all companies in Norway will only hire engineers to create programs? Is there a law that requires that? Or a cultural meme that requires it? Should note that it certainly isn't true in the US.
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Code monkeys will continue to get cheaper, as languages and libraries improve and even grade school kids are learning to make a computer jump through hoops. People who can take a problem, analyze it and develop a solution, then create a set of instructions (requirements) clear enough for code monkeys to program against will only become more rare and valuable. There will be bonuses for those few who are equally proficient in both the hardware and software realms, and special perks for that tiny minority who still understand math.
Will Rogers never met me.
Roger Wright wrote:
Code monkeys will continue to get cheaper, as languages and libraries improve and even grade school kids are learning to make a computer jump through hoops. People who can take a problem, analyze it and develop a solution, then create a set of instructions (requirements) clear enough for code monkeys to program against will only become more rare and valuable.
I seriously doubt that. If that was true then out sourcing would work. What you description in the above left out is the ability to organize, design and communicate. And the experience and discipline to make that work. And in the development space that simply does not exist (those with all of the skills are so few in number that it is effectively zero.)
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http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/27/write-code-get-paid/[^] Interesting read! Specially the point about how it's so damn hard to hire a good developer.
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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Roger Wright wrote:
Code monkeys will continue to get cheaper, as languages and libraries improve and even grade school kids are learning to make a computer jump through hoops. People who can take a problem, analyze it and develop a solution, then create a set of instructions (requirements) clear enough for code monkeys to program against will only become more rare and valuable.
I seriously doubt that. If that was true then out sourcing would work. What you description in the above left out is the ability to organize, design and communicate. And the experience and discipline to make that work. And in the development space that simply does not exist (those with all of the skills are so few in number that it is effectively zero.)
Code Monkey vs Software Engineers talk sounds like speech given by academic who never manages to catch up. Don't get me wrong, I work in field where it requires a lot of math and very strict standards and I graduate with master degree from top Canadian university - but for most part of the day what they teaches you in school is irrelevant.
dev
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Frank Reidar Haugen wrote:
he or she will be the best of the best; but it leaves little opertunety for someone who'll settle for being a pure programmer.
You are saying that for some reason most or even all companies in Norway will only hire engineers to create programs? Is there a law that requires that? Or a cultural meme that requires it? Should note that it certainly isn't true in the US.
Basically yes! No law, but it seems it's become a cultural thing. It might stem from back before the eighties IT was a "woman's"-field. The hardware side of IT was delegated to a sub-field of electrician, and then when software development was introduced in our universities and collages it was an engineering field. So all who now are the managers of IT-departments in big companies are engineers from this period, and so it's become a "club". Let's not disregard a strong union, which lobbies hard to prevent engineering-subjects to become available to "mundanes". And so big companies like National Oilwell Varco, (the Norwegian branch of the US company), only hire engineers for programming work. So you have a big need, and a minuscule supply of engineers so an average software engineer can expect about 120-150 thousand dollars straight out of school, with a guaranteed job. I am a believer in introducing programming at elementary school, making it a universal skill, as the future is in the hands of programmers. As I see it, in 50 years, not knowing how to code, will be like not knowing English in today's world. I think the need for programmers won't drop. Unless we manage to make self-improving code, as new technologies lead to new types of software needed. We haven't cracked the key to "thinking machines". So when we do it will be trillions of lines of code will it take? A flying robot like the JSF has only 5.6 million lines of code. So unless we go in to saturate the job-market with programmers, it will remain a popular field. tried to have some brevity, but I failed :~ -frank
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I tried google once, didn't get a reply, as usual. Might as well try the rest I suppose, no harm in trying :)
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http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/27/write-code-get-paid/[^] Interesting read! Specially the point about how it's so damn hard to hire a good developer.
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
It is an interesting read. I think, like most skilled labour, the 'A-listers' will continue to be well paid, because so few people have the capacity and motivation to actually be good at anything. People who will put in the hours to know about code patterns, agile practices, architecture, code smells, debugging techniques, clean code, etc etc, are rare. If you can demonstrate that you are one of those (which also involves having people skills and good communication) then you should be set – companies will be nice to you because you are a valuable asset that is difficult to replace. The idea that software engineering can be done by a monkey with a diploma from the Internet University of Nowhere is a strange one, and dealing with software that's been constructed by such people (from one of the large Indian outsourcing shops) just shows up how untrue it is. Clients will still pay for quality and quality doesn't come from just anyone. Would you expect a bridge to hire people off the street to design and build it? No, and the architecture and engineering analogy will just about stretch this far. And $100k+, huh? I need to agitate for a big rise :)
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"But why has the supply of good engineers remained so strained? We're talking about work that can, in principle, be performed by anyone anywhere with a half-decent computer and a decent Internet connection." R-i-i-i-ght. :) /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
that, and, "Because when you’re poor, which most of the world is, money is more important than passion." [emphasis mine.] what an asinine thing to say. actually it's f*cking stupid. too bad the article has the line you mentioned and this one because the author makes some good points otherwise.
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that, and, "Because when you’re poor, which most of the world is, money is more important than passion." [emphasis mine.] what an asinine thing to say. actually it's f*cking stupid. too bad the article has the line you mentioned and this one because the author makes some good points otherwise.
The author's profile declares he has a decade of experience as a software engineer. His bio at his own website states he's worked 2 years and 8 months as a developer. Maybe it's the new math. :| /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/27/write-code-get-paid/[^] Interesting read! Specially the point about how it's so damn hard to hire a good developer.
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
It's apparently very hard to hire a programmer these days. We've been trying to hire a fairly good but not outstanding programmer recently: one who's somewhat inexperienced (thus not outrageously expensive like my good self!) but shows good mindset and an aptitude for learning... the shower of filth that's walked through our doors is mindblowing. One guy was actually perfect for the job - a bit too inexperienced but very smart and willing to learn - but as soon as he went to hand in his notice at his current position, they dropped a load of money on him, and he stayed. I guess good programmers are rare enough that whoever hires them recognizes their value and will do anything to keep them...
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It's apparently very hard to hire a programmer these days. We've been trying to hire a fairly good but not outstanding programmer recently: one who's somewhat inexperienced (thus not outrageously expensive like my good self!) but shows good mindset and an aptitude for learning... the shower of filth that's walked through our doors is mindblowing. One guy was actually perfect for the job - a bit too inexperienced but very smart and willing to learn - but as soon as he went to hand in his notice at his current position, they dropped a load of money on him, and he stayed. I guess good programmers are rare enough that whoever hires them recognizes their value and will do anything to keep them...
Dan Sutton wrote:
but as soon as he went to hand in his notice at his current position, they dropped a load of money on him, and he stayed. I guess good programmers are rare enough that whoever hires them recognizes their value and will do anything to keep them...
Yeah, I am not surprised at this.
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
