How Long Will Programmers Be So Well-Paid?
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I'm off to a dinner party - t'was an interesting exchange - hope getting some of it off your chest helps, at least I've often found that it helps ...
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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I can't speak for other places but where I come from, programming isn't a popular profession and engineering degrees aren't easy to come by, (I'm from Norway). There are some universities which offer application development oriented degrees, but mostly its the title of engineer that get you the good salaries. But getting a Bachelors degree in computer engineering isn't just hard, it's only cream of the crop that get admitted in the first place. So though you have kids in their late teens dreaming of making their own software or games, they can't get in to the university programs due to grade requirements or not at a sufficient subject tier in math and physics. The result is that you have people with the drive and talent, but without any way to get into the job they want, they settle for something else. So if you ever come across someone with an IT Civil Engineering degree, (master's degree in engineering), from Norway, he or she will be the best of the best; but it leaves little opertunety for someone who'll settle for being a pure programmer. So I think that having programming as a vocation/profession track in high school, might be the solution, (this might not translate the way I mean it but it'll have to do), so that it's a professional skill easier to acquire. (engineering degrees need not be easier to get). that's my two cents worth! -frank
Frank Reidar Haugen wrote:
he or she will be the best of the best; but it leaves little opertunety for someone who'll settle for being a pure programmer.
You are saying that for some reason most or even all companies in Norway will only hire engineers to create programs? Is there a law that requires that? Or a cultural meme that requires it? Should note that it certainly isn't true in the US.
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Code monkeys will continue to get cheaper, as languages and libraries improve and even grade school kids are learning to make a computer jump through hoops. People who can take a problem, analyze it and develop a solution, then create a set of instructions (requirements) clear enough for code monkeys to program against will only become more rare and valuable. There will be bonuses for those few who are equally proficient in both the hardware and software realms, and special perks for that tiny minority who still understand math.
Will Rogers never met me.
Roger Wright wrote:
Code monkeys will continue to get cheaper, as languages and libraries improve and even grade school kids are learning to make a computer jump through hoops. People who can take a problem, analyze it and develop a solution, then create a set of instructions (requirements) clear enough for code monkeys to program against will only become more rare and valuable.
I seriously doubt that. If that was true then out sourcing would work. What you description in the above left out is the ability to organize, design and communicate. And the experience and discipline to make that work. And in the development space that simply does not exist (those with all of the skills are so few in number that it is effectively zero.)
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http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/27/write-code-get-paid/[^] Interesting read! Specially the point about how it's so damn hard to hire a good developer.
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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Roger Wright wrote:
Code monkeys will continue to get cheaper, as languages and libraries improve and even grade school kids are learning to make a computer jump through hoops. People who can take a problem, analyze it and develop a solution, then create a set of instructions (requirements) clear enough for code monkeys to program against will only become more rare and valuable.
I seriously doubt that. If that was true then out sourcing would work. What you description in the above left out is the ability to organize, design and communicate. And the experience and discipline to make that work. And in the development space that simply does not exist (those with all of the skills are so few in number that it is effectively zero.)
Code Monkey vs Software Engineers talk sounds like speech given by academic who never manages to catch up. Don't get me wrong, I work in field where it requires a lot of math and very strict standards and I graduate with master degree from top Canadian university - but for most part of the day what they teaches you in school is irrelevant.
dev
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Frank Reidar Haugen wrote:
he or she will be the best of the best; but it leaves little opertunety for someone who'll settle for being a pure programmer.
You are saying that for some reason most or even all companies in Norway will only hire engineers to create programs? Is there a law that requires that? Or a cultural meme that requires it? Should note that it certainly isn't true in the US.
Basically yes! No law, but it seems it's become a cultural thing. It might stem from back before the eighties IT was a "woman's"-field. The hardware side of IT was delegated to a sub-field of electrician, and then when software development was introduced in our universities and collages it was an engineering field. So all who now are the managers of IT-departments in big companies are engineers from this period, and so it's become a "club". Let's not disregard a strong union, which lobbies hard to prevent engineering-subjects to become available to "mundanes". And so big companies like National Oilwell Varco, (the Norwegian branch of the US company), only hire engineers for programming work. So you have a big need, and a minuscule supply of engineers so an average software engineer can expect about 120-150 thousand dollars straight out of school, with a guaranteed job. I am a believer in introducing programming at elementary school, making it a universal skill, as the future is in the hands of programmers. As I see it, in 50 years, not knowing how to code, will be like not knowing English in today's world. I think the need for programmers won't drop. Unless we manage to make self-improving code, as new technologies lead to new types of software needed. We haven't cracked the key to "thinking machines". So when we do it will be trillions of lines of code will it take? A flying robot like the JSF has only 5.6 million lines of code. So unless we go in to saturate the job-market with programmers, it will remain a popular field. tried to have some brevity, but I failed :~ -frank
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I tried google once, didn't get a reply, as usual. Might as well try the rest I suppose, no harm in trying :)
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http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/27/write-code-get-paid/[^] Interesting read! Specially the point about how it's so damn hard to hire a good developer.
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
It is an interesting read. I think, like most skilled labour, the 'A-listers' will continue to be well paid, because so few people have the capacity and motivation to actually be good at anything. People who will put in the hours to know about code patterns, agile practices, architecture, code smells, debugging techniques, clean code, etc etc, are rare. If you can demonstrate that you are one of those (which also involves having people skills and good communication) then you should be set – companies will be nice to you because you are a valuable asset that is difficult to replace. The idea that software engineering can be done by a monkey with a diploma from the Internet University of Nowhere is a strange one, and dealing with software that's been constructed by such people (from one of the large Indian outsourcing shops) just shows up how untrue it is. Clients will still pay for quality and quality doesn't come from just anyone. Would you expect a bridge to hire people off the street to design and build it? No, and the architecture and engineering analogy will just about stretch this far. And $100k+, huh? I need to agitate for a big rise :)
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"But why has the supply of good engineers remained so strained? We're talking about work that can, in principle, be performed by anyone anywhere with a half-decent computer and a decent Internet connection." R-i-i-i-ght. :) /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
that, and, "Because when you’re poor, which most of the world is, money is more important than passion." [emphasis mine.] what an asinine thing to say. actually it's f*cking stupid. too bad the article has the line you mentioned and this one because the author makes some good points otherwise.
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that, and, "Because when you’re poor, which most of the world is, money is more important than passion." [emphasis mine.] what an asinine thing to say. actually it's f*cking stupid. too bad the article has the line you mentioned and this one because the author makes some good points otherwise.
The author's profile declares he has a decade of experience as a software engineer. His bio at his own website states he's worked 2 years and 8 months as a developer. Maybe it's the new math. :| /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/27/write-code-get-paid/[^] Interesting read! Specially the point about how it's so damn hard to hire a good developer.
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
It's apparently very hard to hire a programmer these days. We've been trying to hire a fairly good but not outstanding programmer recently: one who's somewhat inexperienced (thus not outrageously expensive like my good self!) but shows good mindset and an aptitude for learning... the shower of filth that's walked through our doors is mindblowing. One guy was actually perfect for the job - a bit too inexperienced but very smart and willing to learn - but as soon as he went to hand in his notice at his current position, they dropped a load of money on him, and he stayed. I guess good programmers are rare enough that whoever hires them recognizes their value and will do anything to keep them...
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It's apparently very hard to hire a programmer these days. We've been trying to hire a fairly good but not outstanding programmer recently: one who's somewhat inexperienced (thus not outrageously expensive like my good self!) but shows good mindset and an aptitude for learning... the shower of filth that's walked through our doors is mindblowing. One guy was actually perfect for the job - a bit too inexperienced but very smart and willing to learn - but as soon as he went to hand in his notice at his current position, they dropped a load of money on him, and he stayed. I guess good programmers are rare enough that whoever hires them recognizes their value and will do anything to keep them...
Dan Sutton wrote:
but as soon as he went to hand in his notice at his current position, they dropped a load of money on him, and he stayed. I guess good programmers are rare enough that whoever hires them recognizes their value and will do anything to keep them...
Yeah, I am not surprised at this.
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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Hi Harold, It seems to me that the question that needs to be asked is: "how do those that do get an interview for one of the better jobs" at specific companies achieve that ? I'd try to learn everything I could about each specific company I was planning to apply to: about who they hire; what the steps in the hiring process are (or, if they out-source pre-hire screening: who does that); what is the form of initial contact from a job applicant they expect: cover letter including a link to resume; resume + cv ... etc. In most cases I would write a very brief, specific, cover letter based on everything I had learned about the company, and "tailored to" the position I was applying for. Unless, of course, I knew that "cover letters" were not wanted by the specific company. Such a cover letter would express, in two, or, three, short paragraphs: 1. Why my experience qualifies me to be a good potential employee, for this particular project or task. 2. Why I wanted to work for this company, on this particular project or task. 3. That I am available, and ready/eager, to go to work for this company, on this particular project or task. If you have doubts about the style, and/or relevance, of your CV, or Resume, have you considered getting professional editorial assistance ? best, Bill
~ Confused by Windows 8 ? This may help: [^] !
Excellent advice, i would take it the next time i look for a job, thanks!
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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Nish Sivakumar wrote:
hard to hire a good developer
What makes a developer a good developer?
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
Being like me... :laugh:
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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"But why has the supply of good engineers remained so strained? We're talking about work that can, in principle, be performed by anyone anywhere with a half-decent computer and a decent Internet connection." R-i-i-i-ght. :) /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
Ravi Bhavnani wrote:
We're talking about work that can, in principle, be performed by anyone anywhere with a half-decent computer and a decent Internet connection.
That's a big problem where i live, here everyone expect you to be as expensive as his 12 years old nephew who knows how to program, because he likes computers and can do web sites (with Wordpress or, good forbid, FrontPage)
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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I'll freely admit that on a number of occasions I've gone ahead and actually trusted a few people in the workplace - and looking back, I can't remember that anything good ever came out of it. Lessons learned: 1. Do things in writing - if it isn't written, it might as well never have happened. 2. If you're going to do something extraordinary, will it be worth the effort? If somebody really has f**ked up - make sure that it's well documented, that the initial effort is shot to **ll and that there is absolutely nothing worth saving - in other words make sure you get the freedom, time and funding to do things the "Right Way™". 3. Never assume that people around you understand what you are doing, and remeber that the original team will, if given the chance, stab you in the back. Logic seems to be that it wasn't their fault things didn't work out - somehow it was you fault, and besides you are making them look bad. 4. Make sure the project manager understands that his role is to facilitate your work, make sure the other team members understands their roles. Write down a plan, develop an architecture and make sure that the stakeholders agree that this is what they want/need. This is were standardized procedures has more than one point in their favor. This is the dark side of software development: Everybody wants to have their say; whether they know what they are talking about or not - and people are at their most dangerous when they don't.
CDP1802 wrote:
expect the inquisition
Always expect them to come knocking, and with a few procedures in place, it can even turn out to be a good thing.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
Espen Harlinn wrote:
I'll freely admit that on a number of occasions I've gone ahead and actually trusted a few people in the workplace - and looking back, I can't remember that anything good ever came out of it.
It seems that the problem is that you not trusted the right people. :)
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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It is an interesting read. I think, like most skilled labour, the 'A-listers' will continue to be well paid, because so few people have the capacity and motivation to actually be good at anything. People who will put in the hours to know about code patterns, agile practices, architecture, code smells, debugging techniques, clean code, etc etc, are rare. If you can demonstrate that you are one of those (which also involves having people skills and good communication) then you should be set – companies will be nice to you because you are a valuable asset that is difficult to replace. The idea that software engineering can be done by a monkey with a diploma from the Internet University of Nowhere is a strange one, and dealing with software that's been constructed by such people (from one of the large Indian outsourcing shops) just shows up how untrue it is. Clients will still pay for quality and quality doesn't come from just anyone. Would you expect a bridge to hire people off the street to design and build it? No, and the architecture and engineering analogy will just about stretch this far. And $100k+, huh? I need to agitate for a big rise :)
BobJanova wrote:
A monkey with a diploma from the Internet University of Nowhere
That made me laugh, althought i prefer the University of Life. :laugh:
BobJanova wrote:
Clients will still pay for quality
Not always, and not all clients. Probably just big companies and a few that still know what quality is, the majority just want it to work and be cheap; the best example is that many things are done in China just because it's cheaper, they work (while they last), and very few people complain about it.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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Ravi Bhavnani wrote:
We're talking about work that can, in principle, be performed by anyone anywhere with a half-decent computer and a decent Internet connection.
That's a big problem where i live, here everyone expect you to be as expensive as his 12 years old nephew who knows how to program, because he likes computers and can do web sites (with Wordpress or, good forbid, FrontPage)
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/27/write-code-get-paid/[^] Interesting read! Specially the point about how it's so damn hard to hire a good developer.
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
Programming is like nursing; great pay right out of school. But 20 years later, salary compression and technical obsolescence means you're making less than 1.6x the current years' starting wage. Think about it. If starting wages are $125k, where are the $250k jobs for experienced talent. Have you ever seen one? Programming is a great gig, but not such a great career, and getting less and less good by the measure of top salary / starting salary. Programming is a big field. There are lots of jobs in "programming", but not so many in "PHP Programming", "C# Programming", etc. It's like being a doctor; you can't just switch from opthalmology to thoracic surgery to take a new job. The more disciplines you keep up on, the harder it is to achieve mastery of any. The red-hot skill in programming changes frequently and (imho) unpredictably. Hard to know what skill will sell well 10 years in the future. The reason not everybody can get into Google is that Google has a very specific idea of what an A-list programmer looks like. The guys making that top wage are Google (or Facebook or whatever) A-listers. Everybody else makes considerably less. Just like in professional sports, not everyone is a superstar, and just like in Hollywood, not every talent gets discovered. Google has a voracious appetite for the particular kind of programmers they think of as A-listers. The entire worldwide output of programmers, big as it is, doesn't actually generate that many Googly programmers. So Google has to bid up the price of this specific skill set. So, hot pay today, dustbin in 5 years. Well paid? Or maybe just pay-for-risk. You make the call.
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Basically yes! No law, but it seems it's become a cultural thing. It might stem from back before the eighties IT was a "woman's"-field. The hardware side of IT was delegated to a sub-field of electrician, and then when software development was introduced in our universities and collages it was an engineering field. So all who now are the managers of IT-departments in big companies are engineers from this period, and so it's become a "club". Let's not disregard a strong union, which lobbies hard to prevent engineering-subjects to become available to "mundanes". And so big companies like National Oilwell Varco, (the Norwegian branch of the US company), only hire engineers for programming work. So you have a big need, and a minuscule supply of engineers so an average software engineer can expect about 120-150 thousand dollars straight out of school, with a guaranteed job. I am a believer in introducing programming at elementary school, making it a universal skill, as the future is in the hands of programmers. As I see it, in 50 years, not knowing how to code, will be like not knowing English in today's world. I think the need for programmers won't drop. Unless we manage to make self-improving code, as new technologies lead to new types of software needed. We haven't cracked the key to "thinking machines". So when we do it will be trillions of lines of code will it take? A flying robot like the JSF has only 5.6 million lines of code. So unless we go in to saturate the job-market with programmers, it will remain a popular field. tried to have some brevity, but I failed :~ -frank
