The VB Stigma
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
I always found it funny as hell that the people who laughed at (the old) VB because it wasn't "type safe" are the same people who say absolutely nothing about the total lack of type safety in Java.
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Dave Kreskowiak -
Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
I agree with you. (But, then again, I use VB.NET) :rolleyes:
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
One of the biggest problems with VB.net is that it attracts all the VB6 idiots, so a large amount of the VB code out there is written by idiots. After all, if you're not trying to pick a language that your monkeys could do, you'll pick C# over VB.net because the language is more concise and more full featured (e.g. writing lambdas or delegates in VB is painful).
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I always found it funny as hell that the people who laughed at (the old) VB because it wasn't "type safe" are the same people who say absolutely nothing about the total lack of type safety in Java.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak -
Yeah, I did. I had an image of JS embedded in a web page in my head, but typed the wrong thing. My fingers can't keep up with what I'm thinking...
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak -
One of the biggest problems with VB.net is that it attracts all the VB6 idiots, so a large amount of the VB code out there is written by idiots. After all, if you're not trying to pick a language that your monkeys could do, you'll pick C# over VB.net because the language is more concise and more full featured (e.g. writing lambdas or delegates in VB is painful).
Proposal - a series of "tests" (described below) to see who writes better code in both VB and C#. Beyond being given the requirements of the test application, no other information is to be provided regarding programming style, content, or anything else. It should be up to the participating programmers to write code as they see fit to satisfy the design requirements. Requirements should include mock-ups of screen shots. It might be a good idea to establish tangible quality indicators that each judge must use as a minimum in their decision making process. Test #1: 0) Ask two programmers to write a moderately simple application in VB.Net. One should be an experienced C# programmer with experience in VB.Net, and the other an experienced VB.Net programmer with no exposure to C#. 1) Evaluate the two projects side-by-side without knowing which programmer wrote which version. 2) Identify each of the projects' respective author. Test #2: 0) Ask two programmers to write a moderately simple application in C#. One should be an experienced VB.Net programmer with experience in C#, and the other an experienced C# programmer with no exposure to vb.net. 1) Evaluate the two projects side-by-side without knowing which programmer wrote which version. 2) Identify each of the projects' respective author. The idea would be to more scientifically determine who writes the better code. Since "better code" is a subjective term, create a panel of three judges to serve as the evaluation team. They cannot discuss the projects amongst themselves,, and each places secret ballots, with a simple majority indicating the group decision. To further eliminate chances of a lopsided decision, run both tests three to seven times.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
I don't necessarily have something against VB. I love the language, but there's a few flaws... First of all, backwards compatibility with VB1 to VB6. You could argue this is really only Option Strict, which is off by default. You can turn it on and you're forced to write better code. Be that as it may, many VB programmers don't know about Option Strict. It allows for code such as the following:
Dim i As Integer = TextBox1.Text + TextBox2.Text
It takes a more experienced programmer to see we've got a problem here. However, I was told this kind of 'auto-casting' and 'type inference' was the default in VB6 and many programmers loved it. Casting and Parsing is a pain to them. Unfortunately many VB.NET programmers still come from the pre-.NET VB era and still think having to think about your types is to much trouble. Furthermore, a VB.NET Form ignores all rules of encapsulation. I've seen VB.NET code that instantiates a Form as follows:
Form1.Text = "Isn't Text Public, not Shared!?"
Form1.ShowWhat the...? I've spent quite some time looking for a variable called 'Form1', but it simply didn't exist! Text and Show can be called as if they were Shared. Backwards compatibility with VB1... Of course C# came after VB1 and I guess Microsoft learned from their mistakes with VB to make C# a 'better' language. In short, VB can do everything C# can and more (but also less, for example VB has no 'unsafe' code blocks). It's more the pre-VB.NET mentality that makes a lot of VB programmers frowned upon and I must sadly confess it's not completely unjustified. However, I've seen C# programmers who made a mess out of things too. You can write bad code in any language and VB is no exception. When you're dealing with a skilled VB programmer who knows what he's doing all the above does not apply and I'd have to say VB is just as good as C#. I prefer VB syntax, but that's personal :)
It's an OO world.
public class Naerling : Lazy<Person>{
public void DoWork(){ throw new NotImplementedException(); }
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
Keep in mind that I am an ex-VB programmer. The stigma is illogical, however, one thing that gets me is that it allows you to get things done without ever challenging your knowledge (I was guilty of this, I only learnt OOP when I moved to C#). The problem with VB isn't the top-end it's the bottom-end. It's not that VB programmers are worse than any other programmer, it's that that some are (wait for it) because the language facilitates it (prior to VB.Net, basically required it). Take two **bad** programmers, one C# and one VB - get them to write a decently-sized program: the VB guys will polish it off long before the C# guy. Now ask them to change it quite drastically and watch the VB guy sweat. (On the other side of the coin, there is no difference between a good VB developer's program and a good C# developer's program). You can be truly efficient in any language but you can only be absolutely horrible in a couple. For people that worry about the quality of the code sticking to devs who use C# is the safer bet: there is just less risk - the bottom-end is more competent (although still pretty horrible, to be honest).
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Chinese Proverb] Jonathan C Dickinson (C# Software Engineer)
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
Personally, without checking the other comments first to bias my opinion on, VB.NET isn't THAT bad, but I still don't like it. VB.NET was my first programming experience. It was the first language I learned about 6-7 years ago, and I did my fair share of initial learning how and why things were as they were in it. Eventually, both from peer pressure and pure interest I started to experiment with C#, and fairly quickly I started really liking it. It just felt more logical to use curly brackets to mark down your code instead of new lines and verbose words, but I also remember back then (could've been me, it was my first programming experience after all) that when I ran into problems with VB.NET and tried rewriting the project in C#, it worked better in C#, without the flaky behavior. Now before all of you are going to yell "But MS IL! That's impossible as it gets compiled to the same bytecode anyway!" there's still 2 different compilers here, one for C# and one for VB.NET, and perhaps the syntax gets translated differently? Anyway I'm talking about 6-7 years ago here, back then .NET 2.0 was the new kid on the block and perhaps MS has fixed things since then. But personally, even though VB.NET was my first language, I really prefer C# between the .NET languages. And I also tell everyone who's doing VB.NET to at least try to get acquainted with C#. Why? Well, C#'s syntax is much less arcane than VB's, and can prepare you for maybe trying C or C++ some day. After all, framework languages are cool and all, but in some businesses, those low level languages really are where the party's at. So if you really want to do .NET, why not do the most widely used, least arcane one?
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
Maybe its worth asking him if he has a file with all of the global functions "everything needs to use" lol, I started with VB6 and occasionally play around in .NET, there not poor languages, they have event-driven and best of OOP and alot of people wanting to quickly prototype things often write them in VB(.NET or 6). While I do syntactically prefer C-style programming (not low level just curly braces, strong typing, familiar type names), but recently I have begun playing in VB.NET again as I have been writing some BASIC code for my rPi and wanting to quickly get to grips with windows8
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1st, let me just say, my first language was QBasic then VB4 ( I don't count my youthful meager C++ approaches). Professionally, I have done VB6 and VB.NET. Now for why I do not advocate VB: The majority of people drawn to VB are drawn to eat because they associate Basic with "easy" and no need to do it right. Quick and dirty is good enough, maintenance is unimportant. "Heck, I am a manager and I can program" is a scary phrase. I will never negatively criticize a well written VB application; however, they exist in some nether region that has escaped my vast experience. (My own work included, I have to use so many hacks in VB6 that it makes me cry). Second, VB.NET is a decision that is often made because the team is moving from or has experience with VB6 and not from a rational perspective. Or it is made because, "Talent is Cheaper" Third, C# is lucky, sharing a similar syntax with C, C++, and Java and having very similar APIS you can easily switch languages natural. Fourth, no one should have to wonder why this doesn't work:
if not foo is nothing and foo.Id < 10 then
end ifFifth, I could go on but, well, no matter how rational a point is a VB nut will downvote me.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
Fourth, no one should have to wonder why this doesn't work:
if not foo is nothing and foo.Id < 10 then
end ifWell it work's just fine if you write it the corrcet way.
if not foo is nothing andalso foo.Id < 10 then
end ifIn my humble opinion I find that most people criticise other languauges without having a full understanding of them. For me I use both C# and VB.net and I don't really favour one over the other. All depends on what project I am working on at the time.
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
I think the problem with VB has always been its accessibility. It's so easy to use compared to, say, C++ or even C# that the price of admission is really low. This has meant a lot of non-programmers have used it to write poor, unstructured code - mainly due to a method of designing whilst coding. I've come across this kind of thing many, many times in the VBA arena particularly. On the other hand, its ease of use for a disciplined programmer means you can get 'stuff' done in it quickly. You can prototype an outline of an application easily. The tool itself is fine, it's just another way of describing your solution to a problem to the machine. Its ease of use is one of its greatest assets but is also a large contributor to it getting a reputation for buggy, spaghetti code. Personally, because my first 'real' language (after Sinclair Basic) was C I find C# easier and more expressive (of the .Net languages). But c#, vb both end up as the same MSIL code going into the .net virtual machine. The differences between VB and what the critics call "proper" languages are teeny tiny.
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I grew up on Atari Basic, then IBM Basic, then QBasic, then Visual Basic 3, 4, 5, and 6... VB6 served a purpose, but it was also very easy to write horrible, eye-burning code with (I had to maintain someone else's)... Then VB.NET came along... Good framework under it, and wordy syntax that's easier for newbie programmers to grasp. It's a real langauge now, and I've written a couple major projects in it, but it just reminds me too much of those old VB6 projects. C# feels cleaner and more efficient, and is easy to read if written correctly. Anyway... Back to porting another piece of this old kludge of a VB6 system to C#... Don't ask. :mad:
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
VB6 ... was ... very easy to write horrible, eye-burning code with code with
Are you seriously saying that you have never seen 'horrible, eye-burning code' in C, C++, C#, Java, JavaScript, Python, PERL, F#, APL, Assembler(s), LotusScript, FORTRAN, LISP, Algol60, etc, etc? A good programmer can write good code in any language; a bad programmer can write bad code in any language. The language is only the way that you write a representation of the algorithm that you thought up in your head.
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
Just about to celebrate 16 years with my present company - hired from another company to fix a problem and whipped up the application (ship tracking) in VB5 in a month or so. 16 years later and a few million in revenue from the product and supported 15 staff for that period I am now re-writing it in VB.Net for the next 16 years. People can have whatever attitude they like - I have electronics background but learnt VB from a book and it has kept my family and I fed and clothed, along with all my staff.
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
Two points: First, VB is a verbose language, no doubt about it, but that actually works in its favor for people who don't program all the time. Making fun of VB is like an army guy making fun of my 30-06 bolt action rifle. Well, dude, I'm not shooting people. I don't need the same tool. In fact, I appreciate the simplicity of it because I don't use it everyday. Second, language without framework is meaningless. We'd all program in Scheme/Lisp if there was a framework out there worth a dang. The stigma is typically against .NET rather than some funky open source flavor of the month. And from what I've seen, the tools which are provided free for the frameworks like Spring, Struts, are uneven and spread out all over the place. Again, if that's what you do, and you work with a team, you can track those things down and create a tricked out mousetrap. At the end of the day, the success of VB.NET is really me, because I've been able to set up intranet applications, desktop utilities, and design calculators which are actually useful despite being an engineer by trade. Sure, I had C, QBasic, Java, and Unix shell programming in college, but in order to do anything useful, you have to spend the time learning what you need and building up your tool chest. With .NET, your tool chest is pretty much dumped in your lap, and supported by a consistent and well funded development community. Without that, I probably wouldn't be as effective, because I'd be bogged down trying to figure out Eclipse, Ant, Maven, and Tomcat. And then once I had a handle on that, I'd have to decide my implementation for a web app: J2EE, Spring, MyFaces? Should I swap in an ORM like Hibernate? Well that means JBoss... wait, what's JBoss? You get the picture.
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
Part of the problem is it's name: basic. BASIC goes back ... well, a long time and was pretty basic. I don't want to go into detail on it, but the BASIC from the 70s and 80s was terrible. Another part of the problem is there have been many basic programmers - who should not have been programmers - who wrote a ton of awful code [I was there, I had to deal with it] because they could; it was basic. They lent a bad name to the language. It's history, Dude - give it time. Maybe by 2030 the c# guys will forget ;)
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
SixOfTheClock wrote:
So what do you guys think? Am I missing something here? Is there actually a reason beyond ego that in 2012 people still have this attitude towards VB.NET?
The attitude is very high-school. Generally speaking, I've found that when people spend all their time criticizing someone else's choice of a programming language, tool, etc. they're doing their darndest to try and make themselves feel better about themselves for some reason. I've been developing code for about 36 years now, about 13 of that in some version of VB starting with VB3 through VB.Net. My largest code project still lives in VB.Net. It computes employee time cards and millions of people get paid as a result of it. It's not novice code. It's the heart of a very lucrative system that generates $Millions in revenue yearly. I originally chose VB3 because it allowed me to transition from DOS development (which I was doing in C++) without having to re-invent the wheel. I had, at that time, spent many years developing my own UI, low-level O/S code, etc. I was ready to let the vendor (Microsoft) abstract the low-level stuff for a change and focus on the application layer instead of constantly plumbing in the basement. VB was PERFECT for that. The first major system I wrote in VB3 was a credit-card settlement system for a large restaurant chain. It worked beautifully and because of VB3 I was able to prototype and build the GUI and really focus on the application instead of handling INVALID_RECTANGLE events and crap like that. Recently (in the last couple of years) I decided to move to C# simply because I find it a little easier to "see" object concepts with it (and I wrote C/C++ for many years). I didn't make that transition because C# was any "better", nor do I strive to go back and convert my Rules Engine into it: I keep maintaining it in VB.Net and write my new stuff in C#. They're both first-class languages, fully supported and work fine. To the people that take the attitude that [fill-in-your-choice-of-language-here] is a TOY: shove it where the sun don't shine. Keep your stinking criticism to yourself and demonstrate some professionalism for a change. -CB :)
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Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
Fourth, no one should have to wonder why this doesn't work:
if not foo is nothing and foo.Id < 10 then
end ifWell it work's just fine if you write it the corrcet way.
if not foo is nothing andalso foo.Id < 10 then
end ifIn my humble opinion I find that most people criticise other languauges without having a full understanding of them. For me I use both C# and VB.net and I don't really favour one over the other. All depends on what project I am working on at the time.
I remember the day Microsoft decided, that in order for the migration to be easier between VB6 and VB.NET they changed the AND to not be short-circuit. That was they day, I truly gave up on VB. My point was more that I did write it the correct way, AndAlso is stupid. I am not an ancient yet but I will eventually get there, and in all my time I may have written less than a dozen non-short-circuit statements. The overwhelming majority are short-circuiting. Microsoft decided that backwards compatibility(whatever that means) with VB6 was more important than making a more used feature harder to use than a less used feature. Really, that is all you need to know right there. That and bacon, I win the discussion because I invoked bacon.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
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SixOfTheClock wrote:
"What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break."
People like this are morons in any language. It's like you say: VB is just another tool. It is neither good nor bad though you can produce code of either flavor. Personally I prefer c# but I don't think its any better; it's just my tool of choice right now. You're not missing anything: there will always be people for whom the tool set they work with is supreme and everything else is rubbish,. Ignore them, they'll soon be back at MaccieDs flipping burgers. :)
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
mark merrens wrote:
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair.
Funny ... that's my signature on most of my forum accounts too. Small world. -CB ;)
