The VB Stigma
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
Maybe its worth asking him if he has a file with all of the global functions "everything needs to use" lol, I started with VB6 and occasionally play around in .NET, there not poor languages, they have event-driven and best of OOP and alot of people wanting to quickly prototype things often write them in VB(.NET or 6). While I do syntactically prefer C-style programming (not low level just curly braces, strong typing, familiar type names), but recently I have begun playing in VB.NET again as I have been writing some BASIC code for my rPi and wanting to quickly get to grips with windows8
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1st, let me just say, my first language was QBasic then VB4 ( I don't count my youthful meager C++ approaches). Professionally, I have done VB6 and VB.NET. Now for why I do not advocate VB: The majority of people drawn to VB are drawn to eat because they associate Basic with "easy" and no need to do it right. Quick and dirty is good enough, maintenance is unimportant. "Heck, I am a manager and I can program" is a scary phrase. I will never negatively criticize a well written VB application; however, they exist in some nether region that has escaped my vast experience. (My own work included, I have to use so many hacks in VB6 that it makes me cry). Second, VB.NET is a decision that is often made because the team is moving from or has experience with VB6 and not from a rational perspective. Or it is made because, "Talent is Cheaper" Third, C# is lucky, sharing a similar syntax with C, C++, and Java and having very similar APIS you can easily switch languages natural. Fourth, no one should have to wonder why this doesn't work:
if not foo is nothing and foo.Id < 10 then
end ifFifth, I could go on but, well, no matter how rational a point is a VB nut will downvote me.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
Fourth, no one should have to wonder why this doesn't work:
if not foo is nothing and foo.Id < 10 then
end ifWell it work's just fine if you write it the corrcet way.
if not foo is nothing andalso foo.Id < 10 then
end ifIn my humble opinion I find that most people criticise other languauges without having a full understanding of them. For me I use both C# and VB.net and I don't really favour one over the other. All depends on what project I am working on at the time.
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
I think the problem with VB has always been its accessibility. It's so easy to use compared to, say, C++ or even C# that the price of admission is really low. This has meant a lot of non-programmers have used it to write poor, unstructured code - mainly due to a method of designing whilst coding. I've come across this kind of thing many, many times in the VBA arena particularly. On the other hand, its ease of use for a disciplined programmer means you can get 'stuff' done in it quickly. You can prototype an outline of an application easily. The tool itself is fine, it's just another way of describing your solution to a problem to the machine. Its ease of use is one of its greatest assets but is also a large contributor to it getting a reputation for buggy, spaghetti code. Personally, because my first 'real' language (after Sinclair Basic) was C I find C# easier and more expressive (of the .Net languages). But c#, vb both end up as the same MSIL code going into the .net virtual machine. The differences between VB and what the critics call "proper" languages are teeny tiny.
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I grew up on Atari Basic, then IBM Basic, then QBasic, then Visual Basic 3, 4, 5, and 6... VB6 served a purpose, but it was also very easy to write horrible, eye-burning code with (I had to maintain someone else's)... Then VB.NET came along... Good framework under it, and wordy syntax that's easier for newbie programmers to grasp. It's a real langauge now, and I've written a couple major projects in it, but it just reminds me too much of those old VB6 projects. C# feels cleaner and more efficient, and is easy to read if written correctly. Anyway... Back to porting another piece of this old kludge of a VB6 system to C#... Don't ask. :mad:
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
VB6 ... was ... very easy to write horrible, eye-burning code with code with
Are you seriously saying that you have never seen 'horrible, eye-burning code' in C, C++, C#, Java, JavaScript, Python, PERL, F#, APL, Assembler(s), LotusScript, FORTRAN, LISP, Algol60, etc, etc? A good programmer can write good code in any language; a bad programmer can write bad code in any language. The language is only the way that you write a representation of the algorithm that you thought up in your head.
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
Just about to celebrate 16 years with my present company - hired from another company to fix a problem and whipped up the application (ship tracking) in VB5 in a month or so. 16 years later and a few million in revenue from the product and supported 15 staff for that period I am now re-writing it in VB.Net for the next 16 years. People can have whatever attitude they like - I have electronics background but learnt VB from a book and it has kept my family and I fed and clothed, along with all my staff.
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
Two points: First, VB is a verbose language, no doubt about it, but that actually works in its favor for people who don't program all the time. Making fun of VB is like an army guy making fun of my 30-06 bolt action rifle. Well, dude, I'm not shooting people. I don't need the same tool. In fact, I appreciate the simplicity of it because I don't use it everyday. Second, language without framework is meaningless. We'd all program in Scheme/Lisp if there was a framework out there worth a dang. The stigma is typically against .NET rather than some funky open source flavor of the month. And from what I've seen, the tools which are provided free for the frameworks like Spring, Struts, are uneven and spread out all over the place. Again, if that's what you do, and you work with a team, you can track those things down and create a tricked out mousetrap. At the end of the day, the success of VB.NET is really me, because I've been able to set up intranet applications, desktop utilities, and design calculators which are actually useful despite being an engineer by trade. Sure, I had C, QBasic, Java, and Unix shell programming in college, but in order to do anything useful, you have to spend the time learning what you need and building up your tool chest. With .NET, your tool chest is pretty much dumped in your lap, and supported by a consistent and well funded development community. Without that, I probably wouldn't be as effective, because I'd be bogged down trying to figure out Eclipse, Ant, Maven, and Tomcat. And then once I had a handle on that, I'd have to decide my implementation for a web app: J2EE, Spring, MyFaces? Should I swap in an ORM like Hibernate? Well that means JBoss... wait, what's JBoss? You get the picture.
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
Part of the problem is it's name: basic. BASIC goes back ... well, a long time and was pretty basic. I don't want to go into detail on it, but the BASIC from the 70s and 80s was terrible. Another part of the problem is there have been many basic programmers - who should not have been programmers - who wrote a ton of awful code [I was there, I had to deal with it] because they could; it was basic. They lent a bad name to the language. It's history, Dude - give it time. Maybe by 2030 the c# guys will forget ;)
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
SixOfTheClock wrote:
So what do you guys think? Am I missing something here? Is there actually a reason beyond ego that in 2012 people still have this attitude towards VB.NET?
The attitude is very high-school. Generally speaking, I've found that when people spend all their time criticizing someone else's choice of a programming language, tool, etc. they're doing their darndest to try and make themselves feel better about themselves for some reason. I've been developing code for about 36 years now, about 13 of that in some version of VB starting with VB3 through VB.Net. My largest code project still lives in VB.Net. It computes employee time cards and millions of people get paid as a result of it. It's not novice code. It's the heart of a very lucrative system that generates $Millions in revenue yearly. I originally chose VB3 because it allowed me to transition from DOS development (which I was doing in C++) without having to re-invent the wheel. I had, at that time, spent many years developing my own UI, low-level O/S code, etc. I was ready to let the vendor (Microsoft) abstract the low-level stuff for a change and focus on the application layer instead of constantly plumbing in the basement. VB was PERFECT for that. The first major system I wrote in VB3 was a credit-card settlement system for a large restaurant chain. It worked beautifully and because of VB3 I was able to prototype and build the GUI and really focus on the application instead of handling INVALID_RECTANGLE events and crap like that. Recently (in the last couple of years) I decided to move to C# simply because I find it a little easier to "see" object concepts with it (and I wrote C/C++ for many years). I didn't make that transition because C# was any "better", nor do I strive to go back and convert my Rules Engine into it: I keep maintaining it in VB.Net and write my new stuff in C#. They're both first-class languages, fully supported and work fine. To the people that take the attitude that [fill-in-your-choice-of-language-here] is a TOY: shove it where the sun don't shine. Keep your stinking criticism to yourself and demonstrate some professionalism for a change. -CB :)
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Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
Fourth, no one should have to wonder why this doesn't work:
if not foo is nothing and foo.Id < 10 then
end ifWell it work's just fine if you write it the corrcet way.
if not foo is nothing andalso foo.Id < 10 then
end ifIn my humble opinion I find that most people criticise other languauges without having a full understanding of them. For me I use both C# and VB.net and I don't really favour one over the other. All depends on what project I am working on at the time.
I remember the day Microsoft decided, that in order for the migration to be easier between VB6 and VB.NET they changed the AND to not be short-circuit. That was they day, I truly gave up on VB. My point was more that I did write it the correct way, AndAlso is stupid. I am not an ancient yet but I will eventually get there, and in all my time I may have written less than a dozen non-short-circuit statements. The overwhelming majority are short-circuiting. Microsoft decided that backwards compatibility(whatever that means) with VB6 was more important than making a more used feature harder to use than a less used feature. Really, that is all you need to know right there. That and bacon, I win the discussion because I invoked bacon.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
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SixOfTheClock wrote:
"What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break."
People like this are morons in any language. It's like you say: VB is just another tool. It is neither good nor bad though you can produce code of either flavor. Personally I prefer c# but I don't think its any better; it's just my tool of choice right now. You're not missing anything: there will always be people for whom the tool set they work with is supreme and everything else is rubbish,. Ignore them, they'll soon be back at MaccieDs flipping burgers. :)
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
mark merrens wrote:
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair.
Funny ... that's my signature on most of my forum accounts too. Small world. -CB ;)
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
I'm not keen on VB.NET (even though I'm using it on my current job) for three reasons: 1. I grew up on curly braces, and have an irrational preference for them. 2. VB.NET, unlike C#, is wholly proprietary. There isn't even an ECMA standard for it, let alone ANSI or ISO. 3. I spent nine years maintaining various VB6 codebases, and I have the scars on my forearm to prove it. (Remember, kids: down, not across.) However, the C++ hotshot who thinks every class member should be made public so that "nothing will break" needs to stop smoking my catnip.
When posting here, I do not represent anybody but myself.
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I grew up on Atari Basic, then IBM Basic, then QBasic, then Visual Basic 3, 4, 5, and 6... VB6 served a purpose, but it was also very easy to write horrible, eye-burning code with (I had to maintain someone else's)... Then VB.NET came along... Good framework under it, and wordy syntax that's easier for newbie programmers to grasp. It's a real langauge now, and I've written a couple major projects in it, but it just reminds me too much of those old VB6 projects. C# feels cleaner and more efficient, and is easy to read if written correctly. Anyway... Back to porting another piece of this old kludge of a VB6 system to C#... Don't ask. :mad:
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
C# feels cleaner and more efficient, and is easy to read if written correctly.
You know ... I prefer C# now myself, but your statement could apply to either language. Hell, well written COBOL is easy to read and I won't touch that language. God, this is getting to be an old discussion isn't it? What next, Linux vs. Windows? -CB
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
Probably the reason is it's too english (readable) as compared to C# or C++ where the syntax looks nerdy. When non programmers look at a VB language they can understand some parts of it as compared to C# or C++ and also the reason why some programmers sees it as "kid's" language. I personally use VB and I think it is just as capable as C# or most languages out there.
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I remember the day Microsoft decided, that in order for the migration to be easier between VB6 and VB.NET they changed the AND to not be short-circuit. That was they day, I truly gave up on VB. My point was more that I did write it the correct way, AndAlso is stupid. I am not an ancient yet but I will eventually get there, and in all my time I may have written less than a dozen non-short-circuit statements. The overwhelming majority are short-circuiting. Microsoft decided that backwards compatibility(whatever that means) with VB6 was more important than making a more used feature harder to use than a less used feature. Really, that is all you need to know right there. That and bacon, I win the discussion because I invoked bacon.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
Could not agree more (and not just because of bacon). I understand it's a nit (maybe a peeve?), but any language that the developer has to tell the compiler, "I want you to evaluate this expression as efficiently as possible" instead of that being baked-in is just annoying. Also, in the 21st century, we still need a continuation marker on wrapped lines? But, to answer the OP, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with VB.NET--good, solid development can, and probably does, occur in that framework. As pointed out above, though, the stigma of a trail back to VB6 (which certainly deserves the stink it has) has (perhaps unfairly) tainted VB.NET.
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
I am a combination of points 2 and 3. I had Visual Basic 4/5 as my first real programming language at the age of 14. Before I would only do DOS batch programs to automate some things I got bored of typing. When I first got in contact with it I was amazed, I was creating programs! Like any new beginner I did a lot of nasty practices, but that's OK, I was learning and reading my first programming book (Learn Visual Basic in 21 days, yeah right). The thing is that I matured and explored other languages. Working with C/C++ was very special to me because it was challenging and opened up a new world to me. It also made me look at VB with some sort of disdain. I mean, when I looked back it seemed like a kid language (I was a kid when I started to learn it). This actually illogically made me simply not like it. It's like when you don't like the taste of a food, you just don't like it. Later I started to really despise it because it was creating problems for me. I remember once liking not needing to declare variables and later having nightmares because that was allowed. Again a whole culture against anything with VB was growing inside me and that finally extended to VB.Net. Now, VB.Net is not VB6 I know, but I really inherited a lot of the culture from old VB. There are still ugly things the compiler will allow/assume that can make the life of a second developer very hard, specially on spotting certain bugs due to bad coding. Of course it's nothing compared to old VB, but VB.Net still inherits some of the things I hated of old VB. I'm not saying that C# can't have bad coding practices that create hard to spot bugs, I'm just saying that it has less, the compiler assumes and forgives less. Then there are other reasons to not like the language. These reasons are not really the language's fault, but of people who use it, for the following reasons: 1 - I still see too much of bad practices of old VB into VB.Net. For example, declaring huge amounts of global variables that are modified everywhere, that's just hell. 2 - It is still more likely to inherit bad VB.Net code than C# code (in my personal experience). I think that's true because VB.Net is more appealing for beginners and therefore will have bad code more often. 3 - Because C# is much more popular language there are a lot more resources on the web when you're looking for web. A quick search on codeproject articles and other sources will prove that. So if you're looking not to reinvent the wheel, chances are that you'll find it first in C
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Proposal - a series of "tests" (described below) to see who writes better code in both VB and C#. Beyond being given the requirements of the test application, no other information is to be provided regarding programming style, content, or anything else. It should be up to the participating programmers to write code as they see fit to satisfy the design requirements. Requirements should include mock-ups of screen shots. It might be a good idea to establish tangible quality indicators that each judge must use as a minimum in their decision making process. Test #1: 0) Ask two programmers to write a moderately simple application in VB.Net. One should be an experienced C# programmer with experience in VB.Net, and the other an experienced VB.Net programmer with no exposure to C#. 1) Evaluate the two projects side-by-side without knowing which programmer wrote which version. 2) Identify each of the projects' respective author. Test #2: 0) Ask two programmers to write a moderately simple application in C#. One should be an experienced VB.Net programmer with experience in C#, and the other an experienced C# programmer with no exposure to vb.net. 1) Evaluate the two projects side-by-side without knowing which programmer wrote which version. 2) Identify each of the projects' respective author. The idea would be to more scientifically determine who writes the better code. Since "better code" is a subjective term, create a panel of three judges to serve as the evaluation team. They cannot discuss the projects amongst themselves,, and each places secret ballots, with a simple majority indicating the group decision. To further eliminate chances of a lopsided decision, run both tests three to seven times.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997Looks like a very reasonable research project. It would be great to have my theory proved.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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1st, let me just say, my first language was QBasic then VB4 ( I don't count my youthful meager C++ approaches). Professionally, I have done VB6 and VB.NET. Now for why I do not advocate VB: The majority of people drawn to VB are drawn to eat because they associate Basic with "easy" and no need to do it right. Quick and dirty is good enough, maintenance is unimportant. "Heck, I am a manager and I can program" is a scary phrase. I will never negatively criticize a well written VB application; however, they exist in some nether region that has escaped my vast experience. (My own work included, I have to use so many hacks in VB6 that it makes me cry). Second, VB.NET is a decision that is often made because the team is moving from or has experience with VB6 and not from a rational perspective. Or it is made because, "Talent is Cheaper" Third, C# is lucky, sharing a similar syntax with C, C++, and Java and having very similar APIS you can easily switch languages natural. Fourth, no one should have to wonder why this doesn't work:
if not foo is nothing and foo.Id < 10 then
end ifFifth, I could go on but, well, no matter how rational a point is a VB nut will downvote me.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
That was exactly what was missing on my handful of arguments for my VB.Net hatred.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
In my current job we have legacy systems in VB.NET and I'm creating new systems in C#, so I'm going back and forth between the two all of the time. And yes, I'm using C# for new systems because I prefer it to VB.NET. I prefer C# because there are many things about VB that annoy me (like the use of newlines as statement terminators, verbose syntax, etc.). But really, I rarely notice the difference most of the time, because I'm focused on the logic not the language. You can do the same things in VB.NET that you can do in C#, it's all .NET in the end. I think that the anti-VB attitude among "real" programmers comes from BASIC's history as a simple, non-serious language for teaching novices. Those days are long gone though and VB.NET is a serious language suited to doing serious work, but the perception of VB as a kiddie non-pro language persists. Also, most experienced programmers are much more familiar with C-style syntax than BASIC-style syntax, so they are biased towards seeing anything with C-style syntax as more of a "real" or "professional" language. I prefer C#, but I see nothing wrong with VB.NET. Being a good .NET programmer has little to do with which language you use, the framework is the same. There is so little difference that I rarely even notice which language I'm using until I start declaring a variable the wrong way or add/leave out a semicolon in the wrong language. The only real differences come down to syntax, which is the most trivial part of programming. As far as I'm concerned the worst thing that you can say about VB.NET is that the syntax is annoying to work with, but it's a hell of a lot less so than with some other more highly-regarded languages out there (I'm looking at you, Perl).