Oregon Shooting
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The topic is "America has stupid gun laws". This comes up now and again. The exact same arguments are made by the exact same people each time. I don't think anyone has changed their minds yet, but it is American politics and shouldn't be here, and according to the Americans anyone who isn't shouldn't be allowed an opinion anyway.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
Well, I thought the Topic was "Oregon Shooting", and the Body contained the expected default non-American reaction. I'm ok with keepign the latter out of the lounge, even the former, but I firmly insist that such a Shooting is not only a "political issue".
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Nope. I did shoot a guy in the Philippines while on watch in the Navy once, but he was trying to steal the brass fittings on our fire hoses, and he wouldn't stop when I have him the required three warnings. 30 yards, in the dark, with a 1911M1, and it was pouring rain. Shot him through the left femur.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
Well, I thought the Topic was "Oregon Shooting", and the Body contained the expected default non-American reaction. I'm ok with keepign the latter out of the lounge, even the former, but I firmly insist that such a Shooting is not only a "political issue".
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Link[^] Yeah..2nd amendment makes perfectly sense if you're able to own semiautomatics... Or maybe he just was pissed at all the Christmas shoppers
Hmm i wonder why its doing that......ARGHS NO STOP, ROLLBACK ROLLBACK...F*** That's how i learned to "Always Backup"!! Dogs are man's best Friend, Cats are man's adorable little serial killer
Mendor81 wrote:
if you're able to own semiautomatics...
I read his gun jammed. Being a semiauto might have saved lives. Anyways, so you think laws stop people from breaking laws? :doh: You aren't able to own any firearm if you are a felon, or carry weapons in Chicago, that didn't stop this guy: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-david-victory-21-charged-with-shooting-two-women-on-west-side-20121211,0,245521.story[^] Shot 2 people, didn't make international news. Or this guy: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-demarquez-nelson-charged-with-shooting-near-police-department-headquarters-20121212,0,4903183.story[^] This happened on the campus of IIT, a tech school I've hired people from. No international news story. Don't forget these unsolved crimes, (I'll assume they were carried out by law abiding 2nd Amendment supporters though) http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-chicago-gun-violence-crime-december-11-20121212,0,6436.story[^]
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One such difference is that murder can't realistically be solved.
Reason 1: guns aren't the only potentially deadly weapon. Heck, you don't even need a weapon, just throw them off a building.That is true, but i give you a situation: in which case it's more likely to get killed/shoot someone (depending on which side you are) A man in the US with guns comes home finds his wife cheating with another man, he goes for the gun and shoots. because he's angry and temporary blinded by jealousy and hate. Can happen to everybody. In europe he has no gun at home, so how to channel this temporary hate and rage? He would probably beat the shit out of the guy, definitly swear and yell the hell out of but not necessarly end in death. my point is that given the legal right to own a weapon increases the possibility of crime happening in your own environment. The easier the access to something the more likely it is to happen.
Hmm i wonder why its doing that......ARGHS NO STOP, ROLLBACK ROLLBACK...F*** That's how i learned to "Always Backup"!! Dogs are man's best Friend, Cats are man's adorable little serial killer
Mendor81 wrote:
A man in the US with guns comes home finds his wife cheating with another man, he goes for the gun and shoots. because he's angry and temporary blinded by jealousy and hate. Can happen to everybody.
In europe he has no gun at home, so how to channel this temporary hate and rage? He would probably beat the sh*t out of the guy, definitly swear and yell the hell out of but not necessarly end in death.A woman comes home and finds her teenage daughter being raped by a very strong man. I guess in Europe she could call the police and hope they arrive before he kills the both of them or, if she happens to be Texan, she could bury the guy in the side yard next to the out house. Gosh, this fabrication of scenarios to prove a point is easy stuff. Wanna go another round?
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What do you have alarms and police for? We have robberies over here as well and in plain daylight. happened to a neighbor of mine. nobody got killed in the process. Neither he or i feel the need to go out and buy a gun. We did install alarms that same week though.
Hmm i wonder why its doing that......ARGHS NO STOP, ROLLBACK ROLLBACK...F*** That's how i learned to "Always Backup"!! Dogs are man's best Friend, Cats are man's adorable little serial killer
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Here is a good relation of numbers and percentages[^] Spain has 4.500.000 firearms that means roughly a 10% of our population is armed. US has 270.000.000 firearms thats an 88.8 percent of the population according to the source. It's not the worst country judging by death's by firearms but number 28 is pretty high considering that the us is a internally political stable country oposed to honduras for example.
Hmm i wonder why its doing that......ARGHS NO STOP, ROLLBACK ROLLBACK...F*** That's how i learned to "Always Backup"!! Dogs are man's best Friend, Cats are man's adorable little serial killer
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If the ground is churning where you're at it's because you just caused millions of innocent, unarmed victims of Europe's multiple 'purges' to all roll over in their mass graves. Because only the most ignorant amoung us would apply the phrase "resolving our differences in a more peaceful way" to earthlings I'll assume you are talking about the Europeans from a different planet because the Europeans on earth have a very long history of bringing death and destruction to millions of it's own citizenry - particularly when that citizenry has absolutely no way of fighting back. You have everything from the medieval style inquisitions up to the the systemic exterminations of the holocaust on through the recent genocide in Serbia. So after 1,000 years of slaughter and persecution of unarmed citizens don't try to sell me the bullshit that you resolve your differences "in a more peaceful way". Unless of course, you were making a joke and by a "more peaceful way" you actually meant "rest in peace".
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Nice math. You are assuming the guns are evenly distributed? Please tell me you aren't an engineer.
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Elrond wrote:
The difference is that in one case (cars, poisoning) it is mostly accidental death. In the other case (fire arms), it is mostly intentional death.
But with baseball bats, it's ALWAYS intentional.
Elrond wrote:
But mostly, not having fire arms works as well, as is the case in most Europe. You might like them, but civilians don't need to have them. :)
You may think you don't need firearms, but you're not us, so don't get all holier-than-thou where American's attitudes where firearms are concerned. You simply don't have the same history we do.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997I asked a German friend how they got rid of all the weapons that people would have possessed at the end of WWII. I was told that Germany passed a law mandating the death penalty for possession of a gun. All guns in private hands were turned in. You need a license to own a gun and even then the gun must be deposited at the nearby police station, to be picked and used only during the hunting season. Seems to work for the Germans and I think they have seen more wars than North Americans. :) :rose:
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... because GBH is clearly the appropriate response to attempted theft? Good lord, you're even more gun crazy than I thought.
Right, because violating the lawful orders of a superior officer is a much better option.
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Link[^] Yeah..2nd amendment makes perfectly sense if you're able to own semiautomatics... Or maybe he just was pissed at all the Christmas shoppers
Hmm i wonder why its doing that......ARGHS NO STOP, ROLLBACK ROLLBACK...F*** That's how i learned to "Always Backup"!! Dogs are man's best Friend, Cats are man's adorable little serial killer
Mendor81 wrote:
Yeah..2nd amendment makes perfectly sense if you're able to own semiautomatics...
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Link[^] Yeah..2nd amendment makes perfectly sense if you're able to own semiautomatics... Or maybe he just was pissed at all the Christmas shoppers
Hmm i wonder why its doing that......ARGHS NO STOP, ROLLBACK ROLLBACK...F*** That's how i learned to "Always Backup"!! Dogs are man's best Friend, Cats are man's adorable little serial killer
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Mendor81 wrote:
Yeah..2nd amendment makes perfectly sense if you're able to own semiautomatics...
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How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
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Computational Types in C# and F#They were armed, with a car. Time to outlaw those. http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/12/13_cleveland_police_officers_w.html[^] Russell had driven from downtown on Interstate 90 east through Bratenahl at speeds of up to 100 mph and rammed a police car before he exited the freeway and headed into East Cleveland, Gardner said. They surrounded the Malibu, and some officers were out of their cars when Russell rammed another police car, Gardner said. In the news conference, Follmer described it more forcefully. Russell “violently rammed a police car and almost struck an officer,” he said. Police are trained to use deadly force to stop a suspect from using a vehicle as a weapon. They opened fire.
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They were armed, with a car. Time to outlaw those. http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/12/13_cleveland_police_officers_w.html[^] Russell had driven from downtown on Interstate 90 east through Bratenahl at speeds of up to 100 mph and rammed a police car before he exited the freeway and headed into East Cleveland, Gardner said. They surrounded the Malibu, and some officers were out of their cars when Russell rammed another police car, Gardner said. In the news conference, Follmer described it more forcefully. Russell “violently rammed a police car and almost struck an officer,” he said. Police are trained to use deadly force to stop a suspect from using a vehicle as a weapon. They opened fire.
Well, recognizing that I'm a very detached observer and therefore my criticisms may be unjustified, however: 1) By pursuing a car at high speeds, the police can cause more fatalities, injuries and damage. This was an issue in CA about 20 years ago and they passed laws that police were not to engage in high speed pursuits. (IIRC) 2) And they couldn't have blown out the tires or taken some other action? They couldn't have aimed just at the driver? Maybe they tried, as 80 or so of the 137 bullets did not apparently hit the driver or passenger. In any case, it smells of police not reigning in their own (understandable) rage, so it seems to me that the cops are as criminally negligent here as the driver. But like I said, I wasn't there, I certainly don't know all the facts, and I realize that I have an opinion that isn't necessarily even valid, sitting here in a warm house in NY. Marc
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Here is a good relation of numbers and percentages[^] Spain has 4.500.000 firearms that means roughly a 10% of our population is armed. US has 270.000.000 firearms thats an 88.8 percent of the population according to the source. It's not the worst country judging by death's by firearms but number 28 is pretty high considering that the us is a internally political stable country oposed to honduras for example.
Hmm i wonder why its doing that......ARGHS NO STOP, ROLLBACK ROLLBACK...F*** That's how i learned to "Always Backup"!! Dogs are man's best Friend, Cats are man's adorable little serial killer
There are (an estimated) 85 million gun owners in the US. When you consider that you have to be at least 18, and that there are approximately 230 million citizens that are old enough to own one (legally), that's barely 1/3 of the eligible population. That 85 million people own approximately 250 million guns. At first, you'd say that's about 3 guns per gun owner, but there are a handful of folks that own as many as 100 guns, so that kind of skews the numbers a bit. Of the 85 million, it's estimated that roughly 80% only one one firearm. The rest are collectors that own multiple firearms. My wife and I personally have 10. One of my sisters (unmarried) has 5, another (married) has two. My dad (married)has four. I have a brother and another sister (neither are married) that don't own any. So that's 9 people with a total of 21 guns, so that puts us below the average of 3.n guns per person. If you don't count spouses, that's 7 people, and we're still below the per-capita ownership numbers. However, if you just look at me alone, 10 might seem like a lot, but then, I know guys with upwards of 50 guns.
Mendor81 wrote:
It's not the worst country judging by death's by firearms but number 28 is pretty high considering that the us is a internally political stable country oposed to honduras for example.
The country is politically stable because of the 2nd Amendment (at least partially). Did you ever hear about the Battle of Athens? Wiki[^] On Constitution.org (a much more complete description)[^]
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
... because GBH is clearly the appropriate response to attempted theft? Good lord, you're even more gun crazy than I thought.
I was in the military, standing watch with a side arm, and I was expected to use it if necessary. They don't expect personnel to be pussies while guarding a warship, and I was well trained in the use and maintenance of the pistol. I could just as easily have killed the guy outright, but I chose not to. I'm not gun crazy by any stretch of the imagination. I have three sporting 22's (two used for silhouette competition), a shotgun for home defense, and two 1911's and Ar15's, one for me, and one for the wife. Yes, we have a lot of ammo on hand, but that's because we practice quite a bit. Our "stockpile" of SHTF ammo consists of 16 loaded 30-round magazines for the AR15s (8 for each of us), and 14 7-round magazines for the pistols (7 for each of us). Anyone that expects to be able to lug around a few thousand rounds of extra ammo during a zombie apocalypse is deluding themselves. You grab what you can, bury the rest (if you have time), and head for the hills. In all actuality, I doubt the wife would take a rifle, but it's there if she wants it. My goal isn't to own a lot of guns and go around shooting people. My goal is to be able arm myself and my wife to a reasonable level, and in the event it's necessary. We're most certainly not "gun crazy".
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
Well, recognizing that I'm a very detached observer and therefore my criticisms may be unjustified, however: 1) By pursuing a car at high speeds, the police can cause more fatalities, injuries and damage. This was an issue in CA about 20 years ago and they passed laws that police were not to engage in high speed pursuits. (IIRC) 2) And they couldn't have blown out the tires or taken some other action? They couldn't have aimed just at the driver? Maybe they tried, as 80 or so of the 137 bullets did not apparently hit the driver or passenger. In any case, it smells of police not reigning in their own (understandable) rage, so it seems to me that the cops are as criminally negligent here as the driver. But like I said, I wasn't there, I certainly don't know all the facts, and I realize that I have an opinion that isn't necessarily even valid, sitting here in a warm house in NY. Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
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Computational Types in C# and F#The only time they get firearm practice is when they're shooting at civilians, just like in NYC.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
Does Canada have a 2nd Amendment? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2153936/Toronto-mall-shooting-Gunman-kills-wounds-seven-Toronto-Eaton-Centre-mall.html[^]
No but it's obviously the fault of our 2nd Amendment. Sheesh... :)
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
Well, recognizing that I'm a very detached observer and therefore my criticisms may be unjustified, however: 1) By pursuing a car at high speeds, the police can cause more fatalities, injuries and damage. This was an issue in CA about 20 years ago and they passed laws that police were not to engage in high speed pursuits. (IIRC) 2) And they couldn't have blown out the tires or taken some other action? They couldn't have aimed just at the driver? Maybe they tried, as 80 or so of the 137 bullets did not apparently hit the driver or passenger. In any case, it smells of police not reigning in their own (understandable) rage, so it seems to me that the cops are as criminally negligent here as the driver. But like I said, I wasn't there, I certainly don't know all the facts, and I realize that I have an opinion that isn't necessarily even valid, sitting here in a warm house in NY. Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
My Blog
Computational Types in C# and F#Marc Clifton wrote: 1) By pursuing a car at high speeds, the police can cause more fatalities, injuries and damage. This was an issue in CA about 20 years ago and they passed laws that police were not to engage in high speed pursuits. (IIRC) Interesting, I've always pulled over for police when they put their lights on. I've never fled at speeds of 100 mph. I've also never been shot 20+ times by the police. Marc Clifton wrote: 2) And they couldn't have blown out the tires or taken some other action? They couldn't have aimed just at the driver? I know a police officer who was hit by a fleeing suspect's car. He was hospitalized from his injuries. His partner fired on the car, killing the driver. I'd buy the cop a beer. I think the thought process is, once a car is used as a weapon, use force until it is no longer a weapon (moving). A car with blown tires is not immobile or non lethal. Honestly, do you really think that these 2 people are innocent victims?