Oregon Shooting
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Elrond wrote:
The difference is that in one case (cars, poisoning) it is mostly accidental death. In the other case (fire arms), it is mostly intentional death.
But with baseball bats, it's ALWAYS intentional.
Elrond wrote:
But mostly, not having fire arms works as well, as is the case in most Europe. You might like them, but civilians don't need to have them. :)
You may think you don't need firearms, but you're not us, so don't get all holier-than-thou where American's attitudes where firearms are concerned. You simply don't have the same history we do.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997I asked a German friend how they got rid of all the weapons that people would have possessed at the end of WWII. I was told that Germany passed a law mandating the death penalty for possession of a gun. All guns in private hands were turned in. You need a license to own a gun and even then the gun must be deposited at the nearby police station, to be picked and used only during the hunting season. Seems to work for the Germans and I think they have seen more wars than North Americans. :) :rose:
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... because GBH is clearly the appropriate response to attempted theft? Good lord, you're even more gun crazy than I thought.
Right, because violating the lawful orders of a superior officer is a much better option.
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Link[^] Yeah..2nd amendment makes perfectly sense if you're able to own semiautomatics... Or maybe he just was pissed at all the Christmas shoppers
Hmm i wonder why its doing that......ARGHS NO STOP, ROLLBACK ROLLBACK...F*** That's how i learned to "Always Backup"!! Dogs are man's best Friend, Cats are man's adorable little serial killer
Mendor81 wrote:
Yeah..2nd amendment makes perfectly sense if you're able to own semiautomatics...
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Link[^] Yeah..2nd amendment makes perfectly sense if you're able to own semiautomatics... Or maybe he just was pissed at all the Christmas shoppers
Hmm i wonder why its doing that......ARGHS NO STOP, ROLLBACK ROLLBACK...F*** That's how i learned to "Always Backup"!! Dogs are man's best Friend, Cats are man's adorable little serial killer
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Mendor81 wrote:
Yeah..2nd amendment makes perfectly sense if you're able to own semiautomatics...
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Computational Types in C# and F#They were armed, with a car. Time to outlaw those. http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/12/13_cleveland_police_officers_w.html[^] Russell had driven from downtown on Interstate 90 east through Bratenahl at speeds of up to 100 mph and rammed a police car before he exited the freeway and headed into East Cleveland, Gardner said. They surrounded the Malibu, and some officers were out of their cars when Russell rammed another police car, Gardner said. In the news conference, Follmer described it more forcefully. Russell “violently rammed a police car and almost struck an officer,” he said. Police are trained to use deadly force to stop a suspect from using a vehicle as a weapon. They opened fire.
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They were armed, with a car. Time to outlaw those. http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/12/13_cleveland_police_officers_w.html[^] Russell had driven from downtown on Interstate 90 east through Bratenahl at speeds of up to 100 mph and rammed a police car before he exited the freeway and headed into East Cleveland, Gardner said. They surrounded the Malibu, and some officers were out of their cars when Russell rammed another police car, Gardner said. In the news conference, Follmer described it more forcefully. Russell “violently rammed a police car and almost struck an officer,” he said. Police are trained to use deadly force to stop a suspect from using a vehicle as a weapon. They opened fire.
Well, recognizing that I'm a very detached observer and therefore my criticisms may be unjustified, however: 1) By pursuing a car at high speeds, the police can cause more fatalities, injuries and damage. This was an issue in CA about 20 years ago and they passed laws that police were not to engage in high speed pursuits. (IIRC) 2) And they couldn't have blown out the tires or taken some other action? They couldn't have aimed just at the driver? Maybe they tried, as 80 or so of the 137 bullets did not apparently hit the driver or passenger. In any case, it smells of police not reigning in their own (understandable) rage, so it seems to me that the cops are as criminally negligent here as the driver. But like I said, I wasn't there, I certainly don't know all the facts, and I realize that I have an opinion that isn't necessarily even valid, sitting here in a warm house in NY. Marc
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Here is a good relation of numbers and percentages[^] Spain has 4.500.000 firearms that means roughly a 10% of our population is armed. US has 270.000.000 firearms thats an 88.8 percent of the population according to the source. It's not the worst country judging by death's by firearms but number 28 is pretty high considering that the us is a internally political stable country oposed to honduras for example.
Hmm i wonder why its doing that......ARGHS NO STOP, ROLLBACK ROLLBACK...F*** That's how i learned to "Always Backup"!! Dogs are man's best Friend, Cats are man's adorable little serial killer
There are (an estimated) 85 million gun owners in the US. When you consider that you have to be at least 18, and that there are approximately 230 million citizens that are old enough to own one (legally), that's barely 1/3 of the eligible population. That 85 million people own approximately 250 million guns. At first, you'd say that's about 3 guns per gun owner, but there are a handful of folks that own as many as 100 guns, so that kind of skews the numbers a bit. Of the 85 million, it's estimated that roughly 80% only one one firearm. The rest are collectors that own multiple firearms. My wife and I personally have 10. One of my sisters (unmarried) has 5, another (married) has two. My dad (married)has four. I have a brother and another sister (neither are married) that don't own any. So that's 9 people with a total of 21 guns, so that puts us below the average of 3.n guns per person. If you don't count spouses, that's 7 people, and we're still below the per-capita ownership numbers. However, if you just look at me alone, 10 might seem like a lot, but then, I know guys with upwards of 50 guns.
Mendor81 wrote:
It's not the worst country judging by death's by firearms but number 28 is pretty high considering that the us is a internally political stable country oposed to honduras for example.
The country is politically stable because of the 2nd Amendment (at least partially). Did you ever hear about the Battle of Athens? Wiki[^] On Constitution.org (a much more complete description)[^]
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
... because GBH is clearly the appropriate response to attempted theft? Good lord, you're even more gun crazy than I thought.
I was in the military, standing watch with a side arm, and I was expected to use it if necessary. They don't expect personnel to be pussies while guarding a warship, and I was well trained in the use and maintenance of the pistol. I could just as easily have killed the guy outright, but I chose not to. I'm not gun crazy by any stretch of the imagination. I have three sporting 22's (two used for silhouette competition), a shotgun for home defense, and two 1911's and Ar15's, one for me, and one for the wife. Yes, we have a lot of ammo on hand, but that's because we practice quite a bit. Our "stockpile" of SHTF ammo consists of 16 loaded 30-round magazines for the AR15s (8 for each of us), and 14 7-round magazines for the pistols (7 for each of us). Anyone that expects to be able to lug around a few thousand rounds of extra ammo during a zombie apocalypse is deluding themselves. You grab what you can, bury the rest (if you have time), and head for the hills. In all actuality, I doubt the wife would take a rifle, but it's there if she wants it. My goal isn't to own a lot of guns and go around shooting people. My goal is to be able arm myself and my wife to a reasonable level, and in the event it's necessary. We're most certainly not "gun crazy".
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
Well, recognizing that I'm a very detached observer and therefore my criticisms may be unjustified, however: 1) By pursuing a car at high speeds, the police can cause more fatalities, injuries and damage. This was an issue in CA about 20 years ago and they passed laws that police were not to engage in high speed pursuits. (IIRC) 2) And they couldn't have blown out the tires or taken some other action? They couldn't have aimed just at the driver? Maybe they tried, as 80 or so of the 137 bullets did not apparently hit the driver or passenger. In any case, it smells of police not reigning in their own (understandable) rage, so it seems to me that the cops are as criminally negligent here as the driver. But like I said, I wasn't there, I certainly don't know all the facts, and I realize that I have an opinion that isn't necessarily even valid, sitting here in a warm house in NY. Marc
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Computational Types in C# and F#The only time they get firearm practice is when they're shooting at civilians, just like in NYC.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
Does Canada have a 2nd Amendment? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2153936/Toronto-mall-shooting-Gunman-kills-wounds-seven-Toronto-Eaton-Centre-mall.html[^]
No but it's obviously the fault of our 2nd Amendment. Sheesh... :)
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
Well, recognizing that I'm a very detached observer and therefore my criticisms may be unjustified, however: 1) By pursuing a car at high speeds, the police can cause more fatalities, injuries and damage. This was an issue in CA about 20 years ago and they passed laws that police were not to engage in high speed pursuits. (IIRC) 2) And they couldn't have blown out the tires or taken some other action? They couldn't have aimed just at the driver? Maybe they tried, as 80 or so of the 137 bullets did not apparently hit the driver or passenger. In any case, it smells of police not reigning in their own (understandable) rage, so it seems to me that the cops are as criminally negligent here as the driver. But like I said, I wasn't there, I certainly don't know all the facts, and I realize that I have an opinion that isn't necessarily even valid, sitting here in a warm house in NY. Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
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Computational Types in C# and F#Marc Clifton wrote: 1) By pursuing a car at high speeds, the police can cause more fatalities, injuries and damage. This was an issue in CA about 20 years ago and they passed laws that police were not to engage in high speed pursuits. (IIRC) Interesting, I've always pulled over for police when they put their lights on. I've never fled at speeds of 100 mph. I've also never been shot 20+ times by the police. Marc Clifton wrote: 2) And they couldn't have blown out the tires or taken some other action? They couldn't have aimed just at the driver? I know a police officer who was hit by a fleeing suspect's car. He was hospitalized from his injuries. His partner fired on the car, killing the driver. I'd buy the cop a beer. I think the thought process is, once a car is used as a weapon, use force until it is no longer a weapon (moving). A car with blown tires is not immobile or non lethal. Honestly, do you really think that these 2 people are innocent victims?
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The only time they get firearm practice is when they're shooting at civilians, just like in NYC.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
Marc Clifton wrote: 1) By pursuing a car at high speeds, the police can cause more fatalities, injuries and damage. This was an issue in CA about 20 years ago and they passed laws that police were not to engage in high speed pursuits. (IIRC) Interesting, I've always pulled over for police when they put their lights on. I've never fled at speeds of 100 mph. I've also never been shot 20+ times by the police. Marc Clifton wrote: 2) And they couldn't have blown out the tires or taken some other action? They couldn't have aimed just at the driver? I know a police officer who was hit by a fleeing suspect's car. He was hospitalized from his injuries. His partner fired on the car, killing the driver. I'd buy the cop a beer. I think the thought process is, once a car is used as a weapon, use force until it is no longer a weapon (moving). A car with blown tires is not immobile or non lethal. Honestly, do you really think that these 2 people are innocent victims?
wizardzz wrote:
Honestly, do you really think that these 2 people are innocent victims?
The passenger, certainly not being the driver of the car, yes, is innocent. As far as the driver goes, what was he guilty of? Reckless driving? Attempted manslaughter? Etc.? So, we have an execution instead of a trial by jury, guilty before innocent, and that is the way of the law, eh? The point being, the police are supposed to protect the citizens, even those committing crimes, and the innocent people, and also they are supposed to protect the law. The actions I read about don't seem to reflect this. That's my 2c. Marc
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Link[^] Yeah..2nd amendment makes perfectly sense if you're able to own semiautomatics... Or maybe he just was pissed at all the Christmas shoppers
Hmm i wonder why its doing that......ARGHS NO STOP, ROLLBACK ROLLBACK...F*** That's how i learned to "Always Backup"!! Dogs are man's best Friend, Cats are man's adorable little serial killer
Mendor81 wrote:
Yeah..2nd amendment makes perfectly sense if you're able to own semiautomatics...
No idea what that is supposed to mean. Certainly isn't clear what "able" means. As in being strong enough to pick one up? Certainly is in fact sensible that there is no such thing a perfect right though. Matter of fact that was specifically known by the framers of the constitution.
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The topic is "America has stupid gun laws". This comes up now and again. The exact same arguments are made by the exact same people each time. I don't think anyone has changed their minds yet, but it is American politics and shouldn't be here, and according to the Americans anyone who isn't shouldn't be allowed an opinion anyway.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
ChrisElston wrote:
according to the Americans anyone who isn't shouldn't be allowed an opinion anyway.
Actually pretty sure that the governments of those individuals are responsible for deciding whether they are entitled to an opinion and whether they can express it. Other than that the owner of this site would also have some say.
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Mendor81 wrote:
.2nd amendment makes perfectly sense if you're able to own semiautomatics...
Yes, it does. Europeans don't need to own firearms because their liberties and rights have already been infringed, and they're used to living that way. Americans don't want to live that way.
Mendor81 wrote:
Or maybe he just was pissed at all the Christmas shoppers
Unfortunately, he appears to have killed himself, so we can only guess at why he did it. Given the fact that he only used 1/3 of the capacity of his magazine in a crowded mall, I suspect the victims were people he knows. Of course, assuming that the mainstream media is doing its usual bang-up job, he may not have used a semi-auto rifle at all. This is what journalists use to identify weapons: Journalist Weapon Identification Guide[^]
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Yes, it does. Europeans don't need to own firearms because their liberties and rights have already been infringed, and they're used to living that way
The latter might be true but the former isn't since their society gets to make the rules. And even presuming that they have rights then the rights they have might not include the same ones.
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Yes, it does. Europeans don't need to own firearms because their liberties and rights have already been infringed, and they're used to living that way. Americans don't want to live that way.
Nope as you can see it's more like we know the dangers of civilians owning arsenals and found a way of resolving our differences in a more peaceful way. 10k Deaths a year is a good sign that something is wrong in your country. IMO
Hmm i wonder why its doing that......ARGHS NO STOP, ROLLBACK ROLLBACK...F*** That's how i learned to "Always Backup"!! Dogs are man's best Friend, Cats are man's adorable little serial killer
Mendor81 wrote:
Nope as you can see it's more like we know the dangers of civilians owning arsenals and found a way of resolving our differences in a more peaceful way.
Nonsensical over-simplification. Americans who actually understand the ramifications of the 2nd amendment are quite capable of understanding that weapons are dangerous. Just as the framers of the constitution did. Just as they are also capable of understanding the ramifications of other things like free speech. How it can be both positive and negative.
Mendor81 wrote:
10k Deaths a year is a good sign that something is wrong in your country. IMO
Given that humanity is complicated, 'improving' one thing very well could diminish something else.
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wizardzz wrote:
Honestly, do you really think that these 2 people are innocent victims?
The passenger, certainly not being the driver of the car, yes, is innocent. As far as the driver goes, what was he guilty of? Reckless driving? Attempted manslaughter? Etc.? So, we have an execution instead of a trial by jury, guilty before innocent, and that is the way of the law, eh? The point being, the police are supposed to protect the citizens, even those committing crimes, and the innocent people, and also they are supposed to protect the law. The actions I read about don't seem to reflect this. That's my 2c. Marc
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Computational Types in C# and F#In similar situations, I have seen charges of attempted murder and aggravated battery of a police officer.
Marc Clifton wrote:
The point being, the police are supposed to protect the citizens, even those committing crimes, and the innocent people, and also they are supposed to protect the law.
And also protect themselves and their partners.
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What do you have alarms and police for? We have robberies over here as well and in plain daylight. happened to a neighbor of mine. nobody got killed in the process. Neither he or i feel the need to go out and buy a gun. We did install alarms that same week though.
Hmm i wonder why its doing that......ARGHS NO STOP, ROLLBACK ROLLBACK...F*** That's how i learned to "Always Backup"!! Dogs are man's best Friend, Cats are man's adorable little serial killer
Mendor81 wrote:
What do you have alarms and police for?
Do you understand that the US constitution 2nd admendment is not just about that? And even more that it never was? Just as the free speech isn't just about the right to open ones mouth and say something.
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... because GBH is clearly the appropriate response to attempted theft? Good lord, you're even more gun crazy than I thought.
