Rant - I hate GIT
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This is one of the most pathetically complex things I've ever had to work with. It CONSTANTLY gets in the way of actually getting work done - I spend more time f***ing around with pushes and adds and branches and checkouts that I do actually making code changes!!! What a P.O.S. This diagram[^] near the bottom of the post says it all. Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
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Computational Types in C# and F#Learning curve: Two miles through the snow, uphill, both ways. But then: enlightment. I was lucky, had someone to hold my hand, still took me some weeks of daily use to get used to it. It is a pinnacle of "developers aren't users" software, so yeah, I see you pain. Yet I do not want to miss the workflow anymore I can have with git. All attempts to plaster a decent UI on top of it somehow make it worse, though.
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This is one of the most pathetically complex things I've ever had to work with. It CONSTANTLY gets in the way of actually getting work done - I spend more time f***ing around with pushes and adds and branches and checkouts that I do actually making code changes!!! What a P.O.S. This diagram[^] near the bottom of the post says it all. Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
My Blog
Computational Types in C# and F#Good news Marc, there is help[^]. :-D
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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lewax00 wrote:
get latest code
which involves checkouts, fetches, and pulls, none of which make any sense to me in my angry state. I want to simply check out the latest version. How hard should that be?
lewax00 wrote:
run script to make commits, pushes, etc.
The fact that you have SCRIPTS to do those things shows how complex they are. Commit to staging area. Push to remote. Rebase, pull, checkout, WTF??? Again, a simple "commit the changes to the repository" would be sufficient, and again, because I'm so angry that every time I try to start some productive work I end up first spending an hour (YES, A F***ING HOUR) fighting Git, I really have no patience for listening to how "it's my workflow." Maybe tomorrow I'll be in a better mood. Care to share your scripts? I might learn something! Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
My Blog
Computational Types in C# and F#Yeah, each step requires multiple commands; I'm not sure if I should like that. My typical workflow, when working on the main branch:
hacka hacka hackabecause that's part of our job, too.git guiSort the mess I coded into easily digestable commits. UI sucks, but does the job. (at command line, this would begit add,git commit) alternatively / if this is not good enough:git rebase -i pub/masterto reorder, clean up and combine commits.git fetch pubto get all changes from the other guys.git rebase pub/masterPut my pending changes on top of the other guys changesgitkLook at the commits the other guys made, just to get an idea what they are on.git push peterchen masterbackup current state to remote repo (often involving -f)ph mkBuild the code. If it compiles, it's good to go!git push pub masterPush my changes to the main repo Sometimes, curse at whoever made a push pub master in the meantime repeat the recent steps since fetch, omitting all the quality checks to get the code pushed and pray that I didn't break the pub repo
The data model takes a bit to wrap your head around. git stores revisions, but most commands actually move around changes between revisions. Branches and tags act like "pins", everything that is not directly or indirectly pinned gets garbage collected. I have a local "temp" branch that I use for intermediates I want to save before messing around. (you could use git stash, but it's only good if you are 101% sure it will be short-lived). Larger independent developments go on a branch. master is merged into that dev branch from time to time, when the code is good to go, dev branch is merged into master. That's it. peterchens 5 minutes of git.
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Sounds more like your workflow is the problem to me. I tend to script any repeated tasks with more than a couple steps, so my workflow generally becomes: get latest code -> make changes -> run script to make commits, pushes, etc. which is basically the same as using anything else. Personally, I wish we used Git or Mercurial here, because our commit process strongly discourages putting partially complete things in the repository, and I'd like to have some of the benefits of version control (especially revert) when I'm working on something larger that has be made as one commit to the repository. I wonder if there's a way to set up Git locally to push to CVS...
The fact that you even have "repeated tasks with more than a couple steps" is WTF-worthy in something which is supposed to make your life easier. In SVN you have one-click (or one-command) 'update' and 'commit' for the most common tasks. If you can't do that in GIT without scripting then it is objectively worse for the 99% case.
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Good news Marc, there is help[^]. :-D
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
In my case, no, because it's a Ruby on Rails app, and I'm using RubyMine as the editor (pretty slick product) but it's figuring out RM's support of Git without first understanding how to use Git from the command line is not a good idea. Once I get the command line stuff under my belt, then I can poke around RM's GUI support and see what it's doing (it has a nice display of what it's telling Git to do.) Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
My Blog
Computational Types in C# and F# -
Yeah, each step requires multiple commands; I'm not sure if I should like that. My typical workflow, when working on the main branch:
hacka hacka hackabecause that's part of our job, too.git guiSort the mess I coded into easily digestable commits. UI sucks, but does the job. (at command line, this would begit add,git commit) alternatively / if this is not good enough:git rebase -i pub/masterto reorder, clean up and combine commits.git fetch pubto get all changes from the other guys.git rebase pub/masterPut my pending changes on top of the other guys changesgitkLook at the commits the other guys made, just to get an idea what they are on.git push peterchen masterbackup current state to remote repo (often involving -f)ph mkBuild the code. If it compiles, it's good to go!git push pub masterPush my changes to the main repo Sometimes, curse at whoever made a push pub master in the meantime repeat the recent steps since fetch, omitting all the quality checks to get the code pushed and pray that I didn't break the pub repo
The data model takes a bit to wrap your head around. git stores revisions, but most commands actually move around changes between revisions. Branches and tags act like "pins", everything that is not directly or indirectly pinned gets garbage collected. I have a local "temp" branch that I use for intermediates I want to save before messing around. (you could use git stash, but it's only good if you are 101% sure it will be short-lived). Larger independent developments go on a branch. master is merged into that dev branch from time to time, when the code is good to go, dev branch is merged into master. That's it. peterchens 5 minutes of git.
Thanks, that is helpful! Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
My Blog
Computational Types in C# and F# -
Learning curve: Two miles through the snow, uphill, both ways. But then: enlightment. I was lucky, had someone to hold my hand, still took me some weeks of daily use to get used to it. It is a pinnacle of "developers aren't users" software, so yeah, I see you pain. Yet I do not want to miss the workflow anymore I can have with git. All attempts to plaster a decent UI on top of it somehow make it worse, though.
peterchen wrote:
I was lucky, had someone to hold my hand,
Fortunately, I do to, but I work at home and my client works at home, and we don't live in the same home, so often enough I have to figure things out on my own. Worse thing is, I thought I had it under control, but then discovered something yesterday that I couldn't work around. My solution? Deleted the whole project and re-cloned it from the remote. Maybe that's what I'll just do as s.o.p, hahaha. Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
My Blog
Computational Types in C# and F# -
The fact that you even have "repeated tasks with more than a couple steps" is WTF-worthy in something which is supposed to make your life easier. In SVN you have one-click (or one-command) 'update' and 'commit' for the most common tasks. If you can't do that in GIT without scripting then it is objectively worse for the 99% case.
I meant that as a general statement, not as Git specific. I script anything and everything I can. For example, since I find myself working with Base64 encoded files often, I now have scripts on my path to encode and decode Base64, a set for strings and a set for files (I could combine them, but that would be more work than having 2 sets honestly). As far as Git goes, the only common task I've encountered with more than one step is commit+push, but not every commit needs a push.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I've just tried the TFS Online and it's incredibly simple.
I use SVN for my own projects and one of my clients used SVN, which I find incredibly easy to use. A new client is using Git, and they love it. I'm trying to see the inner beauty, but right now, Git looks like a wrinkled, fat, ugly w**** with sallow alcoholic skin and cigarette stained teeth. Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
My Blog
Computational Types in C# and F# -
This is one of the most pathetically complex things I've ever had to work with. It CONSTANTLY gets in the way of actually getting work done - I spend more time f***ing around with pushes and adds and branches and checkouts that I do actually making code changes!!! What a P.O.S. This diagram[^] near the bottom of the post says it all. Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
My Blog
Computational Types in C# and F#I now work with a guy who is completely confused about how to use SVN...Constantly complaining about how someone else used to manage making commits for his source code. X|
Common sense is admitting there is cause and effect and that you can exert some control over what you understand.
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I now work with a guy who is completely confused about how to use SVN...Constantly complaining about how someone else used to manage making commits for his source code. X|
Common sense is admitting there is cause and effect and that you can exert some control over what you understand.
S Douglas wrote:
Constantly complaining about how someone else used to manage making commits for his source code.
Wow. How dificult is right-click on a folder and select Commit? Well, if you're using Tortoise SVN. Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
My Blog
Computational Types in C# and F# -
S Douglas wrote:
Constantly complaining about how someone else used to manage making commits for his source code.
Wow. How dificult is right-click on a folder and select Commit? Well, if you're using Tortoise SVN. Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
My Blog
Computational Types in C# and F#Marc Clifton wrote:
if you're using Tortoise SVN.
Yea, we are and it is that easy... I am beginning to believe he just wants something to complain about. X|
Common sense is admitting there is cause and effect and that you can exert some control over what you understand.
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This is one of the most pathetically complex things I've ever had to work with. It CONSTANTLY gets in the way of actually getting work done - I spend more time f***ing around with pushes and adds and branches and checkouts that I do actually making code changes!!! What a P.O.S. This diagram[^] near the bottom of the post says it all. Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
My Blog
Computational Types in C# and F# -
This is one of the most pathetically complex things I've ever had to work with. It CONSTANTLY gets in the way of actually getting work done - I spend more time f***ing around with pushes and adds and branches and checkouts that I do actually making code changes!!! What a P.O.S. This diagram[^] near the bottom of the post says it all. Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
My Blog
Computational Types in C# and F# -
Amrykid wrote:
OK, that looks really useful. Much appreciated!!! Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
My Blog
Computational Types in C# and F# -
This is one of the most pathetically complex things I've ever had to work with. It CONSTANTLY gets in the way of actually getting work done - I spend more time f***ing around with pushes and adds and branches and checkouts that I do actually making code changes!!! What a P.O.S. This diagram[^] near the bottom of the post says it all. Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
My Blog
Computational Types in C# and F#Git and SVN solve different problems. You should use the one most suited to your current project/needs. SVN is a centralized whereas Git is a distributed. With SVN, you have a local working copy and with Git you have a local repository. It is for this reason it may seem that Git is overly complex. If you want to fork a repo and add features that will be different from the projects original goals then Git might just work best for you. If you want a group of individuals contributing to a common code base then SVN will be your best bet. :)
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This is one of the most pathetically complex things I've ever had to work with. It CONSTANTLY gets in the way of actually getting work done - I spend more time f***ing around with pushes and adds and branches and checkouts that I do actually making code changes!!! What a P.O.S. This diagram[^] near the bottom of the post says it all. Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
My Blog
Computational Types in C# and F#I strongly disagree with you guys. I have working with Git and SVN for quite a while - in different environments and at different companies, and I prefer Git to SVN. At the end of the day - I found that Git is much stronger and you are able to do so much more with it that thing SVN. Yes sure to get to all the nice interesting stuff it takes some understanding - but if you think about it development is the same. If you think you will become a developer with only a bit of understanding of general concepts you are wrong. <-- this is especially to all the Graphic Designer who this that they are developers thanks to WordPress and Drupal :mad: Git is not all that complex and the features (pros) out way the learning curve (cons) I would say. I am not saying that there is something wrong with SVN or that Git is better - it different and its all dependent on what you want to do, and how much you are willing to learn. :doh: This is quite a good blog regarding Git and SVN:[why is git better than subversion]<-- don't judge the blog by the title In the defense of git:[10 things i love about git]
"Always code as if the person who will maintain your code is a maniac serial killer that knows where you live."
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I'd have to agree though. I prefer Subversion. Once you get a handle on it, it's incredibly simple to use.
I was brought up to respect my elders. I don't respect many people nowadays.
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Generally I don't need more than a pull to get the code, then commit and push to submit it. I've had a few projects with branches, but I wasn't switching frequently. Maybe I just haven't worked in a large enough project. I'm not sure where my scripts are at the moment though, I fear they may be on my now dead laptop, because that's where I've done most of my Git based work from, but most of them were either just a series of commands I performed routinely (e.g. go to root of git repo, commit all changes, push) with some parameters for branch names, comments, etc. Nothing extremely complicated. I only had a few more complex ones, like one that went back and branched a project I had gotten way ahead on for a class at each commit with a message containing a chapter number (fortunately, I was basically using a template for my commit messages) so I could just checkout the code for that chapter and submit it for grading, and a second to merge back some file adds when I realized I had forgot to add some files to some of the earlier commits rendering many of the older branches uncompilable, but those were one-time scripts that were faster to write than to do manually 20+ times. The second one could probably be modified into a decent merge script if I could find it.
Marc Clifton wrote:
I really have no patience for listening to how "it's my workflow."
I probably could have worded that a bit better, I don't necessarily mean your personal workflow, but also the workflow that's been imposed upon you (similar to the reason why I can't make commits when I would prefer). I don't find myself changing branches often, but our VCS is so messed up that I have to keep a separate local workspace for each branch because switching between them somehow renders the workspace un-buildable, and even simple tasks like merging a change to another branch becomes a real pain. If I had to work in an environment where I was frequently branching and merging on this system I feel that I'd be in the same position, but not at the fault of the VCS system, the problem would be the poorly managed repository (to be honest, no one actually knows how to make it build, everyone just copies a working copy from someone else, checking it out from the repo doesn't work and no one has ever bother to figure out why and fix it...I suspect the reason is buried somewhere in the thousands of build errors that are just ignored).
WHS!
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This is one of the most pathetically complex things I've ever had to work with. It CONSTANTLY gets in the way of actually getting work done - I spend more time f***ing around with pushes and adds and branches and checkouts that I do actually making code changes!!! What a P.O.S. This diagram[^] near the bottom of the post says it all. Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
My Blog
Computational Types in C# and F#The problem with Git is that Linus has been quoted in saying something along the lines of "Git isn't a tool [solution], it's a framework." This lead me to believe that you should really have a few scripts set up that do the heavy-lifting for you. SVN is a tool, it does what it is designed for and nothing more: by using SVN you subscribe the workflow imposed by the SVN developers and have no versatility, where Git can be jimmied into basically any workflow. GitHub for Windows also gets rid of a lot of the pain (really, one-click pushing and pulling) - and it isn't only for GitHub repositories[^]. In a similar light, Microsoft have released the GitHub integration for Visual Studio and I assume it will be of the same caliber (read: simplicity) as TFS. I only drop to the CLI when I really need to these days, and haven't needed to in a couple of months: the Windows tooling is great for it, if you know it's there.
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Chinese Proverb] Jonathan C Dickinson (C# Software Engineer)