The cost of software
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You bring up a good point. Advertising is the other leg of revenue in mobile. Anyone making any money from advertising on mobile apps? Would be interested in what the numbers are in terms of revenue versus downloads. From what I've read it's still miniscule income for all but the lucky few.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
While ad income tends to be relatively low, what brings in the bucks is In App Purchases - it is astonishing to me, but lots of olk out there will pay 99c for their character to wear a different hat.
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Along those lines, if you sell 100 copies, which is probably a realistic figure, you're working for $1 an hour. I could be wrong, but I think you're worth more than that. :)
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
Isn't this similar with books, though? It takes a long time to write a novel, but you ain't going to either sell a million or sell it at $50 a copy - and as the author of a published book you aren't getting much more than 99c a copy anyway !
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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GuyThiebaut wrote:
which usually contains an add with a big green download button on it :->
Oh, you're one of those guys... :rolleyes: So you're talking around .04 per click. Yeah, have to be a whole lotta clicking goin' on to make any money like that.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
Christopher Duncan wrote:
Oh, you're one of those guys... :rolleyes:
The funny bit is that I am not as I have no control over the individual advert - the only control I have is that I can exclude certain categories(buy a bride, dodgy medicine and adult sites are on that list for my site). I think google use some algorithm to match the advert to the page, which happens to be a download page.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Real figures from a real game Here - makes interesting reading[^]
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Looks like a good read, thanks!
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
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Yeah, everyone's fixated on the "sell it a million times" thing. Guys, seriously, you have a better chance of winning the lottery than you do selling a million copies of a mobile app.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
There are other non-tangeable benefits, such as, the experience of doing something like this (could result in a job offer) and street-cred for making an app that people paid for (also, resume-icing).
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After spending a few hundred bucks on an iPad Mini, I went through the process of setting everything up. Hadn't used Instapaper and wanted to give it a try so I set up an account on their website and then went to download the iPad app. At that point, I hesitated because of the cost. It was 4 dollars. Really. After a brief moment I realized how stupid that was and bought the app. It's nice getting stuff for free or on the cheap but this really bugs me. These days, software is supposed to be free and if you actually have to pay for it, gosh, it really shouldn't cost more than 99 cents or it's way overpriced. As a professional software developer, I can't imagine why someone would go to all the trouble of writing professional quality software and then selling it for a dollar. Or even 4. This is why I don't write mobile apps on the side. I mean, seriously, try getting a plumber out to your house for 4 dollars. [edit] Since this appears to be the common thinking... Guys - you're not going to sell a million copies. You'll be lucky to sell 100. Lots of studies on this and the fallacy of Gold Rush thinking. And so the question - who are these people who are willing to work so cheaply, and are they free this weekend to mow my lawn? :-D [/edit]
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
Quote:
I can't imagine why someone would go to all the trouble of writing professional quality software and then selling it for a dollar.
If that's where the market values it, then so be it. We can wring our hands all we want about devaluing our profession, but in the end, it's always the consumer who decides the price they will buy at, not the seller.
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Quote:
I can't imagine why someone would go to all the trouble of writing professional quality software and then selling it for a dollar.
If that's where the market values it, then so be it. We can wring our hands all we want about devaluing our profession, but in the end, it's always the consumer who decides the price they will buy at, not the seller.
Clearly, you've never worked in sales. :)
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
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That'a a fair point. I think what bothers me is the devaluation of what I do for a living. Once upon a time, spending $100 on professional quality software was pretty cheap. I routinely spend way more than that for dev, audio and video tools. Try listing an app on the App Store for $100 and you'll get death threats. With mobile being all the rage these days, and rightly so for the benefits it brings, why am I expected to work for staggeringly ridiculous prices in mobile compared to desktop software? That would suggest that mobile apps are only worth a tiny fraction of their desktop brethren. And yet, everyone's talking about how the desktop PC is legacy and destined to die. I don't think there's a legitimate reason for this pricing in terms of cost / value. It's just a trend that got started (looking at you, Apple). And as a guy who gets paid to sling code, I dislike the notion that we should work for less than minimum wage.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
Christopher Duncan wrote:
I think what bothers me is the devaluation of what I do for a living
And what happens when you work 80+ hours a week at your salaried job? Do they pay you more?
Christopher Duncan wrote:
Once upon a time, spending $100 on professional quality software was pretty cheap.
At least for the tools that I use the price has gone up significantly. A new MSDN subscription used to be less than $1000 and upgrades less than that. VS major upgrades used to be just about $100. Visio at one time was free and was fairly inexpensive once they started charging.
Christopher Duncan wrote:
And yet, everyone's talking about how the desktop PC is legacy and destined to die.
People who can actually predict the future should do so by making money and retiring. All others are just shooting off their mouths.
Christopher Duncan wrote:
And as a guy who gets paid to sling code, I dislike the notion that we should work for less than minimum wage.
Do you have any hobbies? How many people do you think do things like build furniture, cars, jewelry, ride horses, plant gardens, make wine, etc make more than the minimum wage doing it? For that matter how many manage to actually make any net profit from it?
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
I think what bothers me is the devaluation of what I do for a living
And what happens when you work 80+ hours a week at your salaried job? Do they pay you more?
Christopher Duncan wrote:
Once upon a time, spending $100 on professional quality software was pretty cheap.
At least for the tools that I use the price has gone up significantly. A new MSDN subscription used to be less than $1000 and upgrades less than that. VS major upgrades used to be just about $100. Visio at one time was free and was fairly inexpensive once they started charging.
Christopher Duncan wrote:
And yet, everyone's talking about how the desktop PC is legacy and destined to die.
People who can actually predict the future should do so by making money and retiring. All others are just shooting off their mouths.
Christopher Duncan wrote:
And as a guy who gets paid to sling code, I dislike the notion that we should work for less than minimum wage.
Do you have any hobbies? How many people do you think do things like build furniture, cars, jewelry, ride horses, plant gardens, make wine, etc make more than the minimum wage doing it? For that matter how many manage to actually make any net profit from it?
Well, as far as the 80 hour thing goes, that's why I work by the hour, so yes, I do get paid more. And yeah, prices have gone up a lot but really just on the desktop side of things. Mobile app pricing seems to be caught in the iTunes / mp3 model. I just think all you guys who do mobile apps are talented and should be compensated better than that. This stuff is a lot of work, regardless of platform. Hobbies? Oh, lord. My entire life is a hobby. I write code (what, you thought that was work?), play in bands, write books, do speaking gigs, do audio & video production and on occasion I even try this sleeping thing I've heard so much about. Most of that stuff I either make money on or am headed in that direction but that's not to say that a hobby has to make a buck. I just tend to make a living doing the things I love. If someone likes writing apps just for the joy of doing it, I think that's great. I just hate to see opportunity diminish for those who want to write apps and pay the bills with them. I think there's room in this world for both, but only if the business model supports the latter.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
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After spending a few hundred bucks on an iPad Mini, I went through the process of setting everything up. Hadn't used Instapaper and wanted to give it a try so I set up an account on their website and then went to download the iPad app. At that point, I hesitated because of the cost. It was 4 dollars. Really. After a brief moment I realized how stupid that was and bought the app. It's nice getting stuff for free or on the cheap but this really bugs me. These days, software is supposed to be free and if you actually have to pay for it, gosh, it really shouldn't cost more than 99 cents or it's way overpriced. As a professional software developer, I can't imagine why someone would go to all the trouble of writing professional quality software and then selling it for a dollar. Or even 4. This is why I don't write mobile apps on the side. I mean, seriously, try getting a plumber out to your house for 4 dollars. [edit] Since this appears to be the common thinking... Guys - you're not going to sell a million copies. You'll be lucky to sell 100. Lots of studies on this and the fallacy of Gold Rush thinking. And so the question - who are these people who are willing to work so cheaply, and are they free this weekend to mow my lawn? :-D [/edit]
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
You're forgetting that most apps, especially the free ones, also earn revenue because they have advertising in them. I have no idea how much that can generate for someone publishing the app or how they calculate that stuff...but a price tag of .99 doesn't necessarily mean the app will bring in .99 (minus apple's cut) for each sale. Does anyone know how they calculate how much you get if you include advertising in an app?
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You're forgetting that most apps, especially the free ones, also earn revenue because they have advertising in them. I have no idea how much that can generate for someone publishing the app or how they calculate that stuff...but a price tag of .99 doesn't necessarily mean the app will bring in .99 (minus apple's cut) for each sale. Does anyone know how they calculate how much you get if you include advertising in an app?
One of the guys indicated around 4 cents per click. But of course, that's only if you get a click. How many ads to you click on?
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
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One of the guys indicated around 4 cents per click. But of course, that's only if you get a click. How many ads to you click on?
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
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After spending a few hundred bucks on an iPad Mini, I went through the process of setting everything up. Hadn't used Instapaper and wanted to give it a try so I set up an account on their website and then went to download the iPad app. At that point, I hesitated because of the cost. It was 4 dollars. Really. After a brief moment I realized how stupid that was and bought the app. It's nice getting stuff for free or on the cheap but this really bugs me. These days, software is supposed to be free and if you actually have to pay for it, gosh, it really shouldn't cost more than 99 cents or it's way overpriced. As a professional software developer, I can't imagine why someone would go to all the trouble of writing professional quality software and then selling it for a dollar. Or even 4. This is why I don't write mobile apps on the side. I mean, seriously, try getting a plumber out to your house for 4 dollars. [edit] Since this appears to be the common thinking... Guys - you're not going to sell a million copies. You'll be lucky to sell 100. Lots of studies on this and the fallacy of Gold Rush thinking. And so the question - who are these people who are willing to work so cheaply, and are they free this weekend to mow my lawn? :-D [/edit]
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
I see the app market as a lottery. With the right investments you can improve your chances (buying more tickets), as with some cleverness (using unusual numbers to increase profit). It comes, however, with the irrationalities of any lottery, and it's at the same time comforting and disheartening how developers, geeks, guys who are supposed to have a, you know, A BRAIN, find patterns in the noise and dothe victory dance voer pieces ofr glitter. As for cost: apps made software truly mass market, just like bubble tea. Any profit is worthwhile if you multiply it by millions. Just remember that the app stores typically keep a quarter or a third of all proceedings, before production cost. They are the winners - and any lottery with such terms might be illegal in some places.
The hesitation is good, actually. The appeal of the mass market is fire and forget impulse buys. Small amounts are spent much quicker, more than making up in volume. (I haven't seen a study at the low end, just some extrapolation from other markets - but at least emprically, it seems to work well). What that means for traditional development - I don't know. Quite possibly, there quality and necessity will create a niche - an remote ivory tower - of high cost products. based on the assumption that great software gets abused in ways never intended by the creator: mass market products will get more restrictive to maintain minimum quality and keep down cost. So as a whole, a somewhat bleak outlook for us old farts, yet I'm still willing to wait out what the future brings before I shake my whippersnapperhitting cane.
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That'a a fair point. I think what bothers me is the devaluation of what I do for a living. Once upon a time, spending $100 on professional quality software was pretty cheap. I routinely spend way more than that for dev, audio and video tools. Try listing an app on the App Store for $100 and you'll get death threats. With mobile being all the rage these days, and rightly so for the benefits it brings, why am I expected to work for staggeringly ridiculous prices in mobile compared to desktop software? That would suggest that mobile apps are only worth a tiny fraction of their desktop brethren. And yet, everyone's talking about how the desktop PC is legacy and destined to die. I don't think there's a legitimate reason for this pricing in terms of cost / value. It's just a trend that got started (looking at you, Apple). And as a guy who gets paid to sling code, I dislike the notion that we should work for less than minimum wage.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
Christopher Duncan wrote:
I don't think there's a legitimate reason for this pricing in terms of cost / value.
I beg to differ. Maybe there aren't enough legitimate reasons but I do believe there is one legitimate reason at leas: "Reach". Mobile apps reach a far wider audience than non traditional desktop apps and have a great appeal to low income people and since "pirating" mobile apps is much harder than desktop apps, it actually encourages low income people to buy those. Since they are affordable, low income people actually buy them. Of course what I am talking about is not about every market, but the beauty of mobile apps is that it reaches every market. Another side of the story is that the 1,99 apps are usually very simple and you can find lots of them in desktop versions for free. You cannot compare Visual Studio to a 1,99 app. They don't get even close when it comes to cost of production. I once developed a simple app for ovi store, made a hundred bucks with it, but it only took me a couple of nights, plus I got to learn Qt C++. Fun!
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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After spending a few hundred bucks on an iPad Mini, I went through the process of setting everything up. Hadn't used Instapaper and wanted to give it a try so I set up an account on their website and then went to download the iPad app. At that point, I hesitated because of the cost. It was 4 dollars. Really. After a brief moment I realized how stupid that was and bought the app. It's nice getting stuff for free or on the cheap but this really bugs me. These days, software is supposed to be free and if you actually have to pay for it, gosh, it really shouldn't cost more than 99 cents or it's way overpriced. As a professional software developer, I can't imagine why someone would go to all the trouble of writing professional quality software and then selling it for a dollar. Or even 4. This is why I don't write mobile apps on the side. I mean, seriously, try getting a plumber out to your house for 4 dollars. [edit] Since this appears to be the common thinking... Guys - you're not going to sell a million copies. You'll be lucky to sell 100. Lots of studies on this and the fallacy of Gold Rush thinking. And so the question - who are these people who are willing to work so cheaply, and are they free this weekend to mow my lawn? :-D [/edit]
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
RSA Animate - Drive: The surprising truth about what motivates us Starting at 7:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc[^]
Eric
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After spending a few hundred bucks on an iPad Mini, I went through the process of setting everything up. Hadn't used Instapaper and wanted to give it a try so I set up an account on their website and then went to download the iPad app. At that point, I hesitated because of the cost. It was 4 dollars. Really. After a brief moment I realized how stupid that was and bought the app. It's nice getting stuff for free or on the cheap but this really bugs me. These days, software is supposed to be free and if you actually have to pay for it, gosh, it really shouldn't cost more than 99 cents or it's way overpriced. As a professional software developer, I can't imagine why someone would go to all the trouble of writing professional quality software and then selling it for a dollar. Or even 4. This is why I don't write mobile apps on the side. I mean, seriously, try getting a plumber out to your house for 4 dollars. [edit] Since this appears to be the common thinking... Guys - you're not going to sell a million copies. You'll be lucky to sell 100. Lots of studies on this and the fallacy of Gold Rush thinking. And so the question - who are these people who are willing to work so cheaply, and are they free this weekend to mow my lawn? :-D [/edit]
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
Actually the desktop market is heading the same direction: Portals like Steam and Origin sell new top titles as well as Indie games at a fraction of the standard price. Apparently enough people are buying these programs and games to make it feasible. And it doesn't stop companies to offer the same titles for full price at retail. I'm not sure what to make of that, but more and more companies use these portals.
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
As a professional software developer, I can't imagine why someone would go to all the trouble of writing professional quality software and then selling it for a dollar
Because £1 x 10000 = £100 * 100, so for small throwaway apps the model makes sense. Do anything complicated and that model breaks down I suppose, unless you can do things like sell cloud services on the back of your app. I wonder if there are any stats on this sort of thing (cost of development vs sales vs profit) for device based apps?
“Education is not the piling on of learning, information, data, facts, skills, or abilities - that's training or instruction - but is rather making visible what is hidden as a seed”
“One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated”Sir Thomas More (1478 – 1535)
A friend of mine who works and has visibility on these stats at one of the two mentioned above told me that 95% of the devs make less than $1k a year. Then again if you can do something worthwhile you will arrive in a helicopter. But there is one flaw in the original post, it is not gold rush thinking only. I do apps and I've received only about $25 from the App Store but what I learned there I have applied in my consulting business with very nice results and even better, they are my portfolio for showing what I can do. I get to an office and I want a demo and I tell the guy: let me show you an app that does something similar... Works great! And last but not least, every single time a person downloads one of my apps or registers on the web based ones, I get a small rush that money doesn't buy! Remember that happiness is not a destination, it is a journey.
www.cloudclipx.com and www.ccview.com -- If I have 8 hours to chop down a tree, I spend 6 sharpening my ax!
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That'a a fair point. I think what bothers me is the devaluation of what I do for a living. Once upon a time, spending $100 on professional quality software was pretty cheap. I routinely spend way more than that for dev, audio and video tools. Try listing an app on the App Store for $100 and you'll get death threats. With mobile being all the rage these days, and rightly so for the benefits it brings, why am I expected to work for staggeringly ridiculous prices in mobile compared to desktop software? That would suggest that mobile apps are only worth a tiny fraction of their desktop brethren. And yet, everyone's talking about how the desktop PC is legacy and destined to die. I don't think there's a legitimate reason for this pricing in terms of cost / value. It's just a trend that got started (looking at you, Apple). And as a guy who gets paid to sling code, I dislike the notion that we should work for less than minimum wage.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
It's all about distribution. Before with $100 software you needed a lot of marketing and had a very small reach. Now you have 500 MM people with credit cards, instant access and if you go viral, they you become PSY hehe
My new toy: www.cloudclipx.com -- If I have 8 hours to chop down a tree, I spend 6 sharpening my ax!
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After spending a few hundred bucks on an iPad Mini, I went through the process of setting everything up. Hadn't used Instapaper and wanted to give it a try so I set up an account on their website and then went to download the iPad app. At that point, I hesitated because of the cost. It was 4 dollars. Really. After a brief moment I realized how stupid that was and bought the app. It's nice getting stuff for free or on the cheap but this really bugs me. These days, software is supposed to be free and if you actually have to pay for it, gosh, it really shouldn't cost more than 99 cents or it's way overpriced. As a professional software developer, I can't imagine why someone would go to all the trouble of writing professional quality software and then selling it for a dollar. Or even 4. This is why I don't write mobile apps on the side. I mean, seriously, try getting a plumber out to your house for 4 dollars. [edit] Since this appears to be the common thinking... Guys - you're not going to sell a million copies. You'll be lucky to sell 100. Lots of studies on this and the fallacy of Gold Rush thinking. And so the question - who are these people who are willing to work so cheaply, and are they free this weekend to mow my lawn? :-D [/edit]
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
Long live to the free market!... That's the problem when you have a fierce competition with another thousand "me too" apps, the only ones that make bucks are the ones that were there since the beginning, or are exceptionally good at what they do; the other 999 ones are niche and may be looked at when people realize they're paying "too much" for their favorite app.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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Along those lines, if you sell 100 copies, which is probably a realistic figure, you're working for $1 an hour. I could be wrong, but I think you're worth more than that. :)
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
My line of thinking: I did ccview.com which allows me to present remotely my power point from a tablet, which very few people have bought. When I showed to a guy he liked the concept and we built a small version for showcasing cars in a show. I made 5 grand from the other non store app, which I sold because the guy saw something already working. So many hours on ccview.com meant $0. But then a demo and a couple of weeks of (night) work meant $5k for me. Not bad?
My new toy: www.cloudclipx.com -- If I have 8 hours to chop down a tree, I spend 6 sharpening my ax!