I think Ubuntu is still not ready for the desktop ( and won't be any soon .... )
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It amazes me how often Linux advocates resort to telling users that the problem is with them rather than the system being unfriendly. Further, the community is in my experience prone to insulting new users - the "if you can't figure this out you're dumb" approach can only help alienate users.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Force yourself to use it for a year, and come back.
Exactly - not ready for a desktop OS yet.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
So true. Linux people so often shoot themselves in the foot with the attitude problem. However, I think you are dead wrong about Linux being unready or unfriendly. :-O
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So it won't preserve them, then? That's no better than a Windows platform editor 'cleaning' Linux line endings and helpfully adding the \r for you. N++ will let you re-encode a file if you actually want that, but it doesn't change a file unless you ask it to.
It's a lot better actually; we don't have to write a bash script on Linux for use on windows, so standardised Unix lines are just fine. I guess if you wanted to transfer Python or Ruby scripts, Windows might nag you, but they would run. In short, Windows line endings will disable Linux scripts, but not vice versa, which is probably why Gedit doesn't default to leaving things alone.
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It's a lot better actually; we don't have to write a bash script on Linux for use on windows, so standardised Unix lines are just fine. I guess if you wanted to transfer Python or Ruby scripts, Windows might nag you, but they would run. In short, Windows line endings will disable Linux scripts, but not vice versa, which is probably why Gedit doesn't default to leaving things alone.
Incidentally, I'm not trying to diss ++. It's a good programme. For Windows.
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why? Here is the story : Today for setting up ns-3,i installed Ubuntu(through wubi) on my dev box ( Win 7 ) and spent all day inside it. Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear. 1 - I needed to install python 2 - I needed to install TCL. 3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 ) 4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it. 5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog! 6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance! 7- Process Explorer Equivalent? No chance! ( i found one but it wanted to download 61MB of software !!!! ) 8 - Gtalk? Yahoo Messenger? Still no chance! OK. I used Empathy, but it did not authenticated me to my yahoo account! :sigh: 9 - Foxit Reader? OK! The only tabbed applications in Linux are web browsers and Terminal window! So, no tabbed pdf viewer you can see there. 10 - I have another monitor attached to my laptop. I needed to assign the dashboard to my own preferred desktop. No Chance! :sigh: And the list goes on .... You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong! why? Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work. Maybe it works for some basic tasks like web surfing or word/image processing, but behind that, you are facing the terrible fact: you have to setup what ever you want by your hand and the most important is learning some scripting language ( python, bash, TCL, etc.). Ubuntu has tried to fix this problem with its own 'Ubuntu Software Center' and it is an awesome effort, but there is still plenty of work to be done. The user should not search the web for dependencies or libraries needed for certain application to get work. After all, i think the whole Linux culture should be changed because people out there, are not developer.
Behzad
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MonoDevelop. You can load a project built in Visual Studio directly, rebuild it with trifling modifications in most cases, and run it on Linux. Or-build a completely new Gtk interface for the business code.
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You can even edit and compile your application on Windows (with VS, SharpDevelop etc or just N++ and a command line compiler) and run it under Mono, in most cases (though not if you use a WPF front end if I remember right).
Never tried that. Sounds like a blast. Can also use MD for ANSI c++; nice feature is adding package references. Any -dev library package you've installed on your system will show up as available. Add with one click.
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Never tried that. Sounds like a blast. Can also use MD for ANSI c++; nice feature is adding package references. Any -dev library package you've installed on your system will show up as available. Add with one click.
My dad writes some .Net software (graphics and reporting that can work as a component and render to file) and he had a client using it on Mono with only minor problems (the drawing to bitmap was a bit crap in those days on Mono, might be fixed now, so the client had to generate .eps or other text based output formats). I've not tried it myself as I don't paddle in the Linux pool much except for work, where we have a Java project deployed there.
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My dad writes some .Net software (graphics and reporting that can work as a component and render to file) and he had a client using it on Mono with only minor problems (the drawing to bitmap was a bit crap in those days on Mono, might be fixed now, so the client had to generate .eps or other text based output formats). I've not tried it myself as I don't paddle in the Linux pool much except for work, where we have a Java project deployed there.
Nice. We use hybrid systems, so I have to do both.
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why? Here is the story : Today for setting up ns-3,i installed Ubuntu(through wubi) on my dev box ( Win 7 ) and spent all day inside it. Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear. 1 - I needed to install python 2 - I needed to install TCL. 3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 ) 4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it. 5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog! 6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance! 7- Process Explorer Equivalent? No chance! ( i found one but it wanted to download 61MB of software !!!! ) 8 - Gtalk? Yahoo Messenger? Still no chance! OK. I used Empathy, but it did not authenticated me to my yahoo account! :sigh: 9 - Foxit Reader? OK! The only tabbed applications in Linux are web browsers and Terminal window! So, no tabbed pdf viewer you can see there. 10 - I have another monitor attached to my laptop. I needed to assign the dashboard to my own preferred desktop. No Chance! :sigh: And the list goes on .... You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong! why? Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work. Maybe it works for some basic tasks like web surfing or word/image processing, but behind that, you are facing the terrible fact: you have to setup what ever you want by your hand and the most important is learning some scripting language ( python, bash, TCL, etc.). Ubuntu has tried to fix this problem with its own 'Ubuntu Software Center' and it is an awesome effort, but there is still plenty of work to be done. The user should not search the web for dependencies or libraries needed for certain application to get work. After all, i think the whole Linux culture should be changed because people out there, are not developer.
Behzad
What you've just said, is one of the most idiotic things i've ever heard... You don't know what you are talking about. 1. Python, TCL, and g++ are developers tools, where is the "user point of view" there? 2. A tabbed pdf viewer? Most users will be happy with just adobe reader, that the only thing they know, btw. I don't like ubuntu either, so don't think i'm attacking your opinion, i'm just attacking your arguments. Saludos!! ____ichr@mm :wq
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1-5 are the same in windows 6 - Gedit ( and Pimp my Gedit[^] 7- Top is good enough for me 8 - Pidgin If you would like a pre-setup system then you can either save an image or write scripts. It's not that big of a deal.
If it moves, compile it
Actually I agree with the OP with certain things. I am a Java dev, and think that: Ubuntu is not that user-friendly as some Linux users want it to be. Average user does not need to know how to sudo things: Instead, if "he" wanted to install something, a tool similar to Ubuntu Software Center should be used. Something user-friendly, without typing archaic things, with nice graphics and aesthetics. Install procedure: Already said. In Windows if you need to install something regular, you download the "installer", next next finish. In Ubuntu, it is much more complicated. (compiling things? really?) There are some customization issues also: That ugly bar (not talking about Kubuntu here) should be replaced, or replaceable if the user doesn't what it. The Ubuntu's "Control Panel" should be more user-friendly. There should be something equivalent to "Task Manager". I mean, should I open a f****** terminal and execute two or three commands to kill something that has crashed? Which by the way happens more often than expected (unstable set of applications, not entirely Ubuntu developers fault). Nautilus has some issues, not being capable of renaming files when doing two clicks, among others. Not supporting NTFS file system as a possible partition for the installation of the OS is something a bit far ahead from what the average user think about, that is just wrong. Well, now that I discharged myself, I feel a lot better. :doh: I love how Ubuntu is easier to set initially, with the drivers automatically installed (most of the time) rather than in W7 putting the fu**** disk for each device.
asdsda
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Actually I agree with the OP with certain things. I am a Java dev, and think that: Ubuntu is not that user-friendly as some Linux users want it to be. Average user does not need to know how to sudo things: Instead, if "he" wanted to install something, a tool similar to Ubuntu Software Center should be used. Something user-friendly, without typing archaic things, with nice graphics and aesthetics. Install procedure: Already said. In Windows if you need to install something regular, you download the "installer", next next finish. In Ubuntu, it is much more complicated. (compiling things? really?) There are some customization issues also: That ugly bar (not talking about Kubuntu here) should be replaced, or replaceable if the user doesn't what it. The Ubuntu's "Control Panel" should be more user-friendly. There should be something equivalent to "Task Manager". I mean, should I open a f****** terminal and execute two or three commands to kill something that has crashed? Which by the way happens more often than expected (unstable set of applications, not entirely Ubuntu developers fault). Nautilus has some issues, not being capable of renaming files when doing two clicks, among others. Not supporting NTFS file system as a possible partition for the installation of the OS is something a bit far ahead from what the average user think about, that is just wrong. Well, now that I discharged myself, I feel a lot better. :doh: I love how Ubuntu is easier to set initially, with the drivers automatically installed (most of the time) rather than in W7 putting the fu**** disk for each device.
asdsda
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What you've just said, is one of the most idiotic things i've ever heard... You don't know what you are talking about. 1. Python, TCL, and g++ are developers tools, where is the "user point of view" there? 2. A tabbed pdf viewer? Most users will be happy with just adobe reader, that the only thing they know, btw. I don't like ubuntu either, so don't think i'm attacking your opinion, i'm just attacking your arguments. Saludos!! ____ichr@mm :wq
Quote:
1. Python, TCL, and g++ are developers tools, where is the "user point of view" there?
Yeah, exactly, why i should download some developers tools in order to run an application? :doh: You have just highlighted what i'am trying to say.
Behzad
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why? Here is the story : Today for setting up ns-3,i installed Ubuntu(through wubi) on my dev box ( Win 7 ) and spent all day inside it. Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear. 1 - I needed to install python 2 - I needed to install TCL. 3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 ) 4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it. 5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog! 6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance! 7- Process Explorer Equivalent? No chance! ( i found one but it wanted to download 61MB of software !!!! ) 8 - Gtalk? Yahoo Messenger? Still no chance! OK. I used Empathy, but it did not authenticated me to my yahoo account! :sigh: 9 - Foxit Reader? OK! The only tabbed applications in Linux are web browsers and Terminal window! So, no tabbed pdf viewer you can see there. 10 - I have another monitor attached to my laptop. I needed to assign the dashboard to my own preferred desktop. No Chance! :sigh: And the list goes on .... You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong! why? Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work. Maybe it works for some basic tasks like web surfing or word/image processing, but behind that, you are facing the terrible fact: you have to setup what ever you want by your hand and the most important is learning some scripting language ( python, bash, TCL, etc.). Ubuntu has tried to fix this problem with its own 'Ubuntu Software Center' and it is an awesome effort, but there is still plenty of work to be done. The user should not search the web for dependencies or libraries needed for certain application to get work. After all, i think the whole Linux culture should be changed because people out there, are not developer.
Behzad
I guess it all depends on the needs of the user and how the OS supplies their needs. If you still dependent on Windows apps and workflow to work, then you will need it and what comes with it. As a programmer I have been able to replace large amounts of my workflow with Linux, and I still depend on Win for other needs. If you are used to using Visual Studio, you are not going to be happy with Linux. I do not develop native Windows apps - so that is why my workflow is different. I have turned on many people who use their PC's for consumption only, onto Linux Mint or Ubuntu and they are very happy. Not everyone is a programmer. They can not mess it up very easy, especially if they have no use for the command line. I get less help calls, than I do with torched Win installs from the people I know. Every one is different as are their needs.
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So true. Linux people so often shoot themselves in the foot with the attitude problem. However, I think you are dead wrong about Linux being unready or unfriendly. :-O
I beg to differ - there is no way I could expect any of my family members to install software on any Linux platform, on Windows there would be (and is) no issue at all.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
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why? Here is the story : Today for setting up ns-3,i installed Ubuntu(through wubi) on my dev box ( Win 7 ) and spent all day inside it. Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear. 1 - I needed to install python 2 - I needed to install TCL. 3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 ) 4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it. 5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog! 6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance! 7- Process Explorer Equivalent? No chance! ( i found one but it wanted to download 61MB of software !!!! ) 8 - Gtalk? Yahoo Messenger? Still no chance! OK. I used Empathy, but it did not authenticated me to my yahoo account! :sigh: 9 - Foxit Reader? OK! The only tabbed applications in Linux are web browsers and Terminal window! So, no tabbed pdf viewer you can see there. 10 - I have another monitor attached to my laptop. I needed to assign the dashboard to my own preferred desktop. No Chance! :sigh: And the list goes on .... You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong! why? Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work. Maybe it works for some basic tasks like web surfing or word/image processing, but behind that, you are facing the terrible fact: you have to setup what ever you want by your hand and the most important is learning some scripting language ( python, bash, TCL, etc.). Ubuntu has tried to fix this problem with its own 'Ubuntu Software Center' and it is an awesome effort, but there is still plenty of work to be done. The user should not search the web for dependencies or libraries needed for certain application to get work. After all, i think the whole Linux culture should be changed because people out there, are not developer.
Behzad
Yes and its too bad. Linux desktop is great for development, for embedded apps , for servers and any place that is the realm of geeks. but forget any kind of SMB apps. There are no bad-guy marketing weenines forcing the Linux devs to make something useful to a larger part of the population. If there were the penguinistas would all quit and work on a port of vms.
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I beg to differ - there is no way I could expect any of my family members to install software on any Linux platform, on Windows there would be (and is) no issue at all.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
We are talking about Linux, right? And Windows? We're talking about Windows? It's much easier on Ubuntu Linux than Windows. Unless you're using dial-up.
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MonoDevelop. You can load a project built in Visual Studio directly, rebuild it with trifling modifications in most cases, and run it on Linux. Or-build a completely new Gtk interface for the business code.
Yes MonoDevelop great ide has Intelisense and some features that MVS needs to implement
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Quote:
1. Python, TCL, and g++ are developers tools, where is the "user point of view" there?
Yeah, exactly, why i should download some developers tools in order to run an application? :doh: You have just highlighted what i'am trying to say.
Behzad
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I guess it all depends on the needs of the user and how the OS supplies their needs. If you still dependent on Windows apps and workflow to work, then you will need it and what comes with it. As a programmer I have been able to replace large amounts of my workflow with Linux, and I still depend on Win for other needs. If you are used to using Visual Studio, you are not going to be happy with Linux. I do not develop native Windows apps - so that is why my workflow is different. I have turned on many people who use their PC's for consumption only, onto Linux Mint or Ubuntu and they are very happy. Not everyone is a programmer. They can not mess it up very easy, especially if they have no use for the command line. I get less help calls, than I do with torched Win installs from the people I know. Every one is different as are their needs.
Ubuntu is a great OS for the average user. Most people's needs are simple. They want a web browser, email (although many just use a web page to access), store/view/edit photos. A few more need/want a word processor or a spreadsheet. All of these things are available easily and free. Why wouldn't you want to use it? well.. If you NEED any software made by Microsoft. If you NEED any other software not developed for linux. (although many of these can be made to work, it is not guaranteed) Most do not have these needs, they just want something that works. It does work and works quite well. (even on older sub-par machines that tend to choke if running windows) My kids have been using Ubuntu for years. The free software available has exposed them to programs and ideas that I, as a parent, could never afford to offer them in a windows environment. (not to mention that they can do it all themselves and viruses just are not an issue) Lastly, If something isn't available for linux, yes you can make it. (just need the will to learn) If something isn't available on windows, good luck, hope some commercial company sees the need to write and release something on windows. (or you could make it, given even more time, money, headache, heartache, ...) Ready for the desktop? I think it is. It certainly is in a home environment. It could be seen as lacking for the purposes of an office but that is mostly due to most offices using Microsoft products.
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It amazes me how often Linux advocates resort to telling users that the problem is with them rather than the system being unfriendly. Further, the community is in my experience prone to insulting new users - the "if you can't figure this out you're dumb" approach can only help alienate users.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Force yourself to use it for a year, and come back.
Exactly - not ready for a desktop OS yet.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
Rob Grainger wrote:
It amazes me how often Linux advocates resort to telling users that the problem is with them rather than the system being unfriendly.
10 years ago, I was amazed too, but today I'll have to agree with them. I don't see why Linux "needs" to compete with Windows, in order to be called a desktop-OS. Just like airplanes, desktops are not all equal, and some are easier to fly than others. No, it will never be a mainstream-OS. Why? Well, for one because it requires one to know the tool, as opposed to Windows. Does that make it less a desktop-OS?
Rob Grainger wrote:
Further, the community is in my experience prone to insulting new users - the "if you can't figure this out you're dumb" approach can only help alienate users.
New users will have to accept that they're asking random people for help, not a company. Further, those "random people" have the same resources as the noob-linux user; the man-pages and a lot-o'-internet.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]