I think Ubuntu is still not ready for the desktop ( and won't be any soon .... )
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why? Here is the story : Today for setting up ns-3,i installed Ubuntu(through wubi) on my dev box ( Win 7 ) and spent all day inside it. Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear. 1 - I needed to install python 2 - I needed to install TCL. 3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 ) 4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it. 5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog! 6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance! 7- Process Explorer Equivalent? No chance! ( i found one but it wanted to download 61MB of software !!!! ) 8 - Gtalk? Yahoo Messenger? Still no chance! OK. I used Empathy, but it did not authenticated me to my yahoo account! :sigh: 9 - Foxit Reader? OK! The only tabbed applications in Linux are web browsers and Terminal window! So, no tabbed pdf viewer you can see there. 10 - I have another monitor attached to my laptop. I needed to assign the dashboard to my own preferred desktop. No Chance! :sigh: And the list goes on .... You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong! why? Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work. Maybe it works for some basic tasks like web surfing or word/image processing, but behind that, you are facing the terrible fact: you have to setup what ever you want by your hand and the most important is learning some scripting language ( python, bash, TCL, etc.). Ubuntu has tried to fix this problem with its own 'Ubuntu Software Center' and it is an awesome effort, but there is still plenty of work to be done. The user should not search the web for dependencies or libraries needed for certain application to get work. After all, i think the whole Linux culture should be changed because people out there, are not developer.
Behzad
I guess it all depends on the needs of the user and how the OS supplies their needs. If you still dependent on Windows apps and workflow to work, then you will need it and what comes with it. As a programmer I have been able to replace large amounts of my workflow with Linux, and I still depend on Win for other needs. If you are used to using Visual Studio, you are not going to be happy with Linux. I do not develop native Windows apps - so that is why my workflow is different. I have turned on many people who use their PC's for consumption only, onto Linux Mint or Ubuntu and they are very happy. Not everyone is a programmer. They can not mess it up very easy, especially if they have no use for the command line. I get less help calls, than I do with torched Win installs from the people I know. Every one is different as are their needs.
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So true. Linux people so often shoot themselves in the foot with the attitude problem. However, I think you are dead wrong about Linux being unready or unfriendly. :-O
I beg to differ - there is no way I could expect any of my family members to install software on any Linux platform, on Windows there would be (and is) no issue at all.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
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why? Here is the story : Today for setting up ns-3,i installed Ubuntu(through wubi) on my dev box ( Win 7 ) and spent all day inside it. Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear. 1 - I needed to install python 2 - I needed to install TCL. 3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 ) 4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it. 5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog! 6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance! 7- Process Explorer Equivalent? No chance! ( i found one but it wanted to download 61MB of software !!!! ) 8 - Gtalk? Yahoo Messenger? Still no chance! OK. I used Empathy, but it did not authenticated me to my yahoo account! :sigh: 9 - Foxit Reader? OK! The only tabbed applications in Linux are web browsers and Terminal window! So, no tabbed pdf viewer you can see there. 10 - I have another monitor attached to my laptop. I needed to assign the dashboard to my own preferred desktop. No Chance! :sigh: And the list goes on .... You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong! why? Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work. Maybe it works for some basic tasks like web surfing or word/image processing, but behind that, you are facing the terrible fact: you have to setup what ever you want by your hand and the most important is learning some scripting language ( python, bash, TCL, etc.). Ubuntu has tried to fix this problem with its own 'Ubuntu Software Center' and it is an awesome effort, but there is still plenty of work to be done. The user should not search the web for dependencies or libraries needed for certain application to get work. After all, i think the whole Linux culture should be changed because people out there, are not developer.
Behzad
Yes and its too bad. Linux desktop is great for development, for embedded apps , for servers and any place that is the realm of geeks. but forget any kind of SMB apps. There are no bad-guy marketing weenines forcing the Linux devs to make something useful to a larger part of the population. If there were the penguinistas would all quit and work on a port of vms.
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I beg to differ - there is no way I could expect any of my family members to install software on any Linux platform, on Windows there would be (and is) no issue at all.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
We are talking about Linux, right? And Windows? We're talking about Windows? It's much easier on Ubuntu Linux than Windows. Unless you're using dial-up.
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MonoDevelop. You can load a project built in Visual Studio directly, rebuild it with trifling modifications in most cases, and run it on Linux. Or-build a completely new Gtk interface for the business code.
Yes MonoDevelop great ide has Intelisense and some features that MVS needs to implement
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Quote:
1. Python, TCL, and g++ are developers tools, where is the "user point of view" there?
Yeah, exactly, why i should download some developers tools in order to run an application? :doh: You have just highlighted what i'am trying to say.
Behzad
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I guess it all depends on the needs of the user and how the OS supplies their needs. If you still dependent on Windows apps and workflow to work, then you will need it and what comes with it. As a programmer I have been able to replace large amounts of my workflow with Linux, and I still depend on Win for other needs. If you are used to using Visual Studio, you are not going to be happy with Linux. I do not develop native Windows apps - so that is why my workflow is different. I have turned on many people who use their PC's for consumption only, onto Linux Mint or Ubuntu and they are very happy. Not everyone is a programmer. They can not mess it up very easy, especially if they have no use for the command line. I get less help calls, than I do with torched Win installs from the people I know. Every one is different as are their needs.
Ubuntu is a great OS for the average user. Most people's needs are simple. They want a web browser, email (although many just use a web page to access), store/view/edit photos. A few more need/want a word processor or a spreadsheet. All of these things are available easily and free. Why wouldn't you want to use it? well.. If you NEED any software made by Microsoft. If you NEED any other software not developed for linux. (although many of these can be made to work, it is not guaranteed) Most do not have these needs, they just want something that works. It does work and works quite well. (even on older sub-par machines that tend to choke if running windows) My kids have been using Ubuntu for years. The free software available has exposed them to programs and ideas that I, as a parent, could never afford to offer them in a windows environment. (not to mention that they can do it all themselves and viruses just are not an issue) Lastly, If something isn't available for linux, yes you can make it. (just need the will to learn) If something isn't available on windows, good luck, hope some commercial company sees the need to write and release something on windows. (or you could make it, given even more time, money, headache, heartache, ...) Ready for the desktop? I think it is. It certainly is in a home environment. It could be seen as lacking for the purposes of an office but that is mostly due to most offices using Microsoft products.
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It amazes me how often Linux advocates resort to telling users that the problem is with them rather than the system being unfriendly. Further, the community is in my experience prone to insulting new users - the "if you can't figure this out you're dumb" approach can only help alienate users.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Force yourself to use it for a year, and come back.
Exactly - not ready for a desktop OS yet.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
Rob Grainger wrote:
It amazes me how often Linux advocates resort to telling users that the problem is with them rather than the system being unfriendly.
10 years ago, I was amazed too, but today I'll have to agree with them. I don't see why Linux "needs" to compete with Windows, in order to be called a desktop-OS. Just like airplanes, desktops are not all equal, and some are easier to fly than others. No, it will never be a mainstream-OS. Why? Well, for one because it requires one to know the tool, as opposed to Windows. Does that make it less a desktop-OS?
Rob Grainger wrote:
Further, the community is in my experience prone to insulting new users - the "if you can't figure this out you're dumb" approach can only help alienate users.
New users will have to accept that they're asking random people for help, not a company. Further, those "random people" have the same resources as the noob-linux user; the man-pages and a lot-o'-internet.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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For using ns-3 you have to download source code an compile it. for compile you needd g++ and python. for visual result, you need mercurial and qt to be installed. After downloading mercurial and qt4, there is a commnad line instruction to make the visualization application.For running and displaying result in visualizer app. you have to use a command for runnnig it. Actually it is WAF script that compiles a ns-3 ource code ( in C++ ) and then executes it. You see how difficult it is for runnnig an application and check the results? :)
Behzad
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Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance!
At this point, you deserve a "Clippy" to appear to help you. "Hi, it looks like you're trying to type a letter." You HAVE heard about Wine?
Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong!
You're comparing it to an environment that has "the user is dumb and evil" as a philosophy. Force yourself to use it for a year, and come back. Aw, and do yourself a favor, install DSL instead of Ubuntu. You don't need the bloat, it's only there to make Windows-users more comfortable.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
No one's gonna mention Sublime Text? :confused:
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For using ns-3 you have to download source code an compile it. for compile you needd g++ and python. for visual result, you need mercurial and qt to be installed. After downloading mercurial and qt4, there is a commnad line instruction to make the visualization application.For running and displaying result in visualizer app. you have to use a command for runnnig it. Actually it is WAF script that compiles a ns-3 ource code ( in C++ ) and then executes it. You see how difficult it is for runnnig an application and check the results? :)
Behzad
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why? Here is the story : Today for setting up ns-3,i installed Ubuntu(through wubi) on my dev box ( Win 7 ) and spent all day inside it. Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear. 1 - I needed to install python 2 - I needed to install TCL. 3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 ) 4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it. 5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog! 6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance! 7- Process Explorer Equivalent? No chance! ( i found one but it wanted to download 61MB of software !!!! ) 8 - Gtalk? Yahoo Messenger? Still no chance! OK. I used Empathy, but it did not authenticated me to my yahoo account! :sigh: 9 - Foxit Reader? OK! The only tabbed applications in Linux are web browsers and Terminal window! So, no tabbed pdf viewer you can see there. 10 - I have another monitor attached to my laptop. I needed to assign the dashboard to my own preferred desktop. No Chance! :sigh: And the list goes on .... You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong! why? Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work. Maybe it works for some basic tasks like web surfing or word/image processing, but behind that, you are facing the terrible fact: you have to setup what ever you want by your hand and the most important is learning some scripting language ( python, bash, TCL, etc.). Ubuntu has tried to fix this problem with its own 'Ubuntu Software Center' and it is an awesome effort, but there is still plenty of work to be done. The user should not search the web for dependencies or libraries needed for certain application to get work. After all, i think the whole Linux culture should be changed because people out there, are not developer.
Behzad
They have been threatening the year of Linux for 15+ years. Never gonna happen. OTOH EVERY year seems to be the year of the Linux vs. Windows argument! Yawn...
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I beg to differ - there is no way I could expect any of my family members to install software on any Linux platform, on Windows there would be (and is) no issue at all.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
Rob - today is another day. I stand before you a chastened man. Installing Linux programmes is cheap and very, very easy. Finding good programmes is another matter. I tried three different weather apps yesterday - all of them were duff. Want to know the weather in Kuala Lumpur? And ONLY Kuala Lumpur? Neat! In the end I installed an excellent plugin on my Firefox that really does the trick. Sometimes you just can't argue with the big battalions.
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Yep, as I thought, Foxit has a "Desktop Linux" version in that dropdown!
Yes, it has download link, but there is nothing inside that combo for download. To be honest, i searched the web and found it on a file sharing service, but the main purpose of using Foxit ( tabbed PDF viewing ) was not available. Am i missing something? I don't know, So please let me know if there is such an application. After all, my whole point is, in Windows or Mac you do not need to know command line tools and options or need to install library X in order to get your job done. Almost everything is ready. For all above applications, all you need is just some clicks ( Next -> Next -> Finish ). I needed ns-3 for an academic purpose and i had no time learning TCL, python, etc.
Behzad
Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
After all, my whole point is, in Windows or Mac you do not need to know command line tools and options or need to install library X in order to get your job done.
That I do not agree with. Nearly all apps you can install through the application managers. And if you do so you'll never need to use any CLI as they'd automatically also download needed libs if those haven't already been installed. In Windows, such does not happen. If the app didn't include the lib inside of its install EXE/MSI file that lib would not be automatically installed. Rather you might find that an error box is displayed stating you need some lib from somewhere you need to download manually and install before you can install this. Sometimes (if the programmer making the MSI) was thinking about the user, he'd add a link to the download in such case. I do agree that in most cases an MSI would include all its needed libs, but that is wasted space in nearly all instances - just think how many games include the entire DirectX libs in their CD/DVD/download? You only need install it once don't you? Not every single time a new app wants to use it? That's why I like the Linux method better. The app is just the app itself. No ancillaries and dependencies. The CLI (and the GUI managers) read the app's dependencies, checking if those are already installed, and then include those which aren't for download when you install the app. IMO this makes for the least amount of wasted install bandwidth.
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Quote:
Yep, as I thought, Foxit has a "Desktop Linux" version in that dropdown!
Yes, it has download link, but there is nothing inside that combo for download. To be honest, i searched the web and found it on a file sharing service, but the main purpose of using Foxit ( tabbed PDF viewing ) was not available. Am i missing something? I don't know, So please let me know if there is such an application. After all, my whole point is, in Windows or Mac you do not need to know command line tools and options or need to install library X in order to get your job done. Almost everything is ready. For all above applications, all you need is just some clicks ( Next -> Next -> Finish ). I needed ns-3 for an academic purpose and i had no time learning TCL, python, etc.
Behzad
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why? Here is the story : Today for setting up ns-3,i installed Ubuntu(through wubi) on my dev box ( Win 7 ) and spent all day inside it. Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear. 1 - I needed to install python 2 - I needed to install TCL. 3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 ) 4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it. 5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog! 6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance! 7- Process Explorer Equivalent? No chance! ( i found one but it wanted to download 61MB of software !!!! ) 8 - Gtalk? Yahoo Messenger? Still no chance! OK. I used Empathy, but it did not authenticated me to my yahoo account! :sigh: 9 - Foxit Reader? OK! The only tabbed applications in Linux are web browsers and Terminal window! So, no tabbed pdf viewer you can see there. 10 - I have another monitor attached to my laptop. I needed to assign the dashboard to my own preferred desktop. No Chance! :sigh: And the list goes on .... You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong! why? Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work. Maybe it works for some basic tasks like web surfing or word/image processing, but behind that, you are facing the terrible fact: you have to setup what ever you want by your hand and the most important is learning some scripting language ( python, bash, TCL, etc.). Ubuntu has tried to fix this problem with its own 'Ubuntu Software Center' and it is an awesome effort, but there is still plenty of work to be done. The user should not search the web for dependencies or libraries needed for certain application to get work. After all, i think the whole Linux culture should be changed because people out there, are not developer.
Behzad
Quote:
You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong!
You are absolutely right. If any linux distro wanted to be common it should be designed user friendly, easy to install with no other dependancy issues, hidden package management, no unimportant messaging. Each application should have some commonality for user to access. At least packages should be chosen to do so... Some flexibility and configurability can be sacrificed for this. Linux developpers may look into other more user friendly OS'es ie,Win7, MacOS, MacOS X etc.. Edit I forgot The language support.. It should support many languages spoken arroud the world... NOT the UI but also applications..
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why? Here is the story : Today for setting up ns-3,i installed Ubuntu(through wubi) on my dev box ( Win 7 ) and spent all day inside it. Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear. 1 - I needed to install python 2 - I needed to install TCL. 3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 ) 4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it. 5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog! 6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance! 7- Process Explorer Equivalent? No chance! ( i found one but it wanted to download 61MB of software !!!! ) 8 - Gtalk? Yahoo Messenger? Still no chance! OK. I used Empathy, but it did not authenticated me to my yahoo account! :sigh: 9 - Foxit Reader? OK! The only tabbed applications in Linux are web browsers and Terminal window! So, no tabbed pdf viewer you can see there. 10 - I have another monitor attached to my laptop. I needed to assign the dashboard to my own preferred desktop. No Chance! :sigh: And the list goes on .... You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong! why? Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work. Maybe it works for some basic tasks like web surfing or word/image processing, but behind that, you are facing the terrible fact: you have to setup what ever you want by your hand and the most important is learning some scripting language ( python, bash, TCL, etc.). Ubuntu has tried to fix this problem with its own 'Ubuntu Software Center' and it is an awesome effort, but there is still plenty of work to be done. The user should not search the web for dependencies or libraries needed for certain application to get work. After all, i think the whole Linux culture should be changed because people out there, are not developer.
Behzad
I'm a bit confused. Have you tried the GUI based package installers / managers? It sounds as if you only used CLI. While most Linux guru's tend to advise using the CLI it's not a prerequisite - it's just that they find it more powerful / robust / easy / efficient. IMO most (if not all) the stuff a lay user would need on these (more GUI oriented) Linuxes can be done without ever opening a console. All the install managers I've seen has a very good search box to list available apps by simply typing in a portion of their name / description, and most list using a structured folder grouping for even easier search. If you can't find it in that, then it's usually a case of you needing to add another repo to the search list, which can be done through CLI, but (again) all the managers have such available through a settings dialog instead of requiring you to open a console. It's true that nothing's perfect in any system (Win/Mac/Linux/BSD/Unix/etc.etc.etc.) I've always found some "yes-but" situation in all that I've ever used. But in Linux the failure to install (I've found, or difficulty to install) is always a situation of downloading some RPM/DEB/other file manually and trying to install that. You know ... like you do for Windows? But if you install direct from a repo through the manager, such issues are usually non-existent as the repo's tend to have tried-and-tested packages for your particular Linux. E.g. one program I needed in Linux was simply not installing properly. BricsCAD was not working smoothly with Fedora 64bit's libraries, and I then needed to go fiddle with lots of CLI. See the forum thread about that: http://www.bricsys.com/common/support/forumthread.jsp?id=18407[^] On the other hand, ever tried getting QuickLisp working properly through any Lisp interpreter/compiler (except Clozure) on Windows - and then to also integrate its REPL into your editor? It becomes one heck of a pain if you don't start off with something like LispBox. On Linux it's a perfect breeze to install any one of a number of Lisps and get it working correctly with your editor of choice - usually nothing more than a check-box to click in the package managers.
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It amazes me how often Linux advocates resort to telling users that the problem is with them rather than the system being unfriendly. Further, the community is in my experience prone to insulting new users - the "if you can't figure this out you're dumb" approach can only help alienate users.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Force yourself to use it for a year, and come back.
Exactly - not ready for a desktop OS yet.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
Seriously?? Linux is not Windows. You have been using Windows for years. You have already gone through all the pain of learning the quirks and the gotchas. Hence the reason, try it for a year and then complain. Because all you are doing right now is complaining that Linux isn't Windows ...
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why? Here is the story : Today for setting up ns-3,i installed Ubuntu(through wubi) on my dev box ( Win 7 ) and spent all day inside it. Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear. 1 - I needed to install python 2 - I needed to install TCL. 3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 ) 4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it. 5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog! 6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance! 7- Process Explorer Equivalent? No chance! ( i found one but it wanted to download 61MB of software !!!! ) 8 - Gtalk? Yahoo Messenger? Still no chance! OK. I used Empathy, but it did not authenticated me to my yahoo account! :sigh: 9 - Foxit Reader? OK! The only tabbed applications in Linux are web browsers and Terminal window! So, no tabbed pdf viewer you can see there. 10 - I have another monitor attached to my laptop. I needed to assign the dashboard to my own preferred desktop. No Chance! :sigh: And the list goes on .... You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong! why? Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work. Maybe it works for some basic tasks like web surfing or word/image processing, but behind that, you are facing the terrible fact: you have to setup what ever you want by your hand and the most important is learning some scripting language ( python, bash, TCL, etc.). Ubuntu has tried to fix this problem with its own 'Ubuntu Software Center' and it is an awesome effort, but there is still plenty of work to be done. The user should not search the web for dependencies or libraries needed for certain application to get work. After all, i think the whole Linux culture should be changed because people out there, are not developer.
Behzad
Well, I would agree with you on some things, I disagree on Notepadd++. I use it all the time on Linux. Most distros are coming with WINE pre-installed - not that its tough to install. All you need to do is download Notepad++ (Windows version) and open it up and install it, just as you would on Windows. It is not a big deal. It defaults are much the same as on Windows. My beef with Ubuntu came in 11.04 when they had their version of a "Metro" desktop - Unity bites it! They still have problems supporting Broadcom wireless and, I just put it on a jump drive (16GB) and can't get a Linksys adapter to connect (even though NDIS installed the .inf file). Fortunately, I have a Netgear adapter and it connects just fine, but the internal Broadcom, fuhgedaboutit.