I think Ubuntu is still not ready for the desktop ( and won't be any soon .... )
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"Use Wine" is a cop-out and shows that there really are missing planks in Linux. You wouldn't expect a Windows user to accept 'just start a Linux VM' when they ask where some piece of software is.
BobJanova wrote:
You wouldn't expect a Windows user to accept 'just start a Linux VM' when they ask where some piece of software is.
If you insist on comparing them as equals, yes - but they're definitely not. Notepad++ isn't part of the OS, and if he wants to run a foreign app, well that's possible. The most common answer to "xxx is not here" is write it.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Then change the look at feel. You can, for example, try Cairo-Dock or Cinnamon. You can even try the Gnome Fallback version. But if you want it to have a Microsofty-like Windows appearance, you can even try "Kubuntu"
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Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance!
At this point, you deserve a "Clippy" to appear to help you. "Hi, it looks like you're trying to type a letter." You HAVE heard about Wine?
Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong!
You're comparing it to an environment that has "the user is dumb and evil" as a philosophy. Force yourself to use it for a year, and come back. Aw, and do yourself a favor, install DSL instead of Ubuntu. You don't need the bloat, it's only there to make Windows-users more comfortable.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Also, the UI of Ubuntu is also not to my taste. Those windows, especially the caption and border, always make me feel thick and heavy. Am I the only one who thinks so?
Oh dear. It's not the same. Me want Mickey Soft. But fwee!
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"Use Wine" is a cop-out and shows that there really are missing planks in Linux. You wouldn't expect a Windows user to accept 'just start a Linux VM' when they ask where some piece of software is.
Alright. Use gedit. It's built in, is tabbable, and does practically everything notepad++ does. Also it doesn't screw up line endings, so when you edit scripts, they'll *still* work.
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why? Here is the story : Today for setting up ns-3,i installed Ubuntu(through wubi) on my dev box ( Win 7 ) and spent all day inside it. Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear. 1 - I needed to install python 2 - I needed to install TCL. 3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 ) 4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it. 5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog! 6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance! 7- Process Explorer Equivalent? No chance! ( i found one but it wanted to download 61MB of software !!!! ) 8 - Gtalk? Yahoo Messenger? Still no chance! OK. I used Empathy, but it did not authenticated me to my yahoo account! :sigh: 9 - Foxit Reader? OK! The only tabbed applications in Linux are web browsers and Terminal window! So, no tabbed pdf viewer you can see there. 10 - I have another monitor attached to my laptop. I needed to assign the dashboard to my own preferred desktop. No Chance! :sigh: And the list goes on .... You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong! why? Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work. Maybe it works for some basic tasks like web surfing or word/image processing, but behind that, you are facing the terrible fact: you have to setup what ever you want by your hand and the most important is learning some scripting language ( python, bash, TCL, etc.). Ubuntu has tried to fix this problem with its own 'Ubuntu Software Center' and it is an awesome effort, but there is still plenty of work to be done. The user should not search the web for dependencies or libraries needed for certain application to get work. After all, i think the whole Linux culture should be changed because people out there, are not developer.
Behzad
Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear.
1 - I needed to install python
2 - I needed to install TCL.
3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 )
4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it.
5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog!And you get those direct with windows? Do you mean an OEM pre-installed bloatware PC you just plug in and go? Even those I've never seen with such a developer-specific set of all interpreters possible arrangement.
Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance!
And this is a "standard" Windows program available direct from the install DVD? Or did you inadvertently add the ++ to the end? If you don't like sublime, then try Geany - it's built using the same Scintilla libraries as Notepad++ is. Some even say it's better than N++.
Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
9 - Foxit Reader?
Uhmmm ... now let me see here ... http://www.foxitsoftware.com/downloads/ Yep, as I thought, Foxit has a "Desktop Linux" version in that dropdown!
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I tend to agree . Ubuntu is not suitable for my mother . Also the number of devs I see using macs tends to make me assume that there is a reason they dont use UBUNTU as their OS. I am using it right now , and I find it as reliable as windows 95 . Now I daresay that there is a config I can find that will help , and as a technical guy I enjoy that challenge , but mass market ? Not yet . BUT its getting there . And for server OS I think Linux is perfect , no worrying about licensing issues , easy command line installs , superb online community help with honest opinion . Regards Torrance
My mum is 87. She uses Ubuntu 12.04. She finds the interface far easier to use than microcrap, and she doesn't miss the useless, confusing popups every time she tries to do things, or waiting for all the s**t to finish hijacking the network connection when she switches on, or the aggressive marketing banners of 'free' software, or the rubbish about not switching off because of updates when she wants to finish and go and make a cup of tea, or the s**t you have to pay for to protect the system from drive-by's and viruses... I mean really? You pay good money for this experience?
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The Ubuntu install process is a breeze. Yes you have to know what the dependencies are, but it isnt hard to find out. But at least it works properly, install AND uninstall. You are right to a certain extent, it is an engineers system, but when you have a problem with windows the average user is totally lost, so there isnt much difference there. If you are suggesting some kind of automated dependency tracker is implemented in Ubuntu I would agree with you, it would make it even better. So why not write one yourself? :)
============================== Nothing to say.
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why? Here is the story : Today for setting up ns-3,i installed Ubuntu(through wubi) on my dev box ( Win 7 ) and spent all day inside it. Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear. 1 - I needed to install python 2 - I needed to install TCL. 3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 ) 4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it. 5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog! 6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance! 7- Process Explorer Equivalent? No chance! ( i found one but it wanted to download 61MB of software !!!! ) 8 - Gtalk? Yahoo Messenger? Still no chance! OK. I used Empathy, but it did not authenticated me to my yahoo account! :sigh: 9 - Foxit Reader? OK! The only tabbed applications in Linux are web browsers and Terminal window! So, no tabbed pdf viewer you can see there. 10 - I have another monitor attached to my laptop. I needed to assign the dashboard to my own preferred desktop. No Chance! :sigh: And the list goes on .... You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong! why? Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work. Maybe it works for some basic tasks like web surfing or word/image processing, but behind that, you are facing the terrible fact: you have to setup what ever you want by your hand and the most important is learning some scripting language ( python, bash, TCL, etc.). Ubuntu has tried to fix this problem with its own 'Ubuntu Software Center' and it is an awesome effort, but there is still plenty of work to be done. The user should not search the web for dependencies or libraries needed for certain application to get work. After all, i think the whole Linux culture should be changed because people out there, are not developer.
Behzad
Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong!
why?
Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work.Here I'm with you half-way. Most Linuxes are not designed (or even intended) for the average user. But Ubuntu is definately one of those whose philosophy leans more to the: "User is dumb and should be lead by the hand" idea than the CLI-centric distros. In my experience Ubuntu & Fedora is nearly equal to Windows' "ease of use" for a lay-user. But "when things go wrong" it's actually surpassing the "registry hacks you need to invoke with a cauldron boiling some efluence" to try and "fix" windows without an entire system reformat. And actually if you download some program to install on Windows, you have either a 5GB file to get or you need to download DotNet 4.5 (or WTF else). So 61MB scares you does it? For libraries which would probably be used by some of the other progs you're installing? Really? You must LOVE updating/upgrading your DotNet packages then!
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Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear.
1 - I needed to install python
2 - I needed to install TCL.
3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 )
4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it.
5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog!And you get those direct with windows? Do you mean an OEM pre-installed bloatware PC you just plug in and go? Even those I've never seen with such a developer-specific set of all interpreters possible arrangement.
Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance!
And this is a "standard" Windows program available direct from the install DVD? Or did you inadvertently add the ++ to the end? If you don't like sublime, then try Geany - it's built using the same Scintilla libraries as Notepad++ is. Some even say it's better than N++.
Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
9 - Foxit Reader?
Uhmmm ... now let me see here ... http://www.foxitsoftware.com/downloads/ Yep, as I thought, Foxit has a "Desktop Linux" version in that dropdown!
Quote:
Yep, as I thought, Foxit has a "Desktop Linux" version in that dropdown!
Yes, it has download link, but there is nothing inside that combo for download. To be honest, i searched the web and found it on a file sharing service, but the main purpose of using Foxit ( tabbed PDF viewing ) was not available. Am i missing something? I don't know, So please let me know if there is such an application. After all, my whole point is, in Windows or Mac you do not need to know command line tools and options or need to install library X in order to get your job done. Almost everything is ready. For all above applications, all you need is just some clicks ( Next -> Next -> Finish ). I needed ns-3 for an academic purpose and i had no time learning TCL, python, etc.
Behzad
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Alright. Use gedit. It's built in, is tabbable, and does practically everything notepad++ does. Also it doesn't screw up line endings, so when you edit scripts, they'll *still* work.
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Yeah gedit is decent. That's what I generally use when I'm in a Linux environment. Not sure what you're taking a pop at there but Notepad++ preserves line endings as well.
Notepad++? Yeah, supposed to preserve line endings too. Gedit will actually 'clean' a file with Windows lines though, whereas ++ will preserve whatever you've got in there.
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Oh dear. It's not the same. Me want Mickey Soft. But fwee!
Once you learn the basics of Ubuntu and learn how to use the basic sudo and bash commands you will quickly learn to love Ubuntu sure it lacks support for many programs but this us coffee project and we are developers if your preferred language is c sharp then there is a great ide which honestly can't remember the name of it at the moment but is a great way for us to program .net apps within Ubuntu no wine needed
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Notepad++? Yeah, supposed to preserve line endings too. Gedit will actually 'clean' a file with Windows lines though, whereas ++ will preserve whatever you've got in there.
So it won't preserve them, then? That's no better than a Windows platform editor 'cleaning' Linux line endings and helpfully adding the \r for you. N++ will let you re-encode a file if you actually want that, but it doesn't change a file unless you ask it to.
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Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance!
At this point, you deserve a "Clippy" to appear to help you. "Hi, it looks like you're trying to type a letter." You HAVE heard about Wine?
Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong!
You're comparing it to an environment that has "the user is dumb and evil" as a philosophy. Force yourself to use it for a year, and come back. Aw, and do yourself a favor, install DSL instead of Ubuntu. You don't need the bloat, it's only there to make Windows-users more comfortable.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
It amazes me how often Linux advocates resort to telling users that the problem is with them rather than the system being unfriendly. Further, the community is in my experience prone to insulting new users - the "if you can't figure this out you're dumb" approach can only help alienate users.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Force yourself to use it for a year, and come back.
Exactly - not ready for a desktop OS yet.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
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Once you learn the basics of Ubuntu and learn how to use the basic sudo and bash commands you will quickly learn to love Ubuntu sure it lacks support for many programs but this us coffee project and we are developers if your preferred language is c sharp then there is a great ide which honestly can't remember the name of it at the moment but is a great way for us to program .net apps within Ubuntu no wine needed
MonoDevelop. You can load a project built in Visual Studio directly, rebuild it with trifling modifications in most cases, and run it on Linux. Or-build a completely new Gtk interface for the business code.
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It amazes me how often Linux advocates resort to telling users that the problem is with them rather than the system being unfriendly. Further, the community is in my experience prone to insulting new users - the "if you can't figure this out you're dumb" approach can only help alienate users.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Force yourself to use it for a year, and come back.
Exactly - not ready for a desktop OS yet.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
So true. Linux people so often shoot themselves in the foot with the attitude problem. However, I think you are dead wrong about Linux being unready or unfriendly. :-O
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So it won't preserve them, then? That's no better than a Windows platform editor 'cleaning' Linux line endings and helpfully adding the \r for you. N++ will let you re-encode a file if you actually want that, but it doesn't change a file unless you ask it to.
It's a lot better actually; we don't have to write a bash script on Linux for use on windows, so standardised Unix lines are just fine. I guess if you wanted to transfer Python or Ruby scripts, Windows might nag you, but they would run. In short, Windows line endings will disable Linux scripts, but not vice versa, which is probably why Gedit doesn't default to leaving things alone.
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It's a lot better actually; we don't have to write a bash script on Linux for use on windows, so standardised Unix lines are just fine. I guess if you wanted to transfer Python or Ruby scripts, Windows might nag you, but they would run. In short, Windows line endings will disable Linux scripts, but not vice versa, which is probably why Gedit doesn't default to leaving things alone.
Incidentally, I'm not trying to diss ++. It's a good programme. For Windows.
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why? Here is the story : Today for setting up ns-3,i installed Ubuntu(through wubi) on my dev box ( Win 7 ) and spent all day inside it. Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear. 1 - I needed to install python 2 - I needed to install TCL. 3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 ) 4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it. 5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog! 6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance! 7- Process Explorer Equivalent? No chance! ( i found one but it wanted to download 61MB of software !!!! ) 8 - Gtalk? Yahoo Messenger? Still no chance! OK. I used Empathy, but it did not authenticated me to my yahoo account! :sigh: 9 - Foxit Reader? OK! The only tabbed applications in Linux are web browsers and Terminal window! So, no tabbed pdf viewer you can see there. 10 - I have another monitor attached to my laptop. I needed to assign the dashboard to my own preferred desktop. No Chance! :sigh: And the list goes on .... You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong! why? Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work. Maybe it works for some basic tasks like web surfing or word/image processing, but behind that, you are facing the terrible fact: you have to setup what ever you want by your hand and the most important is learning some scripting language ( python, bash, TCL, etc.). Ubuntu has tried to fix this problem with its own 'Ubuntu Software Center' and it is an awesome effort, but there is still plenty of work to be done. The user should not search the web for dependencies or libraries needed for certain application to get work. After all, i think the whole Linux culture should be changed because people out there, are not developer.
Behzad