Question: Language Barrier
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I don't have a problem with the language barrier. I've got a problem with 2 kinds of people. 1) The people that bash on you when you don't give them the answer they want, usually it's they want their code written for them. 2) The cultural differences where they come here, ask a question, and then bash you for giving an answer because, in their culture apparently, it's an insult to tell them they're wrong about something. I see this coming more from the Middle East than anywhere else.
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Dave KreskowiakDave Kreskowiak wrote:
and then bash you for giving an answer because, in their culture apparently, it's an insult to tell them they're wrong about something. I see this coming more from the Middle East than anywhere else.
Having seen this quite a bit I can't recall any ethnic bias in terms of that sort of response.
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It's ignorant to ask a question about the morality of debating people who are at an obvious disadvantage? It's a serious question: Mutual respect demands that I debate them, they're people, they entered the debate willingly, etc,. However, another part of me feels kind of bad about it, because, they don't really understand the conversation. Thus, I sought outside opinions on the matter to gain perspective.
Thank you for continuing to prove my point. My share of this side conversation has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with you and EVERYTHING to do with taking a humorous shot at Mick's humorous shot (or, since he's an Aussie I guess it would be "humourous shot"). Again, take a breath. Take life, and yourself, less seriously.
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
and then bash you for giving an answer because, in their culture apparently, it's an insult to tell them they're wrong about something. I see this coming more from the Middle East than anywhere else.
Having seen this quite a bit I can't recall any ethnic bias in terms of that sort of response.
I only remember a few really nasty responses I got out of about a couple dozen, and those were from Saudi Arabia, Iran and Jordan.
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Dave Kreskowiak -
Not a single person in this topic has shown me up. Please, point out these post, I'd love to see them. (I'm seriously, confused, I have NO CLUE, what you're on about.)
Joe_Dert wrote:
I'm seriously, confused, I have NO CLUE, what you're on about
If you spoke English you'd know the underlined comma was superfluous. BTW, superfluous means it wasn't needed and failed to add anything to the message. I said you have been shown up and it is true. Almost without fail, your diatribe has been ridiculed and belittled. You missed PB's[^] humorous use of Txtspk that showed his opinion of your age and IQ; both in the low teens. Then syou miss the humo(u)r[^] of a response to you reply. Next up you try and convince MM to play far. FFS, MM doesn't play far with his dick so you stand no chance. There are rules and there are conventions and we all, to greater or lesser extents, obey them. You crossed the one line that will get anyone flamed - don't troll. You might think you're not trolling, but offending non-Americans is trolling. This site is NOT American, it flies it's seal clubbing, 'roo loving, beer swilling credentials from the roof tops. We all work in English, not US-Can't Spell English or the Queen's Bally English but good International English. I've put down my gin for this, so read it, understand it and FFS stop being a dork!
Reality is an illusion caused by a lack of alcohol
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You're only hearing what you want to hear.
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How do you suggest these people with limited English language skill will improve when you don't want them talking.
Practice, but, hear me, listen well, and understand. I might want to juggle chainsaws for living, but, I'm going to work up to that. (Maybe start with some tennis balls or something.) In the same fashion, it would be wise to not get yourself into debates, which are the highest form of language based human interactions until you have the language skills to be doing so. (There are debate clubs, presidential debates, scientific debates, but, a debate between two people who can't understand each other, is just, ridiculous.) That's all I was saying. Look, it's not always that simple, you see, they usually act normally at first, and it's fine, but then, they seem to ALWAYS take some innocent comment, that NO American would even care about as the f*cking starting pistol for Armageddon. It's jarring, barely passable English, starts rapidly declining, as they get angrier, and angrier. (So, it's very hard to tell, when to pull out, are they just mad, or unable to understand the language properly?) It's not always as simple as people make it sound, these are dynamic human beings, not static code, you can't predict them, or always tell what's really happening.
Joe_Dert wrote:
but then, they seem to ALWAYS take some innocent comment, that NO American would even care about as the f*cking starting pistol for Armageddon.
That statement seems to suggest that in fact you recognize that your comment, regardless of how others might choose to take it, is less that ideal for the given conversation. And then from that comment, your comment, things go down hill. That would certainly seem to suggest to me a possible cause of the problem. Although I note again I still haven't seen an example.
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Joe_Dert wrote:
He's abrasive, he fails to read\understand topics, and makes ridiculous suggestions that generally have nothing to do with any sort of actual solution.
Presuming all that is true - what does any of that have to do with a lack of language comprehension?
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Presuming all that is true - what does any of that have to do with a lack of language comprehension?
Well, I don't know, perhaps the part where he either FAILED to READ the topic, or, FAILED to UNDERSTAND it... (I'm guessing he failed to understand it, based on his comments.) For example: I stated that I wrote a piece of code on the spot. (Here's a quick transcript.)
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I'm trying to figure out how to do "X" task. // Rephrased, obviously. The best I can figure, is something like. // CODE EXAMPLE - HERE (Snipped for brevity.) (I typed this up here, I don't even know if that would compile, so, don't mind that.)
His response contained the following.
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I don't see a point in the code you show. If you found it on the Web, it does not mean it makes a lot of sense. I think you can take it seriously and simply write all the wrapper code you need by yourself.
So, I'm a code thief, and I need to take my programming more seriously and write my own code.... GTFO
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I cannot see how could we help as you did not explain your ultimate goals.
Now, this is my favorite part. (The topic title, and the topic itself both clearly explained my goal.) I was trying to create a C# style static using C++\CLI, it needed to be consumed by C#, and LOOK just like a normal C# static class in intellisense, etc,. (Lacking the knowledge of how to properly accomplish the task, and being unable to find any clues online, I asked, which led to this conversation.)
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Presuming all that is true - what does any of that have to do with a lack of language comprehension?
Well, I don't know, perhaps the part where he either FAILED to READ the topic, or, FAILED to UNDERSTAND it... (I'm guessing he failed to understand it, based on his comments.) For example: I stated that I wrote a piece of code on the spot. (Here's a quick transcript.)
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I'm trying to figure out how to do "X" task. // Rephrased, obviously. The best I can figure, is something like. // CODE EXAMPLE - HERE (Snipped for brevity.) (I typed this up here, I don't even know if that would compile, so, don't mind that.)
His response contained the following.
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I don't see a point in the code you show. If you found it on the Web, it does not mean it makes a lot of sense. I think you can take it seriously and simply write all the wrapper code you need by yourself.
So, I'm a code thief, and I need to take my programming more seriously and write my own code.... GTFO
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I cannot see how could we help as you did not explain your ultimate goals.
Now, this is my favorite part. (The topic title, and the topic itself both clearly explained my goal.) I was trying to create a C# style static using C++\CLI, it needed to be consumed by C#, and LOOK just like a normal C# static class in intellisense, etc,. (Lacking the knowledge of how to properly accomplish the task, and being unable to find any clues online, I asked, which led to this conversation.)
Joe_Dert wrote:
Well, I don't know, perhaps the part where he either FAILED to READ the topic, or, FAILED to UNDERSTAND it
I read your entire response. I see nothing that suggests a language problem. Failure to understand your response doesn't mean that the person would understand it if their language comprehension was better. Nor does one case (individual) make a rule.
Joe_Dert wrote:
So, I'm a code thief, and I need to take my programming more seriously and write my own code....
Neither the individuals statement nor your response has anything to do with comprehension.
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One of the biggest issues I've had on this site, and others, is with people who don't natively speak English. Some of them are very nice, and cool people. However, some of them, like to argue with you, despite barely being able to understand you. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't mind foreigners, however, I do mind the people in question, the ones who will blindly attack me, when in reality, it's their own fault. To clarify, I wouldn't go to a Japanese forum, and argue with people in Japanese, because, I don't properly understand the language, and a debate of any kind requires understanding. (As do conversations in general.) Do, you see where I'm coming from? I just don't understand the logic of these people, are they just stupid, international trolls, I don't know. ? I would almost suggest they stick to forums that cater to their own language, at least until they get a better grip on the English language, and can have rational conversations. And okay, let's say they do come to an English speaking forum, and haven't quite mastered the language, well, perhaps they should avoid debates until they can understand what's going on a bit better. Am I wrong here? Should I be more patient? Should I ignore them when they act up? I've been arguing with them, but it seems to go nowhere, but, if you do nothing, then, they're not going to learn, or stop. (Can I report this behavior?) What do you guys think?
I think if you're arguing with them, then you are part of the problem. Perhaps you could take the time to help them understand that what you said was not meant to be offensive, and then you can be a valid contributor to the site, or you can be offended by the vast majority of visitors to the site. I prefer to choose the route of knowing that their understanding of English is better than my understanding of their language.
I was brought up to respect my elders. I don't respect many people nowadays.
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier -
Joe_Dert wrote:
but then, they seem to ALWAYS take some innocent comment, that NO American would even care about as the f*cking starting pistol for Armageddon.
That statement seems to suggest that in fact you recognize that your comment, regardless of how others might choose to take it, is less that ideal for the given conversation. And then from that comment, your comment, things go down hill. That would certainly seem to suggest to me a possible cause of the problem. Although I note again I still haven't seen an example.
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I think if you're arguing with them, then you are part of the problem. Perhaps you could take the time to help them understand that what you said was not meant to be offensive, and then you can be a valid contributor to the site, or you can be offended by the vast majority of visitors to the site. I prefer to choose the route of knowing that their understanding of English is better than my understanding of their language.
I was brought up to respect my elders. I don't respect many people nowadays.
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easierQuote:
I think if you're arguing with them, then you are part of the problem.
No. You know full and well, that many programming topics come loaded for debate, and EVERYONE here does so to some extent or another.
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Perhaps you could take the time to help them understand that what you said was not meant to be offensive, and then you can be a valid contributor to the site, or you can be offended by the vast majority of visitors to the site.
Sure, but, perhaps they could understand that their knowledge of the English language is very basic, and maybe, just maybe, realize that they shouldn't go jumping to conclusions and attacking people. They KNOW that they're just learning the language, and they SHOULD KNOW that this can lead to misunderstandings, so, it's THEIR responsibility to seek clarification when the need arises.
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I think if you're arguing with them, then you are part of the problem.
No. You know full and well, that many programming topics come loaded for debate, and EVERYONE here does so to some extent or another.
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Perhaps you could take the time to help them understand that what you said was not meant to be offensive, and then you can be a valid contributor to the site, or you can be offended by the vast majority of visitors to the site.
Sure, but, perhaps they could understand that their knowledge of the English language is very basic, and maybe, just maybe, realize that they shouldn't go jumping to conclusions and attacking people. They KNOW that they're just learning the language, and they SHOULD KNOW that this can lead to misunderstandings, so, it's THEIR responsibility to seek clarification when the need arises.
Of course things are loaded for debate. However, looking at that particular thread of comments, the person who comes across as the biggest jerk is you. I know you don't agree with this, but the arrogance that dripped off that thread was hilarious - mind you, I am seriously contemplating deleting your comments because there is no place on a site like this for the type of language and personal attacks you launched. You may be an elite hacker, but you have zero social skills, so the problem is definitely at your end of the keyboard.
I was brought up to respect my elders. I don't respect many people nowadays.
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier -
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I think if you're arguing with them, then you are part of the problem.
No. You know full and well, that many programming topics come loaded for debate, and EVERYONE here does so to some extent or another.
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Perhaps you could take the time to help them understand that what you said was not meant to be offensive, and then you can be a valid contributor to the site, or you can be offended by the vast majority of visitors to the site.
Sure, but, perhaps they could understand that their knowledge of the English language is very basic, and maybe, just maybe, realize that they shouldn't go jumping to conclusions and attacking people. They KNOW that they're just learning the language, and they SHOULD KNOW that this can lead to misunderstandings, so, it's THEIR responsibility to seek clarification when the need arises.
Your bridge. Go back to it.
Reality is an illusion caused by a lack of alcohol
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Seriously? How high do I need to turn up my sarcasm before it register in that tiny little brain of yours?
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What are you? 10?
That was the joke stupid, I was making fun of you... (I even explained that I was about to be REALLY sarcastic.) But, you raise a good question, Are you 10, because that's about the only people who would find his joke funny. (I think you've been in the office, for WAY too long, go outside buddy, maybe watch some comedies, and fix that awful sense of humor of yours.)
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That's the best you got? Really? You won't last long here.
My lord, you're stupid beyond belief. (That was a lame play, on the original joke, which was also lame, again, I was making fun of you.)
Nice try at turning it around but can't work for the reasons that a) what you believe passed as sarcastic humor didn't come close (writing a sentence in the style of a child doesn't count) and b) you didn't get any of it!!! Sad to say, the only stupid around here, right now, is you. Why, there is even another thread taking the piss out of you but I don't suppose that's registered with you.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. Those who seek perfection will only find imperfection nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me me, in pictures
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Joe_Dert wrote:
Well, I don't know, perhaps the part where he either FAILED to READ the topic, or, FAILED to UNDERSTAND it
I read your entire response. I see nothing that suggests a language problem. Failure to understand your response doesn't mean that the person would understand it if their language comprehension was better. Nor does one case (individual) make a rule.
Joe_Dert wrote:
So, I'm a code thief, and I need to take my programming more seriously and write my own code....
Neither the individuals statement nor your response has anything to do with comprehension.
No fluent English speaker would accuse you of stealing code, after you straight up, and directly explained that you wrote the f*cking code. (Unless they had VERY good reasons to be doing so, or were trolls, etc,.) Anyways, you shouldn't be discussing anyone's language comprehension skills, as you seem to have issues with it yourself....
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Of course things are loaded for debate. However, looking at that particular thread of comments, the person who comes across as the biggest jerk is you. I know you don't agree with this, but the arrogance that dripped off that thread was hilarious - mind you, I am seriously contemplating deleting your comments because there is no place on a site like this for the type of language and personal attacks you launched. You may be an elite hacker, but you have zero social skills, so the problem is definitely at your end of the keyboard.
I was brought up to respect my elders. I don't respect many people nowadays.
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easierI don't appreciate you stalking me, reading one topic, and assuming that you have all the facts. (I'd crossed paths with one of the involved member on a few occasions, and had told him to never talk to me again. I assume the other is an ALT account for another member I had issues with.) Why don't you go read me and stefan_langs conversations, we fought a bit, but we've also had GREAT conversations, all of it was based on his choice of words when speaking to me. I don't just attack people, they earned it, in some way or another, and it's not your place to play judge, especially when you lack all of the facts.
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Joe_Dert wrote:
I'm seriously, confused, I have NO CLUE, what you're on about
If you spoke English you'd know the underlined comma was superfluous. BTW, superfluous means it wasn't needed and failed to add anything to the message. I said you have been shown up and it is true. Almost without fail, your diatribe has been ridiculed and belittled. You missed PB's[^] humorous use of Txtspk that showed his opinion of your age and IQ; both in the low teens. Then syou miss the humo(u)r[^] of a response to you reply. Next up you try and convince MM to play far. FFS, MM doesn't play far with his dick so you stand no chance. There are rules and there are conventions and we all, to greater or lesser extents, obey them. You crossed the one line that will get anyone flamed - don't troll. You might think you're not trolling, but offending non-Americans is trolling. This site is NOT American, it flies it's seal clubbing, 'roo loving, beer swilling credentials from the roof tops. We all work in English, not US-Can't Spell English or the Queen's Bally English but good International English. I've put down my gin for this, so read it, understand it and FFS stop being a dork!
Reality is an illusion caused by a lack of alcohol
I have a form of dyslexia, that causes me to screw things like that up. In fast pace exchanges I can't hide it as well, but, I generally can in normal conversations, since I can proof read it several times, etc,. But thanks for poking at my disability, you've proven yourself to be so much more understanding than I, when it comes to language problems. Edit: See, just fixed several typos, damn you dyslexia!!! (Edit2: Missed more of them...)
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I have a form of dyslexia, that causes me to screw things like that up. In fast pace exchanges I can't hide it as well, but, I generally can in normal conversations, since I can proof read it several times, etc,. But thanks for poking at my disability, you've proven yourself to be so much more understanding than I, when it comes to language problems. Edit: See, just fixed several typos, damn you dyslexia!!! (Edit2: Missed more of them...)
You really are a Sunshine.
Reality is an illusion caused by a lack of alcohol
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Thank you for continuing to prove my point. My share of this side conversation has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with you and EVERYTHING to do with taking a humorous shot at Mick's humorous shot (or, since he's an Aussie I guess it would be "humourous shot"). Again, take a breath. Take life, and yourself, less seriously.
If we knew each other better, it might be okay, be we've really only just met. If you like that sort of thing, and think yourselves witty, go join Joe Rogans forums, they love that stuff, and have plenty of witty folks. (It's basically how they measure respect on that forum, who's the wittiest.) Frankly, I stopped going after making a few post. (No, I won my debates.) I just didn't like that atmosphere.
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Hardly. You've attacked people who were injecting a bit of humor into the thread because you were trying so hard to be serious. I truly don't care about the original topic, and am not projecting anything. Nice try though. I also have no need to "take [my] own advice" since my calm is quite good, but thanks for your concern.
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Joe_Dert wrote:
It's rude to argue with people in a language you don't understand.
Per that phrasing it is actually impossible. One could neither read nor post. So the question is one of degree and not an absolute. In terms of degree - then no it isn't "rude". And actually the whole topic seems a bit illogical. A 'logical' argument in one in which the participants agree to the terms and then, using an agreed upon process, attempt to reach a conclusion based on those terms. The "argue" part is part of the process normally and not part of the term agreement. And you, far as I can tell, either are suggesting they don't understand the terms, which means you should either give up or explain it to them, or you ignore the fact that they don't understand the terms and then get irritated because the process fails. But of course it fails because of the lack of term agreement. Thus it is illogical.