Why I support bringing back the death penalty...
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I as a citizen weigh "punishment" and "protection of the public" however far higher than "rehabilitation"... And I suppose I'm not the only one. I have seen some prisons too (however never been inside one). I guess for lesser crimes it doesn't have to be that strict. (there are even some concepts where you can continue your work at your workplace, but you have to speend your free time (including nights and weekends) in the prison.) As I'm not a psychologist (or at least very experienced at psychology) I can only guess how hard it is to be jailed. Also it probably differs in every country. I once saw a documentation about a prison in Norway where the prisoners where nearly free. The only bounds where that they had to stay on the island where the prison is located: see Link[^] In February a german journalist choose to go to jail for 2 days instead of paying a fine for 350 CHF (around 370 USD). Afterwards he laughed about his stay there. And that there more facilities that a lot of hotels offer their residents... How can a jail be punishment if it's preferable to paying a bit of money? Note: the fine was for speeding (116 km/h instead of 100, and yes in Switzerland the fines are generally very high) Source for reference (in German): Link[^]
Nicholas Marty wrote:
I as a citizen weigh "punishment" and "protection of the public" however far higher than "rehabilitation"
Rehabilitation is the same as protection of the public if you look at the future as well. You have to keep locked up those who are a danger to the public or their property. You have to try to make those you release less likely to re-offend, and that is somewhere that many countries struggle I believe. Does making prisons more unpleasant make those released less keen to go back again? Does releasing someone who can fit back into society and get a job make them less likely to re-offend? Prisons should not, in any situation, be a luxury, but I am all in favour of providing education and doing all that can be done to release people who have the best chance possible to make a positive contribution than a negative one to society from that point on.
“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks
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Nicholas Marty wrote:
I as a citizen weigh "punishment" and "protection of the public" however far higher than "rehabilitation"
Rehabilitation is the same as protection of the public if you look at the future as well. You have to keep locked up those who are a danger to the public or their property. You have to try to make those you release less likely to re-offend, and that is somewhere that many countries struggle I believe. Does making prisons more unpleasant make those released less keen to go back again? Does releasing someone who can fit back into society and get a job make them less likely to re-offend? Prisons should not, in any situation, be a luxury, but I am all in favour of providing education and doing all that can be done to release people who have the best chance possible to make a positive contribution than a negative one to society from that point on.
“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks
ChrisElston wrote:
Does releasing someone who can fit back into society and get a job make them less likely to re-offend?
Most likely: Yes.
ChrisElston wrote:
Does making prisons more unpleasant make those released less keen to go back again?
"less keen": I suppose so. Less likely to re-offend? Not necessarily. But, if you don't fear something how can it work as a deterrent?
ChrisElston wrote:
Prisons should not, in any situation, be a luxury, but I am all in favour of providing education and doing all that can be done to release people who have the best chance possible to make a positive contribution than a negative one to society from that point on.
With that I agree.
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ChrisElston wrote:
Does releasing someone who can fit back into society and get a job make them less likely to re-offend?
Most likely: Yes.
ChrisElston wrote:
Does making prisons more unpleasant make those released less keen to go back again?
"less keen": I suppose so. Less likely to re-offend? Not necessarily. But, if you don't fear something how can it work as a deterrent?
ChrisElston wrote:
Prisons should not, in any situation, be a luxury, but I am all in favour of providing education and doing all that can be done to release people who have the best chance possible to make a positive contribution than a negative one to society from that point on.
With that I agree.
Nicholas Marty wrote:
ChrisElston wrote:
Does making prisons more unpleasant make those released less keen to go back again?
"less keen": I suppose so. Less likely to re-offend? Not necessarily.
But, if you don't fear something how can it work as a deterrent?Depends how bad you life is on the outside. The 'short, sharp, shock' that is often talked about only works to those of a more privileged background. If you view your future on the outside as one of poverty with no hope of getting a job then free bed and board, no matter how basic, for a while is not going to put you off. In some parts of America young black men have a longer life expectancy on death row than they do outside of prison.
“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks
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Nicholas Marty wrote:
ChrisElston wrote:
Does making prisons more unpleasant make those released less keen to go back again?
"less keen": I suppose so. Less likely to re-offend? Not necessarily.
But, if you don't fear something how can it work as a deterrent?Depends how bad you life is on the outside. The 'short, sharp, shock' that is often talked about only works to those of a more privileged background. If you view your future on the outside as one of poverty with no hope of getting a job then free bed and board, no matter how basic, for a while is not going to put you off. In some parts of America young black men have a longer life expectancy on death row than they do outside of prison.
“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks
And thats why it would be by far more important to invest into prevention instead of retaliation ;)
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One might also note that criminals who are sentenced to death also spend years if not decades in jail before the the penalty is executed... I must admit that I think that death sentence is not in itself a bad solution. The problem is: what do you do when you killed a murderer only to find out a year later that you have erred? you can't make amendments then. As long as there is not 100% evidence of the guilt there should also not be a death penalty. What I for one do not understand: How is it possible that prisoners have a better life than some homeless/jobless people? Food, shelter, gym, tv other facilities etc.? I don't think thats exactly the punishment one would expect... I don't expect from them to go back to the middle age with a wooden cot, water and moldy bread... But the luxury of todays prisons is getting a bit out of hand for my taste...
Nicholas Marty wrote:
How is it possible that prisoners have a better life than some homeless/jobless people?
The mere fact that they cannot decide on their schedule, and that they are not free, makes their life far worse than being homeless/jobless. Ask homeless people if they'd want to go to jail instead of being in the street...
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus Do not feed the troll ! - Common proverb
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_Damian S_ wrote:
$100K per year per scumbag
You're in full 'Today Tonight' mode now :) Can you imagine the cost of introducing the death penalty? How many lawyers would be required to write the laws? And that's just the top of the ice berg. $100K is a lot of money to you and I but less than a drop in the ocean for the government. This is why sensationalist media love big numbers.
_Damian S_ wrote:
Why let them continue to breathe the air that they didn't afford their victims the same right to breathe?
Because members of a civilized society don't kill each other.
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Because members of a civilized society don't kill each other.
Exactly. So, one someone is uncivilized enough to murder someone else, they should be kicked out of society (killed.)
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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_Damian S_ wrote:
Well, for one thing, saving $100K per year per scumbag to keep them in maximum security.
As I posted the other day when this reared its head in the lounge, the reality is that it costs more to execute someone than to keep them locked up for the rest of their lives. Aside from that I agree with everything Josh and Nagy have put. It is not a deterrent, loss of life is not a greater punishment than loss of liberty, it is about revenge, and it is a hollow revenge that very, very rarely brings any comfort to the families of the victims even if they thought it might do beforehand. And in a civilised society you cannot say it is wrong for you to kill but OK for us.
“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks
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And in a civilised society you cannot say it is wrong for you to kill but OK for us.
Of course you can. And it isn't quite that simplistic. It isn't just killing, but murdering. There are different types of killing. When someone takes the life of someone else intentionally and not in defense then they deserve to die. That is a valid rule.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Perhaps not for the mother, who no doubt was also a victim of sorts, but still rightly in jail, but for the partner who brutally destroyed a young life... clickety[^]
Quad skating his way through the world since the early 80's... Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
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I'm with Josh and, surprisingly, MM. Let the mofu rot in jail, but no matter how heinous the crime I cannot condone the taking of a life. The death penalty is pure revenge, it doesn't solve anything, it doesn't deter other chrimes, it doesn't bring back the victims. Send the perpetrators to jail and leave them there until they die. The message is there and it is clear - "You are not civilised, you are not part of society. We the society are civilised and so we will not treat you like you treated your victims, but we will choose your destiny. Your life is now owned by society and society chooses to let you live."
Reality is an illusion caused by a lack of alcohol "Nagy, you have won the internets." - Keith Barrow
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The death penalty is pure revenge
Perhaps from the point of view of the affected. But, from the point of view of the law it is merely the punishment. The problem with murder is there cannot be any restitution made. The murderer can never fix the problem. Is it revenge when we punish someone for stealing? No, of course not. It's not revenge to kill a killer, at least not in the court's eyes.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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And in a civilised society you cannot say it is wrong for you to kill but OK for us.
Of course you can. And it isn't quite that simplistic. It isn't just killing, but murdering. There are different types of killing. When someone takes the life of someone else intentionally and not in defense then they deserve to die. That is a valid rule.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
When someone takes the life of someone else intentionally and not in defense then they deserve to die. That is a valid rule.
Only in a few backwards places like China, Iran, North Korea, and the USA, the rest of the world has moved on.
“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks
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Because members of a civilized society don't kill each other.
Exactly. So, one someone is uncivilized enough to murder someone else, they should be kicked out of society (killed.)
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
So, one someone is uncivilized enough to murder someone else, they should be killed.
And you don't see any contradiction in that statement? "Killing is wrong, so if you kill someone, we'll kill you." As someone possibly said once[^], "An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind".
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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ryanb31 wrote:
When someone takes the life of someone else intentionally and not in defense then they deserve to die. That is a valid rule.
Only in a few backwards places like China, Iran, North Korea, and the USA, the rest of the world has moved on.
“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks
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ryanb31 wrote:
So, one someone is uncivilized enough to murder someone else, they should be killed.
And you don't see any contradiction in that statement? "Killing is wrong, so if you kill someone, we'll kill you." As someone possibly said once[^], "An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind".
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
Again, it isn't if you kill we kill. If you murder, then yes we kill. What's the point in keeping them alive? It's the same for parents who spank children. One point of view is to see it as hypocritical. In the case of murder, that is the rule. If you murder, you die.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Perhaps not for the mother, who no doubt was also a victim of sorts, but still rightly in jail, but for the partner who brutally destroyed a young life... clickety[^]
Quad skating his way through the world since the early 80's... Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
Death is short, you only notice dying and the time you spend waiting. I'm sure that with the right combination of medication and physical- and psychological torture, you could completely break a person while keeping them alive for the longest possible time. If you want revenge, do it right.
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Again, it isn't if you kill we kill. If you murder, then yes we kill. What's the point in keeping them alive? It's the same for parents who spank children. One point of view is to see it as hypocritical. In the case of murder, that is the rule. If you murder, you die.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
What's the point in keeping them alive?
What's the point in killing them?
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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ryanb31 wrote:
What's the point in keeping them alive?
What's the point in killing them?
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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What's the point in killing them?
They are a waste of space? They have lost the right to be here? You pick. In a world where abortion is so widely accepted I am surprised so many people are against the death penalty. I am not suggesting it is the same people but it does seem odd to me.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Because members of a civilized society don't kill each other.
Exactly. So, one someone is uncivilized enough to murder someone else, they should be kicked out of society (killed.)
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
So, one someone is uncivilized enough to murder someone else, they should be kicked out of society (killed.)
Being kicked out of society is something different from being killed. As soon as someone claims the right to kill, I'll *decide* I have the same rights.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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ryanb31 wrote:
So, one someone is uncivilized enough to murder someone else, they should be kicked out of society (killed.)
Being kicked out of society is something different from being killed. As soon as someone claims the right to kill, I'll *decide* I have the same rights.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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What's the point in killing them?
They are a waste of space? They have lost the right to be here? You pick. In a world where abortion is so widely accepted I am surprised so many people are against the death penalty. I am not suggesting it is the same people but it does seem odd to me.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
They are a waste of space?
In other words, "I don't like them, therefore ... REVENGE!"
ryanb31 wrote:
They have lost the right to be here?
That's a judgement which has to be made by society as a whole, and most civilised societies have decided that the death penalty is an overreaction.
ryanb31 wrote:
In a world where abortion is so widely accepted ...
Abortion is a completely separate argument which doesn't belong in this thread. Suffice it to say that it doesn't involve depriving a living person of life.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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ryanb31 wrote:
They are a waste of space?
In other words, "I don't like them, therefore ... REVENGE!"
ryanb31 wrote:
They have lost the right to be here?
That's a judgement which has to be made by society as a whole, and most civilised societies have decided that the death penalty is an overreaction.
ryanb31 wrote:
In a world where abortion is so widely accepted ...
Abortion is a completely separate argument which doesn't belong in this thread. Suffice it to say that it doesn't involve depriving a living person of life.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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In other words, "I don't like them, therefore ... REVENGE!"
No, in your words.
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That's a judgement which has to be made by society as a whole
I agree. So, let each society decide.
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that the death penalty is an overreaction.
But again, why keep them alive? What's the purpose? Just to remain "civilized"?
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Suffice it to say that it doesn't involve depriving a living person of life.
Did you really mean to say that?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
