Bloatware in "standard" downloads
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I believe that HTML5 will replace flash and I'd like to believe that that will happen sooner rather than later. Java... what I have to say better be left unsaid.
At best this is probably at best a 5 year solution. Even assuming HTML5 does become a feature complete flash replacement the amount of legacy code in flash means we'll still need it for years. Java in the browser has been unneeded for something like a decade now; but last night I ran into a site still using a java chart/visualization plugin. I had to fire up my WTFbrowser, which is only used for crappy obsolete sites (and to copy tables into Excel) to make the page work. I especially loved that neither Opera nor Firefox's (didn't think to try Chrome) error messages informed me of which plugin I'd need to install to make it work. :doh:
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
We are in agreement. There is nothing that you and I said that is in conflict. Its a matter of belief and hope on my part that my wishes should happen sooner rather than later. The realities of it are like you said, there are some antiquated websites out there that still use steam engines to power them, and not in a cool steampunk manner.
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Chris Maunder wrote:
what does McAfee antivirus have to do with Adobe
Money. Lots of it. ;) I try to avoid Adobe and Oracle Products if I can. No Flash Player (ok. Flash Player is integrated into Chrome, update through Chrome Updates however), No JRE (why should I need that?) and no Acrobat Reader (also: there Is a PDF Viewer integrated into Chrome).
Honestly, how do the economics of click through BS work?
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I'm a little slow but it finally dawned on me that by having software manufactures like Adobe and Oracle present you with an "update" every second day they are simply giving themselves more opportunities to trip you up and accidentally install McAfee or the Ask toolbar. This is wrong on so many levels. It's untargeted, for a start: When am I, in a million years, going to want the "Ask" toolbar? It's also out of context: what does McAfee antivirus have to do with Adobe? (Or is that a really, really silly question?) or the Ask toolbar have to do with Java? So what can we, as software developers, do about this? Push Silverlight instead of Flash (oh yeah - Microsoft killed Silverlight) or HTML5 (except it's not a Flash replacement). Do we ditch Java? Not likely given it's predominance in the mobile arena. Stage a sit-in at Oracle HQ? Write witty, vitriolic blog posts they won't read? I'm open for ideas.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
It's the same as unfunded government mandates forced upon it's citizens. Thing is, even if the citizen could 'vote' them (either the bloatware or politician) out of (the citizen's PC's) office, they'll find yet another way to to force the unfunded mandate onto the citizen, including having the highest "Ultra" Court (er, software manufacturer) deem it OK to tax the citizen for failure to buy (er, install) it. Aside from repeating history (11 score and 17 years ago...), the only option seems to be that of "Write[ing] witty (or not), vitriolic blog posts they won't read."
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The problem is that Java and Flash are the primary routes for exploiting consumer machines. Unless MS relents on only allowing metro apps to be patched by its infrastructure, we're stuck with crappy first party updaters shilling crapware to the uninformed.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
I think I agree, but might not after I cogitate on it for a couple hours. It's interesting what's happened with the propagation of the "app store" idea from the mobile space. Ubuntu (and presumably several other linux distributions, though I have to concede my own myopia), Apple, Android and the windows phone all have client-side applications that serve as clearing houses for software shopping and upgrades. Even on Windows you have things like Steam (cygwin deserves honorable mention as well) managing distribution of patches and such quite centrally. I really like the model and it occurs to me to wonder if that's not the path of least resistance to solving the problem.
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I think I agree, but might not after I cogitate on it for a couple hours. It's interesting what's happened with the propagation of the "app store" idea from the mobile space. Ubuntu (and presumably several other linux distributions, though I have to concede my own myopia), Apple, Android and the windows phone all have client-side applications that serve as clearing houses for software shopping and upgrades. Even on Windows you have things like Steam (cygwin deserves honorable mention as well) managing distribution of patches and such quite centrally. I really like the model and it occurs to me to wonder if that's not the path of least resistance to solving the problem.
AFAIK *nix package managers predate mobile app stores. I attribute this less to brilliant foresighted design, than to the fact that managing dependencies to build from source was an epic cluster-elephant.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
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AFAIK *nix package managers predate mobile app stores. I attribute this less to brilliant foresighted design, than to the fact that managing dependencies to build from source was an epic cluster-elephant.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
Yeah, true. But I think the mechanic of accepting 3rd party software in to the package management system (and blurring the definition rather a lot) really shot into prominence with apple's iPhone app store no?
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Yeah, true. But I think the mechanic of accepting 3rd party software in to the package management system (and blurring the definition rather a lot) really shot into prominence with apple's iPhone app store no?
It depends how you look at it. Centrally controlled trees like the FreeBSD ports tree and that falls under your definition, then ports has been in use since 1994. The rest, pkgsrc, apt-get, yum, yast and all the others more or less followed that standard. AFAIK, the App store is locked and needs approvals signed in triplicate and fees paid and so on, correct? But the App store really EXPLODED the number of apps
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Quote worthy: I hereby claim this thread in the name of Drivel. Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]? Food
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I'm a little slow but it finally dawned on me that by having software manufactures like Adobe and Oracle present you with an "update" every second day they are simply giving themselves more opportunities to trip you up and accidentally install McAfee or the Ask toolbar. This is wrong on so many levels. It's untargeted, for a start: When am I, in a million years, going to want the "Ask" toolbar? It's also out of context: what does McAfee antivirus have to do with Adobe? (Or is that a really, really silly question?) or the Ask toolbar have to do with Java? So what can we, as software developers, do about this? Push Silverlight instead of Flash (oh yeah - Microsoft killed Silverlight) or HTML5 (except it's not a Flash replacement). Do we ditch Java? Not likely given it's predominance in the mobile arena. Stage a sit-in at Oracle HQ? Write witty, vitriolic blog posts they won't read? I'm open for ideas.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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I don't know what you're complaining about. I love the Ask toolbar in my Netscape browser. :)
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
I'm actually just cranky that they aren't offering it on Mosaic.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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Chris Maunder wrote:
I'm open for ideas.
Flaming torches and pitchforks have always been effective... Since they are using an opt-out feature is there any way to automatically search for the opt-in checkboxes and uncheck them? this in itself would be a great add-in or the anti-add-in add-in. :confused: (My expertise is in hardware interfacing and know pretty much zip when it comes to web development.)
It was broke, so I fixed it.
I agree that you will not refrain from not withholding the BuyOurStuff toolbarcheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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I agree that you will not refrain from not withholding the BuyOurStuff toolbar
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
If they get that "clever" then the anti-add-on add-in would just abort the application installation and send the torches and pitchfork contingency group to demonstrate their appreciation for their "cleverness". :).
It was broke, so I fixed it.
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It depends how you look at it. Centrally controlled trees like the FreeBSD ports tree and that falls under your definition, then ports has been in use since 1994. The rest, pkgsrc, apt-get, yum, yast and all the others more or less followed that standard. AFAIK, the App store is locked and needs approvals signed in triplicate and fees paid and so on, correct? But the App store really EXPLODED the number of apps
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Sure. I'll grant that entirely. It's the 'threshold of market penetration' which is more interesting (in this context.)
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Yeah, true. But I think the mechanic of accepting 3rd party software in to the package management system (and blurring the definition rather a lot) really shot into prominence with apple's iPhone app store no?
Well yeah. Apple took the iPhone viral years ago; if they hadn't package managers would have first brought the concept to the mainstream next year when Linux conquers the desktop. :rolleyes:
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
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Honestly, how do the economics of click through BS work?
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Quote worthy: I hereby claim this thread in the name of Drivel. Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]? Food
The cost to install the checkbox in the installer is only a few hours of work* once; after that every time some sucker screws up the checkbox you get a pittance in your bank account. Just like with banner ads that only pay out when someone clicks one by accident. :rolleyes: * Unless you're using install shield anyway; but in that case the 3 days it takes is still rounding error compared to the rest of the time spent on the installer. :doh:
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
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The cost to install the checkbox in the installer is only a few hours of work* once; after that every time some sucker screws up the checkbox you get a pittance in your bank account. Just like with banner ads that only pay out when someone clicks one by accident. :rolleyes: * Unless you're using install shield anyway; but in that case the 3 days it takes is still rounding error compared to the rest of the time spent on the installer. :doh:
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
So they're literally getting millimes[^] on every rape forced installation? You know, if a small portion of the human ingenuity that is being applied to grab/nab/charge these micro-tariffs was being placed in other sciences, we'd be colonizing other planets now.
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Quote worthy: I hereby claim this thread in the name of Drivel. Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]? Food
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For a moment there I actually thought you were serious. I was amazed that such virginal innocence still existed in this day and age. Then I got to the last line and breathed a sigh of relief. Balance to my universe has been restored, sir.
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Quote worthy: I hereby claim this thread in the name of Drivel. Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]? Food
Hi, It's that little innocence that's left in me that wrote the first lines :-D
With friendly greetings,:) Eric Goedhart
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I'm a little slow but it finally dawned on me that by having software manufactures like Adobe and Oracle present you with an "update" every second day they are simply giving themselves more opportunities to trip you up and accidentally install McAfee or the Ask toolbar. This is wrong on so many levels. It's untargeted, for a start: When am I, in a million years, going to want the "Ask" toolbar? It's also out of context: what does McAfee antivirus have to do with Adobe? (Or is that a really, really silly question?) or the Ask toolbar have to do with Java? So what can we, as software developers, do about this? Push Silverlight instead of Flash (oh yeah - Microsoft killed Silverlight) or HTML5 (except it's not a Flash replacement). Do we ditch Java? Not likely given it's predominance in the mobile arena. Stage a sit-in at Oracle HQ? Write witty, vitriolic blog posts they won't read? I'm open for ideas.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
Step 0: A web site with a large number of technical visitors organises the rebellion Step 1: All users download and install the ASK toolbar Step 2: A coordinated use of all members using the toolbar simultaneously and constantly ensures its early demise. I'm sure said site's membership could automate the process quite easily? On the antivirus front a similar approach could bring them to their knees - maybe continually downloading the virus definitions. FIGHT BACK!! (It's nearly as bad as when you buy a new car and the bloody bint (it always seems to be a bint) tries to persuade you to buy the window tinting from them using the phrase "How dark a window tint would you like" rather than "would you like to pay double the price for us to get the windows tinted next door, or do you want to drive round there yourself and save $400"?
MVVM # - I did it My Way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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The quick hit is to stop it at the auto-update level. The number of update agents running on the average civilians machine is mind numbing. Aside from that, as onerous as it is, we're stuck. These are the just desserts of "free" commercial tools.
Wow!!! that is exactly what I do. First thing I do when I get new machine is run thru Services list and look for anything that has word Update in it. Then figure out who it belongs too and then either disable or (or change startup from Automatic to Manual). Second thing I do is replace Host to mask out whole heap of Ad servers. Only Google and dnsResponders are two things that keep resurrecting in service list and I keep killing 'em. I have not seen Ask toolbar on my machine but I've seen it on other colleague's machines and it is CPU cycle stealer ... I would not be surprised if it is eventually discovered as a tool created by some spoofing network designed to extract info out of user PC and send it to ....
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I'm a little slow but it finally dawned on me that by having software manufactures like Adobe and Oracle present you with an "update" every second day they are simply giving themselves more opportunities to trip you up and accidentally install McAfee or the Ask toolbar. This is wrong on so many levels. It's untargeted, for a start: When am I, in a million years, going to want the "Ask" toolbar? It's also out of context: what does McAfee antivirus have to do with Adobe? (Or is that a really, really silly question?) or the Ask toolbar have to do with Java? So what can we, as software developers, do about this? Push Silverlight instead of Flash (oh yeah - Microsoft killed Silverlight) or HTML5 (except it's not a Flash replacement). Do we ditch Java? Not likely given it's predominance in the mobile arena. Stage a sit-in at Oracle HQ? Write witty, vitriolic blog posts they won't read? I'm open for ideas.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
I killed Java on my dev machine as a consequence. Unfortunately I can't kill it on my desktop at home because OpenOffice requires it X| I tried to kill Flash Player as well, but unfortunately IT keeps pushing it to all machines in the network :mad: At home, I tried killing Flash, but there's simply too many web sites using it. So again, it's not a feasible solution. :-( In the meantime I've developed a mental image of Adobe strongly resembling a cockroach. I get a strong urge to literally boot that abominable Adobe Update Dialog every time I see it. Unfortunately I can't afford a new monitor every second day...
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Wow!!! that is exactly what I do. First thing I do when I get new machine is run thru Services list and look for anything that has word Update in it. Then figure out who it belongs too and then either disable or (or change startup from Automatic to Manual). Second thing I do is replace Host to mask out whole heap of Ad servers. Only Google and dnsResponders are two things that keep resurrecting in service list and I keep killing 'em. I have not seen Ask toolbar on my machine but I've seen it on other colleague's machines and it is CPU cycle stealer ... I would not be surprised if it is eventually discovered as a tool created by some spoofing network designed to extract info out of user PC and send it to ....
The problem with stopping the automatic update tasks is that the updates that you already have have serious flaws in them and that not geting the updates leaves you vulnerable to many security risks. I know that the network is down if there is not an Adobe update and a Kodak Home center update prompt when I start my PC. The only 'safe' (and non-bandwidth hogging) method is to delete the offending products and, on the rare occasions that you actually need them, download the latest version (this is easy - there is usually a download prompt displayed), use it and delete again. The slightly less safe method is to ignore the update requests up to the point that you actually want to use the product (this is less safe as you can accidentally run a product which is not patched). My current annoyances are: 1) Every time I start my W7 PC, something called jucheck.exe runs to see if Java needs updating and there seems to be no way of stopping it. 2) When AVG needs updating, it starts the process to update the free version but part way through it asks if you want the free full product (but it isn't free - it is the 30 day trial that is free). Thus far, I have managed to get that one right (but the language used requires a degree in logic to work out which is the radio button for 'free' and which is the radio button for 'free (trial)')> I know several people who have fallen foul of that gotcha. AVG also has an option for a search toolbar (can't remember which one) that is selected by default.