Visual Studio with MSDN Premium
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OriginalGriff wrote:
You are making a couple of faulty assumptions: that MS care about developers, and the MS care about end users.
Er, no, I didn't make those assumptions anywhere.
Veni, vidi, abiit domum
I know you didn't. But I think Joel did... :laugh:
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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You are making a couple of faulty assumptions: that MS care about developers, and the MS care about end users. They don't: they care about money. And the large companies they expect to sell the top-end product to will just pay up and move on, because it isn't the people signing the purchase order's money. While there are people who will pay it, they will continue to gouge charge. Have to considered buying second hand copies of office on FleaBay to complete your collection that way, probably cost less than $500 for the lot...
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
I agree with your conclusions but I don't agree that they don't care. MS is made up of a bunch of developers and we're developers. I think that's just a brash and over-extended generalization. Unless you're saying that you don't care about the work you do and you suspect that all developers are the same way. Just like the company I work for, they are priced at "what the market will bare". However, I do agree that its because we generally aren't the one filling the PO. Because we are one step removed they tend to get away with over-inflating their value. I'm just saying that it doesn't make business or logical sense that they'd price it with this much excess. Yes, Fleabay is likely my next step. Got a copy of MS Office 97 for sale?
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
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Joel Palmer wrote:
You've missed the point.
Not at all, I understand your point completely. You feel this price is too high for you, but you have not put into the context of what profits you make on the back of Mirosoft's technology.
Joel Palmer wrote:
Pricing their products out of a developer's solutions does not make any business sense.
Well, assuming that some people are paying their prices then it makes perfect business sense. It's pretty certain that these are not just arbitrary prices but based on Misrosoft knowing their target market. Mybe you should raise this with them.
Veni, vidi, abiit domum
Been there; done that. How many solutions will I need to develop to justify $5000 overhead? Here, I spent 4 hours taking that data and putting it in a spreadsheet. That'll be $6000.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
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I agree with your conclusions but I don't agree that they don't care. MS is made up of a bunch of developers and we're developers. I think that's just a brash and over-extended generalization. Unless you're saying that you don't care about the work you do and you suspect that all developers are the same way. Just like the company I work for, they are priced at "what the market will bare". However, I do agree that its because we generally aren't the one filling the PO. Because we are one step removed they tend to get away with over-inflating their value. I'm just saying that it doesn't make business or logical sense that they'd price it with this much excess. Yes, Fleabay is likely my next step. Got a copy of MS Office 97 for sale?
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
:laugh: Nope! But FleaBay[^] has loads! MS employs a lot of developers yes, but they don't set prices, and they don't care about prices - because they don't have to pay them. And they don't all care about other developers, or they wouldn't have made VS2010 all SHOUTY and gray... :laugh: And they would probably have tried to fix some of the worse bugs that still exist in the latest version from VS2005. :sigh:
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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:laugh: Nope! But FleaBay[^] has loads! MS employs a lot of developers yes, but they don't set prices, and they don't care about prices - because they don't have to pay them. And they don't all care about other developers, or they wouldn't have made VS2010 all SHOUTY and gray... :laugh: And they would probably have tried to fix some of the worse bugs that still exist in the latest version from VS2005. :sigh:
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
You must be a joy to have as a co-worker. :wtf: Oh no! Its 1/100ths empty. :wtf: Evidentially you've never written code in Notepad.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
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You must be a joy to have as a co-worker. :wtf: Oh no! Its 1/100ths empty. :wtf: Evidentially you've never written code in Notepad.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Just a realist when it comes to MS: I got fed up with Beta testing on DOS because they never listened to feedback even then.
Joel Palmer wrote:
Evidentially you've never written code in Notepad.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Has any looked at the MSDN pricing lately? I do some MS Office (excel) integration for my customers so it requires that I get their version of MS Office (all the versions; 97 to 2013) to program against. To have access to Office I need to upgrade from the MSDN Pro to MSDN Premium... which costs $5000 more! Can anyone explain to me how they can justify charging developers $5000 to integrate with their products? I'm not writing the president's speeches using these installs. I'm writing software so my customers will continue to use MS products and purchase licenses. :(( I don't understand. What am I missing... besides the money to do it? :((
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Unf. Consultants don't correctly bill for their time in Software making a "flux" of "cheap" candidates that don't understand basic economics. I don't actively maintain an MSDN (although I was graced with one this year and last) but I do build the cost of software and training into my hourly rate. Perhaps you can consider a license burden fee of $500 for any client that uses any version but the latest of Office. Cost of doing business.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost "All users always want Excel" --Ennis Lynch
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:laugh: Nope! But FleaBay[^] has loads! MS employs a lot of developers yes, but they don't set prices, and they don't care about prices - because they don't have to pay them. And they don't all care about other developers, or they wouldn't have made VS2010 all SHOUTY and gray... :laugh: And they would probably have tried to fix some of the worse bugs that still exist in the latest version from VS2005. :sigh:
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
OriginalGriff wrote:
VS2010 all SHOUTY and gray... :laugh:
Isn't that 2012 you are talking about? Idon't see the problem, apart from the Menus is VS 2012 (or 2013) by far better to work with.
Clean-up crew needed, grammar spill... - Nagy Vilmos
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Has any looked at the MSDN pricing lately? I do some MS Office (excel) integration for my customers so it requires that I get their version of MS Office (all the versions; 97 to 2013) to program against. To have access to Office I need to upgrade from the MSDN Pro to MSDN Premium... which costs $5000 more! Can anyone explain to me how they can justify charging developers $5000 to integrate with their products? I'm not writing the president's speeches using these installs. I'm writing software so my customers will continue to use MS products and purchase licenses. :(( I don't understand. What am I missing... besides the money to do it? :((
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Have you looked into BizSpark? http://www.microsoft.com/bizspark/[^]
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Just a realist when it comes to MS: I got fed up with Beta testing on DOS because they never listened to feedback even then.
Joel Palmer wrote:
Evidentially you've never written code in Notepad.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Just a realist when it comes to MS: I got fed up with Beta testing on DOS because they never listened to feedback even then.
Joel Palmer wrote:
Evidentially you've never written code in Notepad.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Thank you for that generous offer, but I will reluctantly have to decline. And I typed that with a straight face! I'm getting better at not swearing at people. :laugh:
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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OriginalGriff wrote:
VS2010 all SHOUTY and gray... :laugh:
Isn't that 2012 you are talking about? Idon't see the problem, apart from the Menus is VS 2012 (or 2013) by far better to work with.
Clean-up crew needed, grammar spill... - Nagy Vilmos
Yes... :-O
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Just a realist when it comes to MS: I got fed up with Beta testing on DOS because they never listened to feedback even then.
Joel Palmer wrote:
Evidentially you've never written code in Notepad.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
Man up! Use Vi
MVVM # - I did it My Way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Unf. Consultants don't correctly bill for their time in Software making a "flux" of "cheap" candidates that don't understand basic economics. I don't actively maintain an MSDN (although I was graced with one this year and last) but I do build the cost of software and training into my hourly rate. Perhaps you can consider a license burden fee of $500 for any client that uses any version but the latest of Office. Cost of doing business.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost "All users always want Excel" --Ennis Lynch
I find there is a certain level of trepidation on the part of consultants to actually charge, sure they want to put in # per hour but never seem to want to add in the ancillary costs that they have just doing business. I know I was like that. Eventually when you go broke running a negative cash flow you do wake up though.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Has any looked at the MSDN pricing lately? I do some MS Office (excel) integration for my customers so it requires that I get their version of MS Office (all the versions; 97 to 2013) to program against. To have access to Office I need to upgrade from the MSDN Pro to MSDN Premium... which costs $5000 more! Can anyone explain to me how they can justify charging developers $5000 to integrate with their products? I'm not writing the president's speeches using these installs. I'm writing software so my customers will continue to use MS products and purchase licenses. :(( I don't understand. What am I missing... besides the money to do it? :((
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
It's been around that price for as long as I can remember. I think there might've been a set of intermediate versions around $2.5/3k at one point each with a somewhat different set of Stuff Other than Visual Studio, but they got removed several VS versions ago because they made figuring out what version of VS you needed too complicated. Instead they collapsed it into 4 distinct tiers. 0) Express - Free; gets the job done as a basic coder but doesn't come with any quality of life benefits for developers. 1) Pro - The standard ordinary MS developer version has a fully functional VS and developer versions of the most commonly used MS server applications. Good enough for about 90% of people. 2) Premium - Adds a few more helpers to VS (but from what I've seen on MSDN I'd rather have Pro + R#er than Premium on its own); the main justification for why this one is so much more expensive is that it comes with developer versions of almost everything no matter how old or esoteric. Unless your employer has guzzled the MS koolaid you'll never need to use more than a small fraction of it though. 3) Ultimate - This version mostly exists to fleece employers who buy the best of everything no matter the cost; or Enterprise Developers (tm) fleeing the grips of irRational; for whom the handful of UML related odds and ends tossed in the bundle are actually likely to be useful and for whom $10k looks cheap. If MS were to offer a single new version at ~$3k that combined VS premium and the right to pick and choose an arbitrary few of the complete server app and etcs collection in premium they'd probably see a bunch of sales for it. The reason it will probably never happen is that most of the sales would be from customers who bought premium for a single item on the laundry list going to the cheaper edition; not people at the pro level spending up. :doh:
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
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Has any looked at the MSDN pricing lately? I do some MS Office (excel) integration for my customers so it requires that I get their version of MS Office (all the versions; 97 to 2013) to program against. To have access to Office I need to upgrade from the MSDN Pro to MSDN Premium... which costs $5000 more! Can anyone explain to me how they can justify charging developers $5000 to integrate with their products? I'm not writing the president's speeches using these installs. I'm writing software so my customers will continue to use MS products and purchase licenses. :(( I don't understand. What am I missing... besides the money to do it? :((
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Well, what you appear to be "missing" at this point in time, on this thread, is that OriginalGriff, Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr., and Richard MacCutchan have given you practical, immediately useful, advice, based on years of experience and hard-won knowledge, which you should listen to, very carefully.
“But I don't want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked. “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be," said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.” Lewis Carroll
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I agree with your conclusions but I don't agree that they don't care. MS is made up of a bunch of developers and we're developers. I think that's just a brash and over-extended generalization. Unless you're saying that you don't care about the work you do and you suspect that all developers are the same way. Just like the company I work for, they are priced at "what the market will bare". However, I do agree that its because we generally aren't the one filling the PO. Because we are one step removed they tend to get away with over-inflating their value. I'm just saying that it doesn't make business or logical sense that they'd price it with this much excess. Yes, Fleabay is likely my next step. Got a copy of MS Office 97 for sale?
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel Palmer wrote:
MS is made up of a bunch of developers, accountants, marketers, etc. and we're just developers and don't understand the rest of the business model.
FTFY :-D
Joel Palmer wrote:
Got a copy of MS Office 97 for sale?
The people here will probably be able to get one for you.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
OriginalGriff wrote:
You are making a couple of faulty assumptions: that MS care about developers, and the MS care about end users.
Er, no, I didn't make those assumptions anywhere.
Veni, vidi, abiit domum
Not true. Developers are the lifeblood of MSFT and we create the ecosystem from which they generate $billions of profit. Unfortunately, they do not understand the developer community. If they did, they would have free MSDN licenses for individual developers and charge for corporate licenses for those who develop commercial products. Developers like me generate huge revenues and profits for MSFT through SQL Server, Office, Azure, etc. licenses yet we have to pay dearly for the privilege (Visual Studio license fees, MSDN subscription, TFS, training fees and alike). It is just sad.
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Man up! Use Vi
MVVM # - I did it My Way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Vi? Of course, we 'ad it 'ard. We used to get up in 't morning, scrape some electrons off the clouds, put them into the right addresses on 't chips one at a time. The only way we knew it were working were if the gaffer didn't rip the roof off our shed and drive us out wit' steam hose. :laugh:
