What is it with these Gay Rights people
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chriselst wrote:
It is absolutely true because you have observed one example. Nice sampling.
That was one example. Every boy that I've seen growing up emulated their father in one way or other. I have many nephews and cousins who are younger.
chriselst wrote:
Although you then contradict yourself, admitting he is emulating others too.
How is that a contradiction? Kids will eventually learn from other kids. But before they go out and meet kids in school or even daycare, they start learning from and emulating their parents.
chriselst wrote:
Utter bollocks.
If you're a prejudiced throwback who cannot accept the real world then you tell them who to date and try to control their life. It has nothing to do with being gay or being straight.So the real world is letting them choose whatever they want with no input from you? The fact that you guide them does not mean you control them. No opinion in how they live is just as bad as controlling every aspect of it.
chriselst wrote:
I have not decided how she will lead her life, that is up to her. All I can do is give her all the information she needs to make her own informed choices and try to teach her to be kind to others.
I am not expecting you, nor me, to lead their lives for them. However, we are expected to guide them. Telling your daughter she can date whoever she wants at a young age is basically telling her she doesn't have to be straight. Ergo, you can be gay.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Telling your daughter she can date whoever she wants at a young age is basically telling her she doesn't have to be straight. Ergo, you can be gay.
Of course she can be gay. How does that make any difference to me? Will it make her a different person? Will it make me love her less? She can be whoever she wants to be, whoever makes her happiest. I had some Jehovah's Witnesses round my front door a few years ago. The woman told me she had never seen her grandkids and didn't have any contact with her own daughter any more because the grandkids were born out of wedlock. How desperately sad. Children rebel against control, the tighter the control the further they rebel. I have known so many who have lost any kind of relationship with their parents because their parents could not approve of who they were.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Telling your daughter she can date whoever she wants at a young age is basically telling her she doesn't have to be straight. Ergo, you can be gay.
Of course she can be gay. How does that make any difference to me? Will it make her a different person? Will it make me love her less? She can be whoever she wants to be, whoever makes her happiest. I had some Jehovah's Witnesses round my front door a few years ago. The woman told me she had never seen her grandkids and didn't have any contact with her own daughter any more because the grandkids were born out of wedlock. How desperately sad. Children rebel against control, the tighter the control the further they rebel. I have known so many who have lost any kind of relationship with their parents because their parents could not approve of who they were.
chriselst wrote:
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Telling your daughter she can date whoever she wants at a young age is basically telling her she doesn't have to be straight. Ergo, you can be gay.
Of course she can be gay. How does that make any difference to me? Will it make her a different person? Will it make me love her less?
Reread what I wrote. The fact that you DON'T tell her to be straight IMPLIES that you're telling her she can be gay. That contradicts your other statements on how you can raise someone straight or gay. You're basically giving her the green light on being gay if she chooses to without even realizing it. Will you love her less if she was ugly, stupid, boring, short, fat, slow, or a kleptomaniac. No. She's your daughter. That doesn't mean we accept everything about our kids blindly. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
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chriselst wrote:
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Telling your daughter she can date whoever she wants at a young age is basically telling her she doesn't have to be straight. Ergo, you can be gay.
Of course she can be gay. How does that make any difference to me? Will it make her a different person? Will it make me love her less?
Reread what I wrote. The fact that you DON'T tell her to be straight IMPLIES that you're telling her she can be gay. That contradicts your other statements on how you can raise someone straight or gay. You're basically giving her the green light on being gay if she chooses to without even realizing it. Will you love her less if she was ugly, stupid, boring, short, fat, slow, or a kleptomaniac. No. She's your daughter. That doesn't mean we accept everything about our kids blindly. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
You are an idiot. Sorry, only conclusion I can come to. You cannot raise someone to be gay or to be straight. You can try, but you will most likely fail. I am not implying that I am telling my telling she can be gay, I am explicitly stating that I will tell her she can be gay if that is what feels right for her and that is what makes her happy. Telling her that will not make it more likely that she is gay. Telling her that will probably make it less likely that should she be gay then she will not attempt to hide the fact from me, less likely that she will not fight against herself to try to be who she thinks I want her to be, less likely that she will not grow to hate me for not approving of who she is, less likely that she will kill herself. Nope, if she is gay then it will not change our relationship one bit. Any other reaction on my part would damage her and damage me.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
don't tell me I have to accept you being gay without you accepting me being straight
Way to turn the prejudice around - from "I hate f*gs" to "why do f*gs hate me". X| How many heterophobic people have you encountered? How many stories have you read about gangs of homosexuals going round beating up anyone they thinks isn't gay? I'm going to guess at "none".
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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You are an idiot. Sorry, only conclusion I can come to. You cannot raise someone to be gay or to be straight. You can try, but you will most likely fail. I am not implying that I am telling my telling she can be gay, I am explicitly stating that I will tell her she can be gay if that is what feels right for her and that is what makes her happy. Telling her that will not make it more likely that she is gay. Telling her that will probably make it less likely that should she be gay then she will not attempt to hide the fact from me, less likely that she will not fight against herself to try to be who she thinks I want her to be, less likely that she will not grow to hate me for not approving of who she is, less likely that she will kill herself. Nope, if she is gay then it will not change our relationship one bit. Any other reaction on my part would damage her and damage me.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
but don't tell me I have to accept you being gay without you accepting me being straight. It works both ways (without being bi).
:thumbsup: Tha'ts the point. And as I said elsewhere, I think sexual education shall be done at an appropriate age, and by the parents. How they exactly do it is their business, as long as they raise their kids with tolerance towards others. What really disturbs me about the russian law is the fact that they actively promote beating up gays, making them 2nd class people and indirectly drawing the line between gays and pedophiles. Pedos and gays are not the same, and for this reason I happily help you slap a pedo, but not someone who's happen to be gay.
Clean-up crew needed, grammar spill... - Nagy Vilmos
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
don't tell me I have to accept you being gay without you accepting me being straight
Way to turn the prejudice around - from "I hate f*gs" to "why do f*gs hate me". X| How many heterophobic people have you encountered? How many stories have you read about gangs of homosexuals going round beating up anyone they thinks isn't gay? I'm going to guess at "none".
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
Richard Deeming wrote:
Way to turn the prejudice around - from "I hate f*gs" to "why do f*gs hate me".
Way to turn my argument about being left alone into a prejudice about turning another prejudice around. These are the arguments that people use to deflect what they don't want to hear. X|
Richard Deeming wrote:
How many heterophobic people have you encountered? How many stories have you read about gangs of homosexuals going round beating up anyone they thinks isn't gay? I'm going to guess at "none".
If you're going to bring up a separate argument into my point of discussion, then I blame global warming for creating gays. BTW, "none" implies some while "some" implies none or all.
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You are correct I don't consider gay relationships "normal", I do define normal as male/female anything else is an aberration. I don't care if they are common throughout history and you can keep other species, I'm talking about human normal.
chriselst wrote:
Because you think they are not normal then they should not be talked about in a positive way.
I have no idea where you got that from, I am not gay bashing just don't get why they are so militant on the Russian thing (I understand the vigilantism and find it disturbing). Inter-racial has absolutely nothing to do with the subject, I don't care how "common" they are and they certainly can't be measured in the same way, preposterous. If they are male/female they rate as normal IMHO.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
but don't tell me I have to accept you being gay without you accepting me being straight. It works both ways (without being bi).
:thumbsup: Tha'ts the point. And as I said elsewhere, I think sexual education shall be done at an appropriate age, and by the parents. How they exactly do it is their business, as long as they raise their kids with tolerance towards others. What really disturbs me about the russian law is the fact that they actively promote beating up gays, making them 2nd class people and indirectly drawing the line between gays and pedophiles. Pedos and gays are not the same, and for this reason I happily help you slap a pedo, but not someone who's happen to be gay.
Clean-up crew needed, grammar spill... - Nagy Vilmos
Marco Bertschi wrote:
And as I said elsewhere, I think sexual education shall be done at an appropriate age, and by the parents.
As a father of a nine year old boy, I'm no longer sure about that. My son will learn about Ess-Eee-Ex in school this year and I've come to the conclusion that that might be better. The problem is, some parents may choose not to teach, while others may explain things differently. Kids will definitely talk about it in school and I'd rather they all get the same information from the same source at the same time. Waiting for the end of this school year to cross that bridge.
Marco Bertschi wrote:
Pedos and gays are not the same, and for this reason I happily help you slap a pedo, but not someone who's happen to be gay.
I agree. Go find a NAMBLA member to slap. That's twice they've mentioned them casually on The Simpsons.
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Marco Bertschi wrote:
And as I said elsewhere, I think sexual education shall be done at an appropriate age, and by the parents.
As a father of a nine year old boy, I'm no longer sure about that. My son will learn about Ess-Eee-Ex in school this year and I've come to the conclusion that that might be better. The problem is, some parents may choose not to teach, while others may explain things differently. Kids will definitely talk about it in school and I'd rather they all get the same information from the same source at the same time. Waiting for the end of this school year to cross that bridge.
Marco Bertschi wrote:
Pedos and gays are not the same, and for this reason I happily help you slap a pedo, but not someone who's happen to be gay.
I agree. Go find a NAMBLA member to slap. That's twice they've mentioned them casually on The Simpsons.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
As a father of a nine year old boy, I'm no longer sure about that. My son will learn about Ess-Eee-Ex in school this year and I've come to the conclusion that that might be better. The problem is, some parents may choose not to teach, while others may explain things differently. Kids will definitely talk about it in school and I'd rather they all get the same information from the same source at the same time. Waiting for the end of this school year to cross that bridge.
I agree, but only if the ed is appropriate for the kids age. It is sometimes surprising how prude parents f*ck this up.
Clean-up crew needed, grammar spill... - Nagy Vilmos
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Richard Deeming wrote:
Way to turn the prejudice around - from "I hate f*gs" to "why do f*gs hate me".
Way to turn my argument about being left alone into a prejudice about turning another prejudice around. These are the arguments that people use to deflect what they don't want to hear. X|
Richard Deeming wrote:
How many heterophobic people have you encountered? How many stories have you read about gangs of homosexuals going round beating up anyone they thinks isn't gay? I'm going to guess at "none".
If you're going to bring up a separate argument into my point of discussion, then I blame global warming for creating gays. BTW, "none" implies some while "some" implies none or all.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Way to turn my argument about being left alone into a prejudice about turning another prejudice around.
I see. So you came to a thread about Russia's homophobic laws to make an entirely separate point about wanting the gays to leave you alone and stop trying to make you gay?
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
If you're going to bring up a separate argument into my point of discussion
And suddenly, pointing out that nobody's trying to make you gay, and nobody's persecuting you for not being gay, is not related to your argument?
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
BTW, "none" implies some while "some" implies none or all.
What?! Did you skip Basic Logic 101? :wtf: "None" implies "none". "Some" implies "some or all". It's not difficult. But then, I guess you're too busy fighting off the rampant homosexuals who are all trying to make you like c*ck to pay attention to irrelevant things like "facts" and "logic".
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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Every prejudice that isn't yours would be wrong in your opinion. That is not the point. The fact is, mother/father relationships are normal because that's where children come from - their mom and dad. Race has nothing to do with this. The fact is, boys usually emulate dad and girls emulate mom. Considering how many unwanted kids (kids given up for adoption) we have and all that, the normal family structure has completely eroded. In a perfect world, rape would be eliminated and children born out of wedlock would no longer happen. Then mom and dad can bring up their kids the way they want them to. You wish to be gay? Fine! You wish to raise your child gay? Fine! But don't tell me I can't raise my son to believe that being gay is not wrong since I will be teaching him to be straight and that cannot coexist with being gay.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Every prejudice that isn't yours would be wrong in your opinion. That is not the point.
But it's ok to inflict one group of prejudices on other people? Make it illegal to talk about something they think is wrong. No one's prejudices should be law(s).
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chriselst wrote:
So childless relationships between men and women are wrong and not normal then?
A implies B does not mean B implies A. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other and using an openning argument like that shows a failure in understanding.
chriselst wrote:
I'm not sure that's a fact, I doubt it is true at all.
That's absolutely true. Since my son was born, I've seen how he emulates me mostly and other boys. This is a fact. If you had a son you would see that every single day.
chriselst wrote:
How on earth do you raise someone gay?
Who would you tell your child to date? If you're gay, you'd tell they they can date anyone. If you're straight, you'd tell them to date the opposite sex. You don't have kids, do you?
chriselst wrote:
You can tell your son whatever you want to, and with any luck he'll grow up to make his own mind up about things rather than hang on every word you've ever told him.
That's true. And how you raise them greatly affects how they will grow up. Or is this not a fact either?
chriselst wrote:
Again, how the hell can you teach someone to be straight
Same as above.
chriselst wrote:
Your son will be whoever and whatever he turns out to be. I hope for the sake of both of you that you can cope with what that is, because it is unlikely to be exactly what you have planned for him.
Hopefully, he'll be more influenced by family and friends than by television as well as grow up to make all the right choices.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Since my son was born, I've seen how he emulates me mostly and other boys. This is a fact.
True, sure. Fact... only about YOUR situation, not every situation.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
If you're gay, you'd tell they they can date anyone. If you're straight, you'd tell them to date the opposite sex.
This may be true among some people (probably prejudice). However, it is not true among all parents. Most parents, including myself, would say the former. As far as parenting goes, your job is to educate the child and let them make their own decisions. You shouldn't try and decide who your child is going to be, and you should try not to inflict your own prejudices on them. I know that it's not possible to keep all your prejudices from influencing them, but we should try our best. Ever seen American History X ?
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
And how you raise them greatly affects how they will grow up. Or is this not a fact either?
That is a fact, and that is why it's important to be careful.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Way to turn my argument about being left alone into a prejudice about turning another prejudice around.
I see. So you came to a thread about Russia's homophobic laws to make an entirely separate point about wanting the gays to leave you alone and stop trying to make you gay?
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
If you're going to bring up a separate argument into my point of discussion
And suddenly, pointing out that nobody's trying to make you gay, and nobody's persecuting you for not being gay, is not related to your argument?
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
BTW, "none" implies some while "some" implies none or all.
What?! Did you skip Basic Logic 101? :wtf: "None" implies "none". "Some" implies "some or all". It's not difficult. But then, I guess you're too busy fighting off the rampant homosexuals who are all trying to make you like c*ck to pay attention to irrelevant things like "facts" and "logic".
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
Richard Deeming wrote:
I see. So you came to a thread about Russia's homophobic laws to make an entirely separate point about wanting the gays to leave you alone and stop trying to make you gay?
I said I agreed that people should be left alone, but it works both ways. The fact that you repeated the same argument was moot.
Richard Deeming wrote:
What?! Did you skip Basic Logic 101?
I took them in jest to mean air quotes. "None" implies "none" is true. But "none" with air quotes does not imply none without them. Hence my comment.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
As a father of a nine year old boy, I'm no longer sure about that. My son will learn about Ess-Eee-Ex in school this year and I've come to the conclusion that that might be better. The problem is, some parents may choose not to teach, while others may explain things differently. Kids will definitely talk about it in school and I'd rather they all get the same information from the same source at the same time. Waiting for the end of this school year to cross that bridge.
I agree, but only if the ed is appropriate for the kids age. It is sometimes surprising how prude parents f*ck this up.
Clean-up crew needed, grammar spill... - Nagy Vilmos
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Every prejudice that isn't yours would be wrong in your opinion. That is not the point.
But it's ok to inflict one group of prejudices on other people? Make it illegal to talk about something they think is wrong. No one's prejudices should be law(s).
No. But if you read all my other comments and examples, you'll see that you can't teach both sides at the same time. And by teach, I mean show on TV, discuss in school, put in government forms. Ergo, one side will be more dominantly portrayed than the other. And the straight side seems to be the losing side these days.
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Seriously, do you not watch TV in the US? But lets look at a few other examples. Government sex fields are no longer male/female only. There's about 10 or 12 fields including cross-dressers. Surprised the hell out of me. The government was going to change passport and other application forms to say parent 1 and 2 instead of mother and father on all official forms. Apparently, one side got upset that it's biased in one side and they don't want a separate form. Family trees in school are now based on who's living with whom as opposed to who's genes you have. There's a lot more other things that strongly suggest that father/mother relationships are not to be taught as fact anymore, but are one of several options. Promoting gayness is done by making straightness an option.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Since my son was born, I've seen how he emulates me mostly and other boys. This is a fact.
True, sure. Fact... only about YOUR situation, not every situation.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
If you're gay, you'd tell they they can date anyone. If you're straight, you'd tell them to date the opposite sex.
This may be true among some people (probably prejudice). However, it is not true among all parents. Most parents, including myself, would say the former. As far as parenting goes, your job is to educate the child and let them make their own decisions. You shouldn't try and decide who your child is going to be, and you should try not to inflict your own prejudices on them. I know that it's not possible to keep all your prejudices from influencing them, but we should try our best. Ever seen American History X ?
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
And how you raise them greatly affects how they will grow up. Or is this not a fact either?
That is a fact, and that is why it's important to be careful.
Im_no_troll wrote:
True, sure. Fact... only about YOUR situation, not every situation.
Bullshit! EVERY kids I've seen has emulated their same sex parent in one way or the other. I've seen it in my dozen nephews and cousins. Hell, I even see it in myself. Manerisms and all that are picked up by kids.
Im_no_troll wrote:
This may be true among some people (probably prejudice). However, it is not true among all parents. Most parents, including myself, would say the former.
Obviously the case for all is impossible one. But I would say with a high certainty that most parents want their kids to be like them in many ways. And that only enforces my point.
Im_no_troll wrote:
That is a fact, and that is why it's important to be careful.
There's nothing wrong with raising your kid straight and with good values.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Promoting gayness is done by making straightness an option.
lol? did you read that before yoyu clicked submit?
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chriselst wrote:
It is absolutely true because you have observed one example. Nice sampling.
That was one example. Every boy that I've seen growing up emulated their father in one way or other. I have many nephews and cousins who are younger.
chriselst wrote:
Although you then contradict yourself, admitting he is emulating others too.
How is that a contradiction? Kids will eventually learn from other kids. But before they go out and meet kids in school or even daycare, they start learning from and emulating their parents.
chriselst wrote:
Utter bollocks.
If you're a prejudiced throwback who cannot accept the real world then you tell them who to date and try to control their life. It has nothing to do with being gay or being straight.So the real world is letting them choose whatever they want with no input from you? The fact that you guide them does not mean you control them. No opinion in how they live is just as bad as controlling every aspect of it.
chriselst wrote:
I have not decided how she will lead her life, that is up to her. All I can do is give her all the information she needs to make her own informed choices and try to teach her to be kind to others.
I am not expecting you, nor me, to lead their lives for them. However, we are expected to guide them. Telling your daughter she can date whoever she wants at a young age is basically telling her she doesn't have to be straight. Ergo, you can be gay.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
But before they go out and meet kids in school or even daycare, they start learning from and emulating their parents.
The point is your sample set is too small to make a conclusive stance. I have 2 kids. A son and a daughter. My son will emulate me and my daughter emulates my wife. However, my daughter will also emulate me and my son will also emulate my wife. They also emulate each other and neighborhood kids. Sex of the child has little to do with it. It is more about who they are and what interests them. For example, my daughter does enjoy many masculine games and toys, but she also likes her Hello Kitty doll, Horse, and having tea parties. My son does not prefer to have tea parties but he certainly will have some with his sister sometimes because he enjoys playing with her. They play whatever they want and emulate whoever they want. As they get older they date who they want. Even in the case of hetero-sexual relationships a parent does say "No you can not date them". Is it always successful? I would say more often than not, the child just dates whom they want behind the parents back.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet. The interesting thing about software is it can not reproduce, until it can.
