How does the programming language effect the development "ethos"?
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I find this to be the case as well. It's just some things go hand-in-hand. One thing I'd add to the pot is some hard core C hacker types that swear OOP is overrated and most of it can be achieved in C... blah blah blah. Don't get me wrong, C is still my favorite language, but... blah blah blah ya know. The classic VB crowd (still freaking exists!!!) pretty much goes like "we don't like studying but want to pretend we're developers" or "our clients want us to use it" or "we got more important things to do than learn how to do our job"... blah blah blah. These guys also wouldn't know what a unit test is or a design pattern or a decent UI. But they say they do! Just like how typically most PHP developers tend to use MySQL over SQL Server.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
One thing I'd add to the pot is some hard core C hacker types that swear OOP is overrated and most all of it can be achieved in C
FFY :-D
Veni, vidi, vici.
Believe it or not, the thing I miss the most when in C isn't classes, it's namespaces.
Jeremy Falcon
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Believe it or not, the thing I miss the most when in C isn't classes, it's namespaces.
Jeremy Falcon
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For example, taking a stab here, if I work in Ruby on Rails, everyone uses GitHub, TTD, Agile to the extreme (ie, short stories, sprints, etc.), lots of refactoring, little overall thought to architecture and maintainability, minimal or no code documentation, and so forth. If I work in C#, probably TFS, probably less emphasis on TDD, possibly more up-front design, less Agile principles, possibly more "milestone" oriented, code reviews rather than peer programming, etc. What's your experience, especially if you're working just in Javascript (for example, node.js), or other languages (Python, VB, C++, and so forth.) Marc
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For example, taking a stab here, if I work in Ruby on Rails, everyone uses GitHub, TTD, Agile to the extreme (ie, short stories, sprints, etc.), lots of refactoring, little overall thought to architecture and maintainability, minimal or no code documentation, and so forth. If I work in C#, probably TFS, probably less emphasis on TDD, possibly more up-front design, less Agile principles, possibly more "milestone" oriented, code reviews rather than peer programming, etc. What's your experience, especially if you're working just in Javascript (for example, node.js), or other languages (Python, VB, C++, and so forth.) Marc
I find that every place is different, not depending on the language but depending on the "leaders". In this context a leader may be the dev manager, or may just be a developer with a will, but it is they who are the ones who move teams toward different tools and methods. And those leaders using C# are more likely to be corporate tie-wearing Microphiles than the Ruby crowd, who are more likely top be open-source addicts with the attention span of an Oh! Shiny. (I generalise)
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For example, taking a stab here, if I work in Ruby on Rails, everyone uses GitHub, TTD, Agile to the extreme (ie, short stories, sprints, etc.), lots of refactoring, little overall thought to architecture and maintainability, minimal or no code documentation, and so forth. If I work in C#, probably TFS, probably less emphasis on TDD, possibly more up-front design, less Agile principles, possibly more "milestone" oriented, code reviews rather than peer programming, etc. What's your experience, especially if you're working just in Javascript (for example, node.js), or other languages (Python, VB, C++, and so forth.) Marc
The language chosen for a project is part of a whole batch of decisions, which typically go together. So it's not a case of the language affecting the ethos, but being part of it. There's also the mainstream vs niche separation; people working outside the mainstream are more likely to use quirky or new development methodologies, and some of those make it to be the 'next big thing' like Git and agile. Languages do push you down a particular road at a lower level, for example a Java project is guaranteed to be OO and framework-heavy, while a Haskell one will be written functionally and a C one is likely to be procedural and probably message-based. You can push against that but it's usually clear what the natural pattern is.
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Believe it or not, the thing I miss the most when in C isn't classes, it's namespaces.
Jeremy Falcon
Well, namespaces are C++ not C.
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The language chosen for a project is part of a whole batch of decisions, which typically go together. So it's not a case of the language affecting the ethos, but being part of it. There's also the mainstream vs niche separation; people working outside the mainstream are more likely to use quirky or new development methodologies, and some of those make it to be the 'next big thing' like Git and agile. Languages do push you down a particular road at a lower level, for example a Java project is guaranteed to be OO and framework-heavy, while a Haskell one will be written functionally and a C one is likely to be procedural and probably message-based. You can push against that but it's usually clear what the natural pattern is.
BobJanova wrote:
So it's not a case of the language affecting the ethos, but being part of it.
Ah! That resonates with me. I definitely have seen how a particular group that gathers because of a shared mindset will choose a particular language and toolset. Interesting! Marc
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Well, namespaces are C++ not C.
No duh.
Jeremy Falcon
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I find this to be the case as well. It's just some things go hand-in-hand. One thing I'd add to the pot is some hard core C hacker types that swear OOP is overrated and most of it can be achieved in C... blah blah blah. Don't get me wrong, C is still my favorite language, but... blah blah blah ya know. The classic VB crowd (still freaking exists!!!) pretty much goes like "we don't like studying but want to pretend we're developers" or "our clients want us to use it" or "we got more important things to do than learn how to do our job"... blah blah blah. These guys also wouldn't know what a unit test is or a design pattern or a decent UI. But they say they do! Just like how typically most PHP developers tend to use MySQL over SQL Server.
Jeremy Falcon
by classic VB developers do you mean vb6? (not a vb6 developer anymore) If so, I think I would be excluded because I had to learn about unit tests in my system analysis and design class (actually twice because I took a 300-400 level course on the same subject too). So I would be that person that would prefer to plan my whole project out before proceeding. For big projects, I like using Visio but prefer by default seperating my UI code from dll or logic code. I like dll code in VB.NET because it is reusable and I can change and re-test a function for compatibility with the rest of the code or system. For one open source project, I developed all the documents myself that made up the blueprint for my application or program. Another point to add to C is how kernel code in windows is ugly. For example, my last project relied on DSF from the Microsoft driver toolkit and I had to rely on the generic hid example (ugliest C/C++ code I've seen in my life and poor documentation!). I think that the notion that the computer is disappearing with C code would be incorrect too. It should be the computer is getting smaller anyone see the mini-towers? I could almost fit one in my pocket depending on the device. I believe the best way to put C or Classic VB (VB 7 or below?) development is that they are both like politicians you need them at certain times but it's best to avoid if it's not necessary to use them. This excludes any objective C developers but even objective C has its points where it gets ugly.
jeffery
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The language chosen for a project is part of a whole batch of decisions, which typically go together. So it's not a case of the language affecting the ethos, but being part of it. There's also the mainstream vs niche separation; people working outside the mainstream are more likely to use quirky or new development methodologies, and some of those make it to be the 'next big thing' like Git and agile. Languages do push you down a particular road at a lower level, for example a Java project is guaranteed to be OO and framework-heavy, while a Haskell one will be written functionally and a C one is likely to be procedural and probably message-based. You can push against that but it's usually clear what the natural pattern is.
This is pretty much what I was going to say. I can't seem to upvote things anymore, so I'm replying instead. I'll also say that, as a contractor, I use whatever tools and methodologies my customer wants. Since I work in the games industry though, that pretty much means C++, Perforce, Milestones, light on engineering, and definitely unconcerned with maintainability. (I do try to be better than average on those last two, though.)
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by classic VB developers do you mean vb6? (not a vb6 developer anymore) If so, I think I would be excluded because I had to learn about unit tests in my system analysis and design class (actually twice because I took a 300-400 level course on the same subject too). So I would be that person that would prefer to plan my whole project out before proceeding. For big projects, I like using Visio but prefer by default seperating my UI code from dll or logic code. I like dll code in VB.NET because it is reusable and I can change and re-test a function for compatibility with the rest of the code or system. For one open source project, I developed all the documents myself that made up the blueprint for my application or program. Another point to add to C is how kernel code in windows is ugly. For example, my last project relied on DSF from the Microsoft driver toolkit and I had to rely on the generic hid example (ugliest C/C++ code I've seen in my life and poor documentation!). I think that the notion that the computer is disappearing with C code would be incorrect too. It should be the computer is getting smaller anyone see the mini-towers? I could almost fit one in my pocket depending on the device. I believe the best way to put C or Classic VB (VB 7 or below?) development is that they are both like politicians you need them at certain times but it's best to avoid if it's not necessary to use them. This excludes any objective C developers but even objective C has its points where it gets ugly.
jeffery
jeffery c wrote:
by classic VB developers do you mean vb6?
Yup, basically pre-.NET is considered classic VB.
jeffery c wrote:
If so, I think I would be excluded because I had to learn about unit tests in my system analysis and design class
Then you're the exception. Ironically I have nothing against VB. It's just a tool. However, working in the industry for 20 years has shown me that the most people that use VB fit in the mold I mentioned. So consider yourself different if you study design, and that's a good thing.
jeffery c wrote:
Another point to add to C is how kernel code in windows is ugly.
That's my biggest peeve with C and C++ even. Even in C++ the STL is just ugly. It's a fantastic language, but damn when you look at when compared to languages like C# you have to wonder. C is still my favorite though, there's a few hacks that can be done to make the code look better, so I can live with it.
jeffery c wrote:
I could almost fit one in my pocket depending on the device.
They're only getting smaller man. In science and in computing small is the new big for now.
Jeremy Falcon
