I hate "KISS"
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Because this is so... subjective!!! Right now at work some people hates me because I routinely replace 20 lines of jQuery (allegedly simple) with 1 Knockout statement (allegedly complicated). [Edit] to make it clear, I am NOT rewriting any existing code. I am talking of new code, which I prefer to write with a short and side effect free knockout statement instead of the (usual) pile of jQuery event and DOM creation method. Hey it's true, they look at it dumbfounded and say "it's unmaintainable" so the average programmer can't fix it, indeed! Now I am in a quandary, I convinced the client to implement a quite dynamic almost SPA couple of pages, with almost 1000 lines of TypeScript and 600 lines of HTML and knockout (with binding and template). To make it "more simple" I will have to balloon the code size to I dunno how much and spend zillion of hours debugging jQuery event handling and DOM creation spaghetti!!! :mad: (To the point, I don't think I can make it with just jQuery, I have to give up.... it's more dynamic than Facebook for god sake! maybe I exaggerate, but I like to think so! ;P) Well this is the maintenance team which complains about it, my project manager says to forget about it and continue using knockout when appropriate (which my team mates are slowly starting to love too) Now I get sprouted some vague insult... awful code.. you are so selfish and pretentious... why can't you follow KISS and SOLID principle insult every now and then! Very tiresome! While there is no more deaf than those that don't want to listen and I know it's a lost cause.. I still wonder about it... What I sell to the customer, is not just humanely doable in a reasonable time frame with just jQuery. Yet using Knockout I make it... "excessively complex" for some... (other developer) Mmmm... just wondering what to think of it... [EDIT2] I guess I am looking for a nice repartee to use in the conversation. Which is both convincing and easy to understand! ;P Something like they sprout me SOLID, KISS, I coolly reply this is way more KISS than your KISS version! (which I can't say, because their mere ignorance is proof that my code is not KISS :~ ) [Edit3] To give you an illustration, some people were confused when I started to use lambda expression... (or maybe generic?) (I think I started to get a bad rep for overengineering when I was using these strange things)
My programming get away... The Blog...[](</x-turndown)
There are no 20 lines of code that are simpler than 1 line of code (assume that it fits in 80 characters margin), unless 15 of those lines are comment. The idea of dynamic languages is the model, not the structure. If you want a structure, you can stick with java - there zero lines of actual code require at least 20 lines. In dynamic languages the complexity of the task/model (which should be understood if you try to understand the code) is directly related to how much lines you use - less lines = much simpler (but that does not apply to unformatted code).
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Because this is so... subjective!!! Right now at work some people hates me because I routinely replace 20 lines of jQuery (allegedly simple) with 1 Knockout statement (allegedly complicated). [Edit] to make it clear, I am NOT rewriting any existing code. I am talking of new code, which I prefer to write with a short and side effect free knockout statement instead of the (usual) pile of jQuery event and DOM creation method. Hey it's true, they look at it dumbfounded and say "it's unmaintainable" so the average programmer can't fix it, indeed! Now I am in a quandary, I convinced the client to implement a quite dynamic almost SPA couple of pages, with almost 1000 lines of TypeScript and 600 lines of HTML and knockout (with binding and template). To make it "more simple" I will have to balloon the code size to I dunno how much and spend zillion of hours debugging jQuery event handling and DOM creation spaghetti!!! :mad: (To the point, I don't think I can make it with just jQuery, I have to give up.... it's more dynamic than Facebook for god sake! maybe I exaggerate, but I like to think so! ;P) Well this is the maintenance team which complains about it, my project manager says to forget about it and continue using knockout when appropriate (which my team mates are slowly starting to love too) Now I get sprouted some vague insult... awful code.. you are so selfish and pretentious... why can't you follow KISS and SOLID principle insult every now and then! Very tiresome! While there is no more deaf than those that don't want to listen and I know it's a lost cause.. I still wonder about it... What I sell to the customer, is not just humanely doable in a reasonable time frame with just jQuery. Yet using Knockout I make it... "excessively complex" for some... (other developer) Mmmm... just wondering what to think of it... [EDIT2] I guess I am looking for a nice repartee to use in the conversation. Which is both convincing and easy to understand! ;P Something like they sprout me SOLID, KISS, I coolly reply this is way more KISS than your KISS version! (which I can't say, because their mere ignorance is proof that my code is not KISS :~ ) [Edit3] To give you an illustration, some people were confused when I started to use lambda expression... (or maybe generic?) (I think I started to get a bad rep for overengineering when I was using these strange things)
My programming get away... The Blog...[](</x-turndown)
When I started my first programming job the team were using legacy C libraries from another company that were old, clunky, terrible to use, full of bugs and required a lot of typing. When creating new programs they copied forward an existing one that did most of what they wanted to do and added a load more code, commenting out any bits they didn't need just in case when it copied forward again the original code would be in there. It was a bit of a mess! I learned their libraries inside out, but instead of saying, all your code is awful why don't you do X, I set about rewriting them a tiny bit at a time and slipping the code into the programs; at first people didn't really get it but after a while (and it was a while) they realised ways of doing things had the same/better resulst and took less typing and started doing it in the different way. Some people don't like change and will cling on to old methodologies and code because it's either what they know and can do, they don't want to put the effort in to learn anything new, that or they think you are usurping them in some way and if they "allow" you to "update" things it implies they were crap in the first place for not doing that ages ago. I'd recommend starting very small or moving to a department/company that likes moving things forward at a faster rate. tldr;
I'll let future me worry about this.
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Because this is so... subjective!!! Right now at work some people hates me because I routinely replace 20 lines of jQuery (allegedly simple) with 1 Knockout statement (allegedly complicated). [Edit] to make it clear, I am NOT rewriting any existing code. I am talking of new code, which I prefer to write with a short and side effect free knockout statement instead of the (usual) pile of jQuery event and DOM creation method. Hey it's true, they look at it dumbfounded and say "it's unmaintainable" so the average programmer can't fix it, indeed! Now I am in a quandary, I convinced the client to implement a quite dynamic almost SPA couple of pages, with almost 1000 lines of TypeScript and 600 lines of HTML and knockout (with binding and template). To make it "more simple" I will have to balloon the code size to I dunno how much and spend zillion of hours debugging jQuery event handling and DOM creation spaghetti!!! :mad: (To the point, I don't think I can make it with just jQuery, I have to give up.... it's more dynamic than Facebook for god sake! maybe I exaggerate, but I like to think so! ;P) Well this is the maintenance team which complains about it, my project manager says to forget about it and continue using knockout when appropriate (which my team mates are slowly starting to love too) Now I get sprouted some vague insult... awful code.. you are so selfish and pretentious... why can't you follow KISS and SOLID principle insult every now and then! Very tiresome! While there is no more deaf than those that don't want to listen and I know it's a lost cause.. I still wonder about it... What I sell to the customer, is not just humanely doable in a reasonable time frame with just jQuery. Yet using Knockout I make it... "excessively complex" for some... (other developer) Mmmm... just wondering what to think of it... [EDIT2] I guess I am looking for a nice repartee to use in the conversation. Which is both convincing and easy to understand! ;P Something like they sprout me SOLID, KISS, I coolly reply this is way more KISS than your KISS version! (which I can't say, because their mere ignorance is proof that my code is not KISS :~ ) [Edit3] To give you an illustration, some people were confused when I started to use lambda expression... (or maybe generic?) (I think I started to get a bad rep for overengineering when I was using these strange things)
My programming get away... The Blog...[](</x-turndown)
It sounds like what your company really needs are regular technical sessions whereby any developer can do a quick demo of a particular technology or framework that they think is useful. Getting all the developers together with a 10-15 demo showing what Knockout can do, how it reduces the amount of code you have to write, how easy it is to make things work, and how it would make future maintenance much easier would get any professional developer on board. If it doesn't, I'd start looking for another job.
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Because this is so... subjective!!! Right now at work some people hates me because I routinely replace 20 lines of jQuery (allegedly simple) with 1 Knockout statement (allegedly complicated). [Edit] to make it clear, I am NOT rewriting any existing code. I am talking of new code, which I prefer to write with a short and side effect free knockout statement instead of the (usual) pile of jQuery event and DOM creation method. Hey it's true, they look at it dumbfounded and say "it's unmaintainable" so the average programmer can't fix it, indeed! Now I am in a quandary, I convinced the client to implement a quite dynamic almost SPA couple of pages, with almost 1000 lines of TypeScript and 600 lines of HTML and knockout (with binding and template). To make it "more simple" I will have to balloon the code size to I dunno how much and spend zillion of hours debugging jQuery event handling and DOM creation spaghetti!!! :mad: (To the point, I don't think I can make it with just jQuery, I have to give up.... it's more dynamic than Facebook for god sake! maybe I exaggerate, but I like to think so! ;P) Well this is the maintenance team which complains about it, my project manager says to forget about it and continue using knockout when appropriate (which my team mates are slowly starting to love too) Now I get sprouted some vague insult... awful code.. you are so selfish and pretentious... why can't you follow KISS and SOLID principle insult every now and then! Very tiresome! While there is no more deaf than those that don't want to listen and I know it's a lost cause.. I still wonder about it... What I sell to the customer, is not just humanely doable in a reasonable time frame with just jQuery. Yet using Knockout I make it... "excessively complex" for some... (other developer) Mmmm... just wondering what to think of it... [EDIT2] I guess I am looking for a nice repartee to use in the conversation. Which is both convincing and easy to understand! ;P Something like they sprout me SOLID, KISS, I coolly reply this is way more KISS than your KISS version! (which I can't say, because their mere ignorance is proof that my code is not KISS :~ ) [Edit3] To give you an illustration, some people were confused when I started to use lambda expression... (or maybe generic?) (I think I started to get a bad rep for overengineering when I was using these strange things)
My programming get away... The Blog...[](</x-turndown)
One line of framework code is not necessarily simpler than 20 lines of lower level code if people don't understand the framework, if the framework is complex or a maintenance headache in itself, or if the framework doesn't naturally fit the problem and you end up with 30 extra lines elsewhere to work around it or set it up. Simplicity is not just a measure of code size, it's a measure of understandability, and if a seemingly simple framework call is doing a lot of stuff that people don't understand, it isn't simple. (To use a different example, .Net Task spawning code looks really simple. new Task(lambda).Start(), what could be hard about that? But to understand that one line, you need to understand threading, thread pools, synchronisation/locking concerns, marshalling UI calls to the UI thread and so on, and if you don't, it is harder to maintain Tasks code than it would be to maintain the longer but more explicit manual thread management code.) Those things may not be true in your situation with Knockout.js, although the first one clearly is, but it is the responsibility of the person who wants to bring a new framework to a project to introduce it to the team and make sure that it really does make the team's life better, not just yours. You mention lambdas and generics in your edit. I've been 'that guy', particularly with generics – but I won the argument because I could explain why the generic code was simpler and that it was worth the investment to learn.
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It sounds like what your company really needs are regular technical sessions whereby any developer can do a quick demo of a particular technology or framework that they think is useful. Getting all the developers together with a 10-15 demo showing what Knockout can do, how it reduces the amount of code you have to write, how easy it is to make things work, and how it would make future maintenance much easier would get any professional developer on board. If it doesn't, I'd start looking for another job.
This sounds like a good idea! Although this won't really work in our case. I work at a consulting company (the best one I have been at so far! :-D ) so we are all dispatched to different client and do not really work together! Although some developer did mention they would like some technical meeting like that to happen... I wonder...
My programming get away... The Blog... DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
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One line of framework code is not necessarily simpler than 20 lines of lower level code if people don't understand the framework, if the framework is complex or a maintenance headache in itself, or if the framework doesn't naturally fit the problem and you end up with 30 extra lines elsewhere to work around it or set it up. Simplicity is not just a measure of code size, it's a measure of understandability, and if a seemingly simple framework call is doing a lot of stuff that people don't understand, it isn't simple. (To use a different example, .Net Task spawning code looks really simple. new Task(lambda).Start(), what could be hard about that? But to understand that one line, you need to understand threading, thread pools, synchronisation/locking concerns, marshalling UI calls to the UI thread and so on, and if you don't, it is harder to maintain Tasks code than it would be to maintain the longer but more explicit manual thread management code.) Those things may not be true in your situation with Knockout.js, although the first one clearly is, but it is the responsibility of the person who wants to bring a new framework to a project to introduce it to the team and make sure that it really does make the team's life better, not just yours. You mention lambdas and generics in your edit. I've been 'that guy', particularly with generics – but I won the argument because I could explain why the generic code was simpler and that it was worth the investment to learn.
You make a good argument ... But it doesn't quite apply in my case. I don't even work with this maintenance team. Have no regular work-tech meeting with them. They just had a look once at the repository. When I meet them informally, say for lunch, I hear a lot of complaints... I even say let's "sit together" but guess what? "there is no time"! As for the people I work for? They are all converted by now!
My programming get away... The Blog... DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
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You make a good argument ... But it doesn't quite apply in my case. I don't even work with this maintenance team. Have no regular work-tech meeting with them. They just had a look once at the repository. When I meet them informally, say for lunch, I hear a lot of complaints... I even say let's "sit together" but guess what? "there is no time"! As for the people I work for? They are all converted by now!
My programming get away... The Blog... DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
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Because this is so... subjective!!! Right now at work some people hates me because I routinely replace 20 lines of jQuery (allegedly simple) with 1 Knockout statement (allegedly complicated). [Edit] to make it clear, I am NOT rewriting any existing code. I am talking of new code, which I prefer to write with a short and side effect free knockout statement instead of the (usual) pile of jQuery event and DOM creation method. Hey it's true, they look at it dumbfounded and say "it's unmaintainable" so the average programmer can't fix it, indeed! Now I am in a quandary, I convinced the client to implement a quite dynamic almost SPA couple of pages, with almost 1000 lines of TypeScript and 600 lines of HTML and knockout (with binding and template). To make it "more simple" I will have to balloon the code size to I dunno how much and spend zillion of hours debugging jQuery event handling and DOM creation spaghetti!!! :mad: (To the point, I don't think I can make it with just jQuery, I have to give up.... it's more dynamic than Facebook for god sake! maybe I exaggerate, but I like to think so! ;P) Well this is the maintenance team which complains about it, my project manager says to forget about it and continue using knockout when appropriate (which my team mates are slowly starting to love too) Now I get sprouted some vague insult... awful code.. you are so selfish and pretentious... why can't you follow KISS and SOLID principle insult every now and then! Very tiresome! While there is no more deaf than those that don't want to listen and I know it's a lost cause.. I still wonder about it... What I sell to the customer, is not just humanely doable in a reasonable time frame with just jQuery. Yet using Knockout I make it... "excessively complex" for some... (other developer) Mmmm... just wondering what to think of it... [EDIT2] I guess I am looking for a nice repartee to use in the conversation. Which is both convincing and easy to understand! ;P Something like they sprout me SOLID, KISS, I coolly reply this is way more KISS than your KISS version! (which I can't say, because their mere ignorance is proof that my code is not KISS :~ ) [Edit3] To give you an illustration, some people were confused when I started to use lambda expression... (or maybe generic?) (I think I started to get a bad rep for overengineering when I was using these strange things)
My programming get away... The Blog...[](</x-turndown)
Part of working successfully as part of a team is consideration for others. If you're not able to calmly and logically persuade them to your point of you then I am afraid you will have to swim with the tide. Regardless of who is 'right' or 'wrong' or how much it costs for either party.
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Part of working successfully as part of a team is consideration for others. If you're not able to calmly and logically persuade them to your point of you then I am afraid you will have to swim with the tide. Regardless of who is 'right' or 'wrong' or how much it costs for either party.
Well this is difficult in this case. I am not hit by my team mate. But by some remote team who had a look at the source code and with which I can't talk! I already asked them: "let's sit together and 'fix' the code" but... "there is no time"
My programming get away... The Blog... DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
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Because this is so... subjective!!! Right now at work some people hates me because I routinely replace 20 lines of jQuery (allegedly simple) with 1 Knockout statement (allegedly complicated). [Edit] to make it clear, I am NOT rewriting any existing code. I am talking of new code, which I prefer to write with a short and side effect free knockout statement instead of the (usual) pile of jQuery event and DOM creation method. Hey it's true, they look at it dumbfounded and say "it's unmaintainable" so the average programmer can't fix it, indeed! Now I am in a quandary, I convinced the client to implement a quite dynamic almost SPA couple of pages, with almost 1000 lines of TypeScript and 600 lines of HTML and knockout (with binding and template). To make it "more simple" I will have to balloon the code size to I dunno how much and spend zillion of hours debugging jQuery event handling and DOM creation spaghetti!!! :mad: (To the point, I don't think I can make it with just jQuery, I have to give up.... it's more dynamic than Facebook for god sake! maybe I exaggerate, but I like to think so! ;P) Well this is the maintenance team which complains about it, my project manager says to forget about it and continue using knockout when appropriate (which my team mates are slowly starting to love too) Now I get sprouted some vague insult... awful code.. you are so selfish and pretentious... why can't you follow KISS and SOLID principle insult every now and then! Very tiresome! While there is no more deaf than those that don't want to listen and I know it's a lost cause.. I still wonder about it... What I sell to the customer, is not just humanely doable in a reasonable time frame with just jQuery. Yet using Knockout I make it... "excessively complex" for some... (other developer) Mmmm... just wondering what to think of it... [EDIT2] I guess I am looking for a nice repartee to use in the conversation. Which is both convincing and easy to understand! ;P Something like they sprout me SOLID, KISS, I coolly reply this is way more KISS than your KISS version! (which I can't say, because their mere ignorance is proof that my code is not KISS :~ ) [Edit3] To give you an illustration, some people were confused when I started to use lambda expression... (or maybe generic?) (I think I started to get a bad rep for overengineering when I was using these strange things)
My programming get away... The Blog...[](</x-turndown)
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Because this is so... subjective!!! Right now at work some people hates me because I routinely replace 20 lines of jQuery (allegedly simple) with 1 Knockout statement (allegedly complicated). [Edit] to make it clear, I am NOT rewriting any existing code. I am talking of new code, which I prefer to write with a short and side effect free knockout statement instead of the (usual) pile of jQuery event and DOM creation method. Hey it's true, they look at it dumbfounded and say "it's unmaintainable" so the average programmer can't fix it, indeed! Now I am in a quandary, I convinced the client to implement a quite dynamic almost SPA couple of pages, with almost 1000 lines of TypeScript and 600 lines of HTML and knockout (with binding and template). To make it "more simple" I will have to balloon the code size to I dunno how much and spend zillion of hours debugging jQuery event handling and DOM creation spaghetti!!! :mad: (To the point, I don't think I can make it with just jQuery, I have to give up.... it's more dynamic than Facebook for god sake! maybe I exaggerate, but I like to think so! ;P) Well this is the maintenance team which complains about it, my project manager says to forget about it and continue using knockout when appropriate (which my team mates are slowly starting to love too) Now I get sprouted some vague insult... awful code.. you are so selfish and pretentious... why can't you follow KISS and SOLID principle insult every now and then! Very tiresome! While there is no more deaf than those that don't want to listen and I know it's a lost cause.. I still wonder about it... What I sell to the customer, is not just humanely doable in a reasonable time frame with just jQuery. Yet using Knockout I make it... "excessively complex" for some... (other developer) Mmmm... just wondering what to think of it... [EDIT2] I guess I am looking for a nice repartee to use in the conversation. Which is both convincing and easy to understand! ;P Something like they sprout me SOLID, KISS, I coolly reply this is way more KISS than your KISS version! (which I can't say, because their mere ignorance is proof that my code is not KISS :~ ) [Edit3] To give you an illustration, some people were confused when I started to use lambda expression... (or maybe generic?) (I think I started to get a bad rep for overengineering when I was using these strange things)
My programming get away... The Blog...[](</x-turndown)
How about: Keeping It So Simple Makes Your Application Run with Superior Efficiency Or, for the 'merkins: Keeping It So Simple Makes Your Application Stable and Solid ;)
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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Maybe 20 lines of jQuery was bit exagerated.. :laugh: But the latest cookie knockout extension I wrote is quite concise, expressive and helpful. short version
<div data-bind="cookie: { name: 'visibleColumns', data: visibleColumns() }">...</div>
long version (where I inline
visibleColumns())<div data-bind="cookie: { name: 'visibleColumns', data: tableOption.aoColumns.enumerable().where(function(x) { return x.koVisible; }).select(function(x) { return x.koVisible; }).array() }">...</div>
I have a datatable extension, which take some standart datatable option, and some extra option like an (optional) '
koVisible' property of typeko.observable<boolean>()(TypeScriptsyntax), to automatically hide / show columns. This statement collect all thekoVisibleflags (on columns which have it), initialize them from a cookie if it exists and automatically update the cookie if any of them changes.My programming get away... The Blog... DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
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How about: Keeping It So Simple Makes Your Application Run with Superior Efficiency Or, for the 'merkins: Keeping It So Simple Makes Your Application Stable and Solid ;)
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
Think I can use the acronyms!?! :laugh:
My programming get away... The Blog... DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
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Because this is so... subjective!!! Right now at work some people hates me because I routinely replace 20 lines of jQuery (allegedly simple) with 1 Knockout statement (allegedly complicated). [Edit] to make it clear, I am NOT rewriting any existing code. I am talking of new code, which I prefer to write with a short and side effect free knockout statement instead of the (usual) pile of jQuery event and DOM creation method. Hey it's true, they look at it dumbfounded and say "it's unmaintainable" so the average programmer can't fix it, indeed! Now I am in a quandary, I convinced the client to implement a quite dynamic almost SPA couple of pages, with almost 1000 lines of TypeScript and 600 lines of HTML and knockout (with binding and template). To make it "more simple" I will have to balloon the code size to I dunno how much and spend zillion of hours debugging jQuery event handling and DOM creation spaghetti!!! :mad: (To the point, I don't think I can make it with just jQuery, I have to give up.... it's more dynamic than Facebook for god sake! maybe I exaggerate, but I like to think so! ;P) Well this is the maintenance team which complains about it, my project manager says to forget about it and continue using knockout when appropriate (which my team mates are slowly starting to love too) Now I get sprouted some vague insult... awful code.. you are so selfish and pretentious... why can't you follow KISS and SOLID principle insult every now and then! Very tiresome! While there is no more deaf than those that don't want to listen and I know it's a lost cause.. I still wonder about it... What I sell to the customer, is not just humanely doable in a reasonable time frame with just jQuery. Yet using Knockout I make it... "excessively complex" for some... (other developer) Mmmm... just wondering what to think of it... [EDIT2] I guess I am looking for a nice repartee to use in the conversation. Which is both convincing and easy to understand! ;P Something like they sprout me SOLID, KISS, I coolly reply this is way more KISS than your KISS version! (which I can't say, because their mere ignorance is proof that my code is not KISS :~ ) [Edit3] To give you an illustration, some people were confused when I started to use lambda expression... (or maybe generic?) (I think I started to get a bad rep for overengineering when I was using these strange things)
My programming get away... The Blog...[](</x-turndown)
Keep fighting the good fight. If you are using knockout I assume you are also doing MVVM. MVVM is all about maintainability and simplicity, not to mention KISS/SOLID. A couple points for you: A) Just because you don't understand some code doesn't make it bad. B) Those opposing MVVM and enabling frameworks in todays development world are analogous to people in the year 2000 something still calling OO a fad. Regardless implementing a thoroughly tested and production ready framework over writing a bunch of roll your own code is usually going to yield less bugs and more bang for the clients buck.
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Keep fighting the good fight. If you are using knockout I assume you are also doing MVVM. MVVM is all about maintainability and simplicity, not to mention KISS/SOLID. A couple points for you: A) Just because you don't understand some code doesn't make it bad. B) Those opposing MVVM and enabling frameworks in todays development world are analogous to people in the year 2000 something still calling OO a fad. Regardless implementing a thoroughly tested and production ready framework over writing a bunch of roll your own code is usually going to yield less bugs and more bang for the clients buck.
Rowdy Raider wrote:
Regardless implementing a thoroughly tested and production ready framework over writing a bunch of roll your own code is usually going to yield less bugs and more bang for the clients buck.
That is a good repartee! :P
My programming get away... The Blog... DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
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Keep fighting the good fight. If you are using knockout I assume you are also doing MVVM. MVVM is all about maintainability and simplicity, not to mention KISS/SOLID. A couple points for you: A) Just because you don't understand some code doesn't make it bad. B) Those opposing MVVM and enabling frameworks in todays development world are analogous to people in the year 2000 something still calling OO a fad. Regardless implementing a thoroughly tested and production ready framework over writing a bunch of roll your own code is usually going to yield less bugs and more bang for the clients buck.
Rowdy Raider wrote:
Keep fighting the good fight. If you are using knockout I assume you are also doing MVVM. MVVM is all about maintainability and simplicity, not to mention KISS/SOLID.
Indeed!!! :-D
My programming get away... The Blog... DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
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Because this is so... subjective!!! Right now at work some people hates me because I routinely replace 20 lines of jQuery (allegedly simple) with 1 Knockout statement (allegedly complicated). [Edit] to make it clear, I am NOT rewriting any existing code. I am talking of new code, which I prefer to write with a short and side effect free knockout statement instead of the (usual) pile of jQuery event and DOM creation method. Hey it's true, they look at it dumbfounded and say "it's unmaintainable" so the average programmer can't fix it, indeed! Now I am in a quandary, I convinced the client to implement a quite dynamic almost SPA couple of pages, with almost 1000 lines of TypeScript and 600 lines of HTML and knockout (with binding and template). To make it "more simple" I will have to balloon the code size to I dunno how much and spend zillion of hours debugging jQuery event handling and DOM creation spaghetti!!! :mad: (To the point, I don't think I can make it with just jQuery, I have to give up.... it's more dynamic than Facebook for god sake! maybe I exaggerate, but I like to think so! ;P) Well this is the maintenance team which complains about it, my project manager says to forget about it and continue using knockout when appropriate (which my team mates are slowly starting to love too) Now I get sprouted some vague insult... awful code.. you are so selfish and pretentious... why can't you follow KISS and SOLID principle insult every now and then! Very tiresome! While there is no more deaf than those that don't want to listen and I know it's a lost cause.. I still wonder about it... What I sell to the customer, is not just humanely doable in a reasonable time frame with just jQuery. Yet using Knockout I make it... "excessively complex" for some... (other developer) Mmmm... just wondering what to think of it... [EDIT2] I guess I am looking for a nice repartee to use in the conversation. Which is both convincing and easy to understand! ;P Something like they sprout me SOLID, KISS, I coolly reply this is way more KISS than your KISS version! (which I can't say, because their mere ignorance is proof that my code is not KISS :~ ) [Edit3] To give you an illustration, some people were confused when I started to use lambda expression... (or maybe generic?) (I think I started to get a bad rep for overengineering when I was using these strange things)
My programming get away... The Blog...[](</x-turndown)
Simplicity is always in the eyes of the observer. The question is which eyes to care ? Maybe you can improve the eyes of the maintenance team by training them. But it can only work if they agree to. (Lot's of developers hold grudge against MS will despise knockout and typescript 'just because') On the other hand you can just ignore them. You are the one getting things done, and stackholder pushing your project don't care about whether or not maintenance team can take it. The root of the problem is that HR department indirectly pushes "KISS for everybody" so they can hire more easily. (Which is reflected by the level of your maintenance team, that in your case is clearly incompetent for .NET development) But, at the end of the day, you are the one making another's life better, and in the position to dictate what to use. Final answer : train them, and if they refuse to be trained, ignore them and get stuff done.
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Well this is difficult in this case. I am not hit by my team mate. But by some remote team who had a look at the source code and with which I can't talk! I already asked them: "let's sit together and 'fix' the code" but... "there is no time"
My programming get away... The Blog... DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
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Maybe I was cavalier indeed. I didn't like web development at all, kind of sad doing it. Then I discovered knockout and that I could make quite advanced web app with little effort. Then the customer wanted a new application and we had time to build a prototype. The customer loved my prototype a lot and were quite impressed with it! But some developer hate the technology choice I made. Or the one I didn't make. As far as I can see I can only humanely do these kind of application with knockout or angular (or my own big library). But they hate either choices. And the customer really like my prototype! So my choices was: 1. continue doing spaghetti giant jQeury even handling and DOM manipulation with primitive table CRUD operation 2. sell a (more pleasant to me and more user pleasing) new concept, which displease some other developer I choose 2, maybe I should accept the consequences... but I am ... frustrated... Isn't it part of developer job to keep with the time? Isn't that so much easier when handled a working code base on a platter (as opposed to have to implement it on your own)?!
My programming get away... The Blog... DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
The problem isn't with the technology. Knockout is much better than hand rolled jQuery all over the place. It's with the communication and management of the team.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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by one statement I mean one statment! not multiple statement on the same line. example 1: helloWordd(); 1 statement, 1 line example 2: hellowWorld(); howAreYou(); 1 line but 2 statements example 3: studliLongMethodNameForAMethodThatDoesNothingMuch(); 1 statement too! ;P example 4: a(); b(); c(); d(); 1 line, 4 statements! :omg:
My programming get away... The Blog... DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
