Why Python?
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A friend of mine has started his journey to become a programmer. His class is learning Python, and I mus wonder, Why Python? I want him to have a look at C-like languages in-stead, (for when he's finished with his current course), but he is adamant that his teacher must be correct in saying that Python is what the programmers need today, to be hireable. I am a big fan of C# and PHP, and I see little in Python that makes them comparable, (granted I haven't used much time with Python), But I can't see it even begin to compete with the big ones, (The C-like languages). But am I wrong? The real question is really: are there really any big differences between the top 15 or 20 most popular programming languages? -frank
Relevant XKCD[^] My guess is either the teacher is using it due to the simplicity and/or readability angle. Either that or the teacher has notes in Python and doesn't want to update (more common than you'd think). I often think whether there is space for a programming language specifically for teaching, where you can start with simple procedural code, and switch flags on/off (like Option Explicit in VB I suppose) to access more advanced syntax. It'd be interesting if this is possible: Duck Typing vs static would be an effort, would (and could) you want to switch between paradigms (FP/OO etc).
PB 369,783 wrote:
I just find him very unlikeable, and I think the way he looks like a prettier version of his Mum is very disturbing.[^]
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A friend of mine has started his journey to become a programmer. His class is learning Python, and I mus wonder, Why Python? I want him to have a look at C-like languages in-stead, (for when he's finished with his current course), but he is adamant that his teacher must be correct in saying that Python is what the programmers need today, to be hireable. I am a big fan of C# and PHP, and I see little in Python that makes them comparable, (granted I haven't used much time with Python), But I can't see it even begin to compete with the big ones, (The C-like languages). But am I wrong? The real question is really: are there really any big differences between the top 15 or 20 most popular programming languages? -frank
Frank Reidar Haugen wrote:
Why Python?
Because Rattlesnake just won't do? :)
If first you don't succeed, hide all evidence you ever tried!
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Relevant XKCD[^] My guess is either the teacher is using it due to the simplicity and/or readability angle. Either that or the teacher has notes in Python and doesn't want to update (more common than you'd think). I often think whether there is space for a programming language specifically for teaching, where you can start with simple procedural code, and switch flags on/off (like Option Explicit in VB I suppose) to access more advanced syntax. It'd be interesting if this is possible: Duck Typing vs static would be an effort, would (and could) you want to switch between paradigms (FP/OO etc).
PB 369,783 wrote:
I just find him very unlikeable, and I think the way he looks like a prettier version of his Mum is very disturbing.[^]
Keith Barrow wrote:
I often think whether there is space for a programming language specifically for teaching,
Problem with that is that no-one will want to learn it - as it has no commercial use. And if it gets picked up as a commercial language, everyone will just belittle it in the same way they do VB (and probably for the same reasons)
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Frank Reidar Haugen wrote:
Why Python?
Because Rattlesnake just won't do? :)
If first you don't succeed, hide all evidence you ever tried!
Because Monty Rattlesnake sounds silly? It'ssssssss.... b-dum de diddly dum de dum, de dum de dum de dee... Monty Rattlesnake's Flying Circusssses! Nah.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Python is really well structured, especially for a beginner. It's forgiving, multi platform and pretty powerful. I know of a major bank that uses python to do their risk analytics, after doing rather a lot of technology performance comparisons. PHP is a godawful mess, and C# is tightly platform specific. It's a really nice language. Sure, people whine about the whitespace/tab thing. But once you get over it (it takes about 2 hours), it yields a much cleaner block of code. Frankly I'd be using it now if my code base wasn't already in perl. I'd say give it a shot. It'll almost certainly surprise you.
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A friend of mine has started his journey to become a programmer. His class is learning Python, and I mus wonder, Why Python? I want him to have a look at C-like languages in-stead, (for when he's finished with his current course), but he is adamant that his teacher must be correct in saying that Python is what the programmers need today, to be hireable. I am a big fan of C# and PHP, and I see little in Python that makes them comparable, (granted I haven't used much time with Python), But I can't see it even begin to compete with the big ones, (The C-like languages). But am I wrong? The real question is really: are there really any big differences between the top 15 or 20 most popular programming languages? -frank
I came from a school that required writing a shell for UNIX in C as a 200 level class :wtf: Our intro was in C++, by the time we graduated, the dept. moved to Java, and never taught it to us. So our high level classes required us to learn a new language at the same time we did the course work :doh: I worked in embedded C, did some C++ with MFC, and then went back to get a M.S. My favorite class in the entire program was one that used Python for the final project and we had to create a game where the models / engine / art were provided for us. I really liked Python, and would not hesitate to take a job with it.
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yeah I'm not sure I'd trust mono in a production environment. "Maybe it's fine"
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Keith Barrow wrote:
I often think whether there is space for a programming language specifically for teaching,
Problem with that is that no-one will want to learn it - as it has no commercial use. And if it gets picked up as a commercial language, everyone will just belittle it in the same way they do VB (and probably for the same reasons)
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
Yep, though, curiously, I think this is exactly how BASIC started out. TBH the idea is more of an intellectual exercise rather than anything I'd ever get round to starting, a bit like an extended esolang. As for belittling,yes they would, but meh. Pretty much anyone who belittles any language (me included I've had the more than odd pop at VB) has achieved less than anyone who has actually designed one. Much easier to snipe from the sidelines than to actually do.
PB 369,783 wrote:
I just find him very unlikeable, and I think the way he looks like a prettier version of his Mum is very disturbing.[^]
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A friend of mine has started his journey to become a programmer. His class is learning Python, and I mus wonder, Why Python? I want him to have a look at C-like languages in-stead, (for when he's finished with his current course), but he is adamant that his teacher must be correct in saying that Python is what the programmers need today, to be hireable. I am a big fan of C# and PHP, and I see little in Python that makes them comparable, (granted I haven't used much time with Python), But I can't see it even begin to compete with the big ones, (The C-like languages). But am I wrong? The real question is really: are there really any big differences between the top 15 or 20 most popular programming languages? -frank
Well, honestly, it's not so much the language (though I would avoid all VB languages) but rather the things that the language teaches you about programming, such as structure, closures, lambda expressions, classes and object hierarchy, etc. I disagree that Python is what programmers need today, but it probably depends on the niche that the instructor lives in. Python is ubiquitous -- it runs everywhere (but so do a lot of other languages nowadays) and I would definitely consider it a good teaching language. As for big differences, I would say that there are several major groupings: interpreted / compiled duck-typed / strong typed pure functional / imperative / hybrid portable / OS-specific desktop / browser supported Personally, I'd use something like that to map out and decide what language to use for the task at hand. Marc
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Python is really well structured, especially for a beginner. It's forgiving, multi platform and pretty powerful. I know of a major bank that uses python to do their risk analytics, after doing rather a lot of technology performance comparisons. PHP is a godawful mess, and C# is tightly platform specific. It's a really nice language. Sure, people whine about the whitespace/tab thing. But once you get over it (it takes about 2 hours), it yields a much cleaner block of code. Frankly I'd be using it now if my code base wasn't already in perl. I'd say give it a shot. It'll almost certainly surprise you.
mikepwilson wrote:
Frankly I'd be using it now [Python] if my code base wasn't already in perl.
That explains a lot. :~ Before you go off on me I have coded in perl because I am a code whore and will code in any language you are willing to pay me to code in, but it is not my first choice of language.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
A friend of mine has started his journey to become a programmer. His class is learning Python, and I mus wonder, Why Python? I want him to have a look at C-like languages in-stead, (for when he's finished with his current course), but he is adamant that his teacher must be correct in saying that Python is what the programmers need today, to be hireable. I am a big fan of C# and PHP, and I see little in Python that makes them comparable, (granted I haven't used much time with Python), But I can't see it even begin to compete with the big ones, (The C-like languages). But am I wrong? The real question is really: are there really any big differences between the top 15 or 20 most popular programming languages? -frank
Why Phyton? Hisotry; 20 years ago the only programming languages at school would be the ones that'd be non-microsoft and free. It was said uni doesn't want a vendor-lock in. Hence, they schooled people in Turbo Pascal (real world used Delphi, but that ain't free) and Java (in the VB6-days).
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Frank Reidar Haugen wrote:
WhyPython
Because his teacher knows it and probably nothing else. :suss:
Frank Reidar Haugen wrote:
I want him to have a look at C-like languages in-stead,
Good advice because, as you said, there are a lot of C varients around.
Frank Reidar Haugen wrote:
he is adamant that his teacher must be correct in saying that Python is what the programmers need today, to be hireable.
Tell him to go to job sites and compare the number of Python jobs to the number of C, C++, C#, PHP, etc.,jobs available. :doh:
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesJimmyRopes wrote:
Because his teacher knows it and probably nothing else. :suss:
Great responses. Definitely true.
JimmyRopes wrote:
Tell him to go to job sites and compare the number of Python jobs to the number of C, C++, C#, PHP, etc.,jobs available. :doh:
Right on!!!
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Well, honestly, it's not so much the language (though I would avoid all VB languages) but rather the things that the language teaches you about programming, such as structure, closures, lambda expressions, classes and object hierarchy, etc. I disagree that Python is what programmers need today, but it probably depends on the niche that the instructor lives in. Python is ubiquitous -- it runs everywhere (but so do a lot of other languages nowadays) and I would definitely consider it a good teaching language. As for big differences, I would say that there are several major groupings: interpreted / compiled duck-typed / strong typed pure functional / imperative / hybrid portable / OS-specific desktop / browser supported Personally, I'd use something like that to map out and decide what language to use for the task at hand. Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
I disagree that Python is what programmers need today, but it probably depends on the niche that the instructor lives in.
Academia. :doh:
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Yep, though, curiously, I think this is exactly how BASIC started out. TBH the idea is more of an intellectual exercise rather than anything I'd ever get round to starting, a bit like an extended esolang. As for belittling,yes they would, but meh. Pretty much anyone who belittles any language (me included I've had the more than odd pop at VB) has achieved less than anyone who has actually designed one. Much easier to snipe from the sidelines than to actually do.
PB 369,783 wrote:
I just find him very unlikeable, and I think the way he looks like a prettier version of his Mum is very disturbing.[^]
Pretty much - BASIC started as a language for non-programmers (and a quick look at QA could persuade you it still is)
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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yeah I'm not sure I'd trust mono in a production environment. "Maybe it's fine"
Why not? :confused:
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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I came from a school that required writing a shell for UNIX in C as a 200 level class :wtf: Our intro was in C++, by the time we graduated, the dept. moved to Java, and never taught it to us. So our high level classes required us to learn a new language at the same time we did the course work :doh: I worked in embedded C, did some C++ with MFC, and then went back to get a M.S. My favorite class in the entire program was one that used Python for the final project and we had to create a game where the models / engine / art were provided for us. I really liked Python, and would not hesitate to take a job with it.
Pualee wrote:
I really liked Python, and would not hesitate to take a job with it.
The problem is finding a job coding Python, compared to C variants. The teacher is telling them that Python is what they need be hireable.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Keith Barrow wrote:
I often think whether there is space for a programming language specifically for teaching,
Problem with that is that no-one will want to learn it - as it has no commercial use. And if it gets picked up as a commercial language, everyone will just belittle it in the same way they do VB (and probably for the same reasons)
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
Odd that, at my old school (where I studied EE, not CS) they taught ML, not because it was popular but rather because it wasn't popular, which meant that the teachers could teach programming instead of a language. The students had lots of opinions about that.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello[^]
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Because Monty Rattlesnake sounds silly? It'ssssssss.... b-dum de diddly dum de dum, de dum de dum de dee... Monty Rattlesnake's Flying Circusssses! Nah.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
Is that any worse than "A Horse, a Spoon and a Bucket", or "Owl Stretching Time"? I'll accept that "Bun, Wackett, Buzzard, Stubble and Boot" would probably have been too long for the TV listings, and "Vaseline Review" would have attracted entirely the wrong sort of viewer. "The Toad Elevating Moment" might have worked though.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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I came from a school that required writing a shell for UNIX in C as a 200 level class :wtf: Our intro was in C++, by the time we graduated, the dept. moved to Java, and never taught it to us. So our high level classes required us to learn a new language at the same time we did the course work :doh: I worked in embedded C, did some C++ with MFC, and then went back to get a M.S. My favorite class in the entire program was one that used Python for the final project and we had to create a game where the models / engine / art were provided for us. I really liked Python, and would not hesitate to take a job with it.
Pualee wrote:
I really liked Python, and would not hesitate to take a job with it.
The problem is finding a job coding Python, compared to C variants. The teacher is telling them that Python is what they need be hireable.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Pualee wrote:
I really liked Python, and would not hesitate to take a job with it.
The problem is finding a job coding Python, compared to C variants. The teacher is telling them that Python is what they need be hireable.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesGood point, I lost sight of that... It's not just CS teachers that are out of touch with reality though. Most of them seem to have an agenda to push. I think it come with the territory as they are always the 'expert' and the class never/rarely is. So the professors end up in a situation where they are always right and ever challenged. Somehow, businesses keep finding people to hire... although it is quite telling now that the value of a 4 year degree is being questioned ;)
