Why so much mathematics in CS?
-
My niece started to learn CS some 6 weeks ago. I just realized that nothing changed since I left...They still pump an enormous amount of mathematics into students. I'm aware that, good logical thought is a must-have for CS, and that good mathematics means the same, but even so! Did you learned that much mathematics as part of your studies? Was it really helpful?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
My bachelor's degree program (class of 1984, computer engineering, Wright State University, go Raiders!) included 28 credit hours of math out of a 205 hour curriculum. This was 20 hours of calculus, 3 hours of matrix algebra, and a 5 hour course in differential equations. I've used the matrix algebra once, over a three month period, about 28 years ago. The part of my brain that stored that math education has been reformatted and now stores lines from old movies. The useful part of my math education was the vast amount of practice in learning how to identify, reason about, and solve problems. Everything we do is one of the infamous "word problems" that everyone in math classes despise.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
It's simple organizational politics and economics. FACT: CompSci was developed by Math Department. FACT: Because CompSci is a Math major, there are minimum requirements to be taught by the Math Department professors. Supposition: If Math Department loses control of Comp Sci major, math requirements would lessen causing Math Department to lose professors, staff and budget. Supposition: If Math Department loses professors, staff and budget then the Dean of the Math department would have less prestige and lower pay. Result: Math Department won't give it up CompSci major and the requirements for taking course in the math department stays high/ That said, many universities have business school programs with emphasis on information systems. The math requirements stop with applied calculus and statistics courses. The question is: Do you want to write compilers or business apps?
cat fud heer
Spot On! Do not limit everyone.
-
I did sum maths - in addition to the computer stuff. It divided the class but i'm positive it was integral to the course. Multiple students failed, and that's what differentiated them.
PooperPig - Coming Soon
-
My niece started to learn CS some 6 weeks ago. I just realized that nothing changed since I left...They still pump an enormous amount of mathematics into students. I'm aware that, good logical thought is a must-have for CS, and that good mathematics means the same, but even so! Did you learned that much mathematics as part of your studies? Was it really helpful?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
Depending on the field you choose, I'm working in robotics and industrial automation and even mostly of the time maths are not needed, sometimes you can find really hard things to solve...
[www.tamautomation.com] | Robots, CNC and PLC machines for grinding and polishing. [YouTube channel]
-
My niece started to learn CS some 6 weeks ago. I just realized that nothing changed since I left...They still pump an enormous amount of mathematics into students. I'm aware that, good logical thought is a must-have for CS, and that good mathematics means the same, but even so! Did you learned that much mathematics as part of your studies? Was it really helpful?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
There's lots of paths to success out there. Math may not be necessary to be successful in the CS field but actually neither is formal education in CS (many readers cringing). I have a degree in math and write programs for a living (C# and Fortran) to perform mathematically based functions. It depends on what the focus of your programming is. In some areas it would be vital. Mostly I liken it to calisthenics for the mind. Give me 2 programmers with equal CS background and I would take the one that has a stronger math aptitude. But, I am clearly biased.
-
Agree about the physics! Many, many moons ago when I started Uni I was aiming for a degree in Physics. That lasted until second year. The day my lecturer put a double integral sign up on the blackboard (I said it was long ago) was the day I knew I would have to find something else... so computing science it was!
And it gets plenty worse (or better, depending on your view of math) in physics after double integrals. But then, in CS, there's the C and the S, isn't there - and who would want to miss the S if it puts you effectively in a higher echelon?
-
My niece started to learn CS some 6 weeks ago. I just realized that nothing changed since I left...They still pump an enormous amount of mathematics into students. I'm aware that, good logical thought is a must-have for CS, and that good mathematics means the same, but even so! Did you learned that much mathematics as part of your studies? Was it really helpful?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
Mathematics is the language of science and logic. Understanding it can make your understanding of the language of programming much easier. As for my own studies, since I hold a bachelor's degree in Mathematical Sciences and a master's degree in Statistics, I would say definitely I learned a lot of math in my studies and it was very instrumental in my learning of programming in general. Granted, my first programming gig was primarily because I was a statistician first and programmer second (I worked for a software house that produced mathematical and statistical libraries).
Christopher Reed "The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient."
-
My niece started to learn CS some 6 weeks ago. I just realized that nothing changed since I left...They still pump an enormous amount of mathematics into students. I'm aware that, good logical thought is a must-have for CS, and that good mathematics means the same, but even so! Did you learned that much mathematics as part of your studies? Was it really helpful?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
-
My niece started to learn CS some 6 weeks ago. I just realized that nothing changed since I left...They still pump an enormous amount of mathematics into students. I'm aware that, good logical thought is a must-have for CS, and that good mathematics means the same, but even so! Did you learned that much mathematics as part of your studies? Was it really helpful?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
Some of it is the process taught in mathematics (or any branch of science, I suppose): how to properly analyze a problem, hypothesize, test, and re-work your hypothesis if the tests don't meet expectations. So, not so much the actual mathematics, for most developers, but that process is important. It does seem as if the developers I've come across (nearing 30 years now) with a scientific background tend to create stronger solutions than those who came out of the CIS-type side from the business college. On the other hand, sometimes the scientifically-minded people will create architectural 'masterpieces' where a simple solution would suffice. I suppose there's room for both in the world, depending on the needs of your employer/client.
-
My niece started to learn CS some 6 weeks ago. I just realized that nothing changed since I left...They still pump an enormous amount of mathematics into students. I'm aware that, good logical thought is a must-have for CS, and that good mathematics means the same, but even so! Did you learned that much mathematics as part of your studies? Was it really helpful?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
They need to teach problem solving. The problem with most ways of teaching problem solving is grading the solution. The solution to that problem is use mathematics, it's easy to grade and it's easy to come up with problems to solve. I've used mathematics when the problem domain requires it, otherwise not so much. Not that I had too but I took, and passed, 2 years of calculus and 1 year of calculus based physics. The most useful courses I took, outside of CS, were the anthropology courses. :)
-
My niece started to learn CS some 6 weeks ago. I just realized that nothing changed since I left...They still pump an enormous amount of mathematics into students. I'm aware that, good logical thought is a must-have for CS, and that good mathematics means the same, but even so! Did you learned that much mathematics as part of your studies? Was it really helpful?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
All those math gives the basis to understand the "cool" things. I think for people that asks "why" more than "how to" cook recipes, those math is a must and very welcome.
-
I went off to Uni (many moons ago) to study a BTech in Maths and Computer Science. At the end of my first year I failed every maths subject (getting zero in one exam, I suspect I didn't even get my own name right) and transferred to a "pure" CS after I re-did the maths exams (at home, no time pressure, all my books and notes. And friends who had passed them handy). I can say that with the exception of basic geometry the only thing I have needed any significant maths for since is low level graphics drivers (you need trig for arcs, curves, and circles). So no. It wasn't really handy. I think it's a hangover to the old, old days: when maths (and Latin) was at the root of all science and scientific thinking. You need some, yes - but nothing too advanced any more. (You need a damn sight more math for physics than for computing these days)
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
I once had to do nested integration by parts in an Excel spreadsheet. BNF had an old Frameworks spreadsheet for calculating radiation from waste piles and they not only wanted it brought up-to-date, they wanted to pull dynamically from a database. One radioactive element breaks down to others - the math was seriously hairy. One formula couldn't fit into an Excel cell, so I created VBA functions. I remember one calculation had to be broken into smaller parts and even then I hit the maximum line continuation limit several times. [shudder/] I'm not sure that my uni math helped much though!
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
-
I once had to do nested integration by parts in an Excel spreadsheet. BNF had an old Frameworks spreadsheet for calculating radiation from waste piles and they not only wanted it brought up-to-date, they wanted to pull dynamically from a database. One radioactive element breaks down to others - the math was seriously hairy. One formula couldn't fit into an Excel cell, so I created VBA functions. I remember one calculation had to be broken into smaller parts and even then I hit the maximum line continuation limit several times. [shudder/] I'm not sure that my uni math helped much though!
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
*cough* :splutter: :omg: The line continuation limit is 25 lines! You had single lines of code that big? :wtf: Did you run away and hide when it came time to maintain this? :laugh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
-
*cough* :splutter: :omg: The line continuation limit is 25 lines! You had single lines of code that big? :wtf: Did you run away and hide when it came time to maintain this? :laugh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
I left the country
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
-
I left the country
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
I don't blame you! Sounds like a prime candidate for Weird And Wonderful[^] though. Or are you worried that the next poor fool is going to hop on a plane and hunt you down? :laugh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
-
My niece started to learn CS some 6 weeks ago. I just realized that nothing changed since I left...They still pump an enormous amount of mathematics into students. I'm aware that, good logical thought is a must-have for CS, and that good mathematics means the same, but even so! Did you learned that much mathematics as part of your studies? Was it really helpful?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
I have studied both mathematics and computing to degree level and beyond, though I am more of a mathematician who programs as a hobby. To be honest you don't have to be a great mathematician to be a good programmer. What 'mathematics' most programmers use is basic logic and numeracy ('basic' as in 'foundational' though not necessarily easy, i.e. taught in the first year of an undergraduate maths degree or even highschool). Mathematics largely consists of other things, however, such as differential equations, many of which are derived and solved intuitively, rather than according to some rigorous logic. The best mathematicians also have good intuition and will not attempt some slow logical chain of arguments to solve a problem which can be solved by instinct (and may be insolvable by application of rigorous logic). For example, Schrodinger's wave equation can not be entirely derived mathematically or logically, it is partially an intuitive 'guess' which works. Computing requires a more rigid logical framework than mathematics. Furthermore, the only areas I have found that really make use of some of my more advanced mathematics are 3D graphics and mathematical applications that solve mathematical problems. Nevertheless, mathematics is useful - it helps with understanding algorithm optimisation, manipulation of 3D vectors and matrices (for graphical apps), binary and basic manipulation of algebraic equations and numeracy. However, there are good mathematicians who are bad at programming and good programmers who are bad at mathematics. It really depends on one's own particular niche.
-
I don't blame you! Sounds like a prime candidate for Weird And Wonderful[^] though. Or are you worried that the next poor fool is going to hop on a plane and hunt you down? :laugh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
I don't have the code anymore (like I was going to keep that!) I think there were fewer line continuations then (around '95, gawd know which version of Excel), but breaking some of the calculations up made no sense and would have made the code even harder to understand. This was done on site and with the approval of real nuclear physicists (a weird bunch who incidentally knew Terry Pratchett personally!) You should have seen the original Framework spreadsheets. At least my VBA had comments (some probably started "Sorry"!) and "friendly" function names like dblRadiationFromDaughterProducts. Sometimes the problem really is that awful, and your choice is to compare various steaming heaps.
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
-
I did sum maths - in addition to the computer stuff. It divided the class but i'm positive it was integral to the course. Multiple students failed, and that's what differentiated them.
PooperPig - Coming Soon
Nice. Made my day
-
My niece started to learn CS some 6 weeks ago. I just realized that nothing changed since I left...They still pump an enormous amount of mathematics into students. I'm aware that, good logical thought is a must-have for CS, and that good mathematics means the same, but even so! Did you learned that much mathematics as part of your studies? Was it really helpful?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
Things like logic and discrete math apply directly to CS. But calculus not so much, unless you're doing certain types of programming. I had to take calculus and I've never, ever used it, I've used some trig but no calculus. These days I couldn't integrate something with a gun to my head. CS is historically a branch of mathematics, so I think that's where the pre-reqs come from. But unlike, say, physics or engineering, you don't really use calculus in CS. I'm not opposed to requiring CS majors to take math, but it should be math that is relevant to CS, specifically logic. Honestly, the symbolic logic classes I took in the philosophy department were more relevant to CS than the math classes.
-
Excellent response!..and one that agrees with my experience. In the late '80s I was pursuing a CS degree. I did great in the programming courses, but the calculus 1 (which I took twice) along with chemistry 1, and accounting kicked the crap out of me. X| I lost my scholarship and spent the next 10 years as a production drone. When I came back to school in the late '90s my degree was switched to CIS under the SOB. No more maths or 'science' classes were required. Too bad I still had to take all those horrible literature classes! :laugh:
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
I was in my late 20s when I started on my bachelors, scared as could be because my last two years of HS were abysmal. When I got to Business Calc, second quarter, I really struggled. There were three section tests then a cumulative final right after the 3rd section. It was all cookbook stuff, as far as the way it was taught: Do this, do that, and out comes the answer. On the first section test I got something like a 76, so I studied even harder for the second. Of course my score on that was even worse. So I went to see a TA. I told him my woes. He asked which course I was taking. He said "Do this, do that, and out comes the answer." I said, "I know that. That's what I do but my tests suck. Why does doing this and that give me the answer?" Then he went on to explain it in terms of speed and exceleration. Heck! It was back to high school physics from there, where we spent most of the year starting from mass, distance, time to things like speed (d * t) and acceleration (d * t * t) and it all made sense. Third section test was something like a 98%, and the final was over 100% because I also aced the extra credit. Ended up with an 89.5% average for the quarter. Ninety percent was an A, so I went to the professor to ask for the bump. No could do, he said. The numbers are the numbers. That I had mastered the material meant nothing to him. Well, I took Bus Calc 2 from another professor and got an A. I remember he was Lebanese and spoke French, too. My first quarter I had an A in PreCalc taught by a Spanish-speaking grad student. So, the biggest lesson I learned from Bus Calc 1 was "Don't take math classes from people who speak English as their first language."
cat fud heer
