Why so much mathematics in CS?
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My niece started to learn CS some 6 weeks ago. I just realized that nothing changed since I left...They still pump an enormous amount of mathematics into students. I'm aware that, good logical thought is a must-have for CS, and that good mathematics means the same, but even so! Did you learned that much mathematics as part of your studies? Was it really helpful?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
Some of it is the process taught in mathematics (or any branch of science, I suppose): how to properly analyze a problem, hypothesize, test, and re-work your hypothesis if the tests don't meet expectations. So, not so much the actual mathematics, for most developers, but that process is important. It does seem as if the developers I've come across (nearing 30 years now) with a scientific background tend to create stronger solutions than those who came out of the CIS-type side from the business college. On the other hand, sometimes the scientifically-minded people will create architectural 'masterpieces' where a simple solution would suffice. I suppose there's room for both in the world, depending on the needs of your employer/client.
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My niece started to learn CS some 6 weeks ago. I just realized that nothing changed since I left...They still pump an enormous amount of mathematics into students. I'm aware that, good logical thought is a must-have for CS, and that good mathematics means the same, but even so! Did you learned that much mathematics as part of your studies? Was it really helpful?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
They need to teach problem solving. The problem with most ways of teaching problem solving is grading the solution. The solution to that problem is use mathematics, it's easy to grade and it's easy to come up with problems to solve. I've used mathematics when the problem domain requires it, otherwise not so much. Not that I had too but I took, and passed, 2 years of calculus and 1 year of calculus based physics. The most useful courses I took, outside of CS, were the anthropology courses. :)
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My niece started to learn CS some 6 weeks ago. I just realized that nothing changed since I left...They still pump an enormous amount of mathematics into students. I'm aware that, good logical thought is a must-have for CS, and that good mathematics means the same, but even so! Did you learned that much mathematics as part of your studies? Was it really helpful?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
All those math gives the basis to understand the "cool" things. I think for people that asks "why" more than "how to" cook recipes, those math is a must and very welcome.
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I went off to Uni (many moons ago) to study a BTech in Maths and Computer Science. At the end of my first year I failed every maths subject (getting zero in one exam, I suspect I didn't even get my own name right) and transferred to a "pure" CS after I re-did the maths exams (at home, no time pressure, all my books and notes. And friends who had passed them handy). I can say that with the exception of basic geometry the only thing I have needed any significant maths for since is low level graphics drivers (you need trig for arcs, curves, and circles). So no. It wasn't really handy. I think it's a hangover to the old, old days: when maths (and Latin) was at the root of all science and scientific thinking. You need some, yes - but nothing too advanced any more. (You need a damn sight more math for physics than for computing these days)
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
I once had to do nested integration by parts in an Excel spreadsheet. BNF had an old Frameworks spreadsheet for calculating radiation from waste piles and they not only wanted it brought up-to-date, they wanted to pull dynamically from a database. One radioactive element breaks down to others - the math was seriously hairy. One formula couldn't fit into an Excel cell, so I created VBA functions. I remember one calculation had to be broken into smaller parts and even then I hit the maximum line continuation limit several times. [shudder/] I'm not sure that my uni math helped much though!
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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I once had to do nested integration by parts in an Excel spreadsheet. BNF had an old Frameworks spreadsheet for calculating radiation from waste piles and they not only wanted it brought up-to-date, they wanted to pull dynamically from a database. One radioactive element breaks down to others - the math was seriously hairy. One formula couldn't fit into an Excel cell, so I created VBA functions. I remember one calculation had to be broken into smaller parts and even then I hit the maximum line continuation limit several times. [shudder/] I'm not sure that my uni math helped much though!
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
*cough* :splutter: :omg: The line continuation limit is 25 lines! You had single lines of code that big? :wtf: Did you run away and hide when it came time to maintain this? :laugh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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*cough* :splutter: :omg: The line continuation limit is 25 lines! You had single lines of code that big? :wtf: Did you run away and hide when it came time to maintain this? :laugh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
I left the country
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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I left the country
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
I don't blame you! Sounds like a prime candidate for Weird And Wonderful[^] though. Or are you worried that the next poor fool is going to hop on a plane and hunt you down? :laugh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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My niece started to learn CS some 6 weeks ago. I just realized that nothing changed since I left...They still pump an enormous amount of mathematics into students. I'm aware that, good logical thought is a must-have for CS, and that good mathematics means the same, but even so! Did you learned that much mathematics as part of your studies? Was it really helpful?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
I have studied both mathematics and computing to degree level and beyond, though I am more of a mathematician who programs as a hobby. To be honest you don't have to be a great mathematician to be a good programmer. What 'mathematics' most programmers use is basic logic and numeracy ('basic' as in 'foundational' though not necessarily easy, i.e. taught in the first year of an undergraduate maths degree or even highschool). Mathematics largely consists of other things, however, such as differential equations, many of which are derived and solved intuitively, rather than according to some rigorous logic. The best mathematicians also have good intuition and will not attempt some slow logical chain of arguments to solve a problem which can be solved by instinct (and may be insolvable by application of rigorous logic). For example, Schrodinger's wave equation can not be entirely derived mathematically or logically, it is partially an intuitive 'guess' which works. Computing requires a more rigid logical framework than mathematics. Furthermore, the only areas I have found that really make use of some of my more advanced mathematics are 3D graphics and mathematical applications that solve mathematical problems. Nevertheless, mathematics is useful - it helps with understanding algorithm optimisation, manipulation of 3D vectors and matrices (for graphical apps), binary and basic manipulation of algebraic equations and numeracy. However, there are good mathematicians who are bad at programming and good programmers who are bad at mathematics. It really depends on one's own particular niche.
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I don't blame you! Sounds like a prime candidate for Weird And Wonderful[^] though. Or are you worried that the next poor fool is going to hop on a plane and hunt you down? :laugh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
I don't have the code anymore (like I was going to keep that!) I think there were fewer line continuations then (around '95, gawd know which version of Excel), but breaking some of the calculations up made no sense and would have made the code even harder to understand. This was done on site and with the approval of real nuclear physicists (a weird bunch who incidentally knew Terry Pratchett personally!) You should have seen the original Framework spreadsheets. At least my VBA had comments (some probably started "Sorry"!) and "friendly" function names like dblRadiationFromDaughterProducts. Sometimes the problem really is that awful, and your choice is to compare various steaming heaps.
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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I did sum maths - in addition to the computer stuff. It divided the class but i'm positive it was integral to the course. Multiple students failed, and that's what differentiated them.
PooperPig - Coming Soon
Nice. Made my day
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My niece started to learn CS some 6 weeks ago. I just realized that nothing changed since I left...They still pump an enormous amount of mathematics into students. I'm aware that, good logical thought is a must-have for CS, and that good mathematics means the same, but even so! Did you learned that much mathematics as part of your studies? Was it really helpful?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
Things like logic and discrete math apply directly to CS. But calculus not so much, unless you're doing certain types of programming. I had to take calculus and I've never, ever used it, I've used some trig but no calculus. These days I couldn't integrate something with a gun to my head. CS is historically a branch of mathematics, so I think that's where the pre-reqs come from. But unlike, say, physics or engineering, you don't really use calculus in CS. I'm not opposed to requiring CS majors to take math, but it should be math that is relevant to CS, specifically logic. Honestly, the symbolic logic classes I took in the philosophy department were more relevant to CS than the math classes.
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Excellent response!..and one that agrees with my experience. In the late '80s I was pursuing a CS degree. I did great in the programming courses, but the calculus 1 (which I took twice) along with chemistry 1, and accounting kicked the crap out of me. X| I lost my scholarship and spent the next 10 years as a production drone. When I came back to school in the late '90s my degree was switched to CIS under the SOB. No more maths or 'science' classes were required. Too bad I still had to take all those horrible literature classes! :laugh:
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
I was in my late 20s when I started on my bachelors, scared as could be because my last two years of HS were abysmal. When I got to Business Calc, second quarter, I really struggled. There were three section tests then a cumulative final right after the 3rd section. It was all cookbook stuff, as far as the way it was taught: Do this, do that, and out comes the answer. On the first section test I got something like a 76, so I studied even harder for the second. Of course my score on that was even worse. So I went to see a TA. I told him my woes. He asked which course I was taking. He said "Do this, do that, and out comes the answer." I said, "I know that. That's what I do but my tests suck. Why does doing this and that give me the answer?" Then he went on to explain it in terms of speed and exceleration. Heck! It was back to high school physics from there, where we spent most of the year starting from mass, distance, time to things like speed (d * t) and acceleration (d * t * t) and it all made sense. Third section test was something like a 98%, and the final was over 100% because I also aced the extra credit. Ended up with an 89.5% average for the quarter. Ninety percent was an A, so I went to the professor to ask for the bump. No could do, he said. The numbers are the numbers. That I had mastered the material meant nothing to him. Well, I took Bus Calc 2 from another professor and got an A. I remember he was Lebanese and spoke French, too. My first quarter I had an A in PreCalc taught by a Spanish-speaking grad student. So, the biggest lesson I learned from Bus Calc 1 was "Don't take math classes from people who speak English as their first language."
cat fud heer
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My niece started to learn CS some 6 weeks ago. I just realized that nothing changed since I left...They still pump an enormous amount of mathematics into students. I'm aware that, good logical thought is a must-have for CS, and that good mathematics means the same, but even so! Did you learned that much mathematics as part of your studies? Was it really helpful?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
I'm glad I had it. It sharpens the mind and although I may have not directly applied the higher level of mathematics. Higher level of mathematics helped me memorize the lower level ones, which I directly used in several projects. I think it's very important to have it, because mathematics is not as easy to learn on demand, through books and you should be prepared if the need comes by.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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My niece started to learn CS some 6 weeks ago. I just realized that nothing changed since I left...They still pump an enormous amount of mathematics into students. I'm aware that, good logical thought is a must-have for CS, and that good mathematics means the same, but even so! Did you learned that much mathematics as part of your studies? Was it really helpful?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
At the college I went to, we had tons of math involved in CS. So much so, that all I had to take was 2 extra math classes outside of the CS curriculum and I had minor in Math (which is what I did since, hell, it was only 2 extra classes!)
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My niece started to learn CS some 6 weeks ago. I just realized that nothing changed since I left...They still pump an enormous amount of mathematics into students. I'm aware that, good logical thought is a must-have for CS, and that good mathematics means the same, but even so! Did you learned that much mathematics as part of your studies? Was it really helpful?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote:
I'm aware that, good logical thought is a must-have for CS, and that good mathematics means the same
Presuming of course that if you mean Computer Science for CS then one might suppose that one should have a fairly complete understanding of mathematics since it forms the basis for probably all of science. Conversely if however is talking about a career in programming then there are far more useful skills. Such as being able to negotiate. Or for that matter just being able to have a semi-lucid conversation with normal business people.
Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote:
Did you learned that much mathematics as part of your studies?
Yes.
Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote:
Was it really helpful?
Not really. Used it exactly once. It was helpful at the time and to be fair other solutions at the time did not seem likely. But it was many years ago and it would take me a great deal more effort now to do the same trick. And the problem I needed to solve then can't exist now so it wouldn't be needed.
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My niece started to learn CS some 6 weeks ago. I just realized that nothing changed since I left...They still pump an enormous amount of mathematics into students. I'm aware that, good logical thought is a must-have for CS, and that good mathematics means the same, but even so! Did you learned that much mathematics as part of your studies? Was it really helpful?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
For calculating screen positions and array indices. :-D
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It's simple organizational politics and economics. FACT: CompSci was developed by Math Department. FACT: Because CompSci is a Math major, there are minimum requirements to be taught by the Math Department professors. Supposition: If Math Department loses control of Comp Sci major, math requirements would lessen causing Math Department to lose professors, staff and budget. Supposition: If Math Department loses professors, staff and budget then the Dean of the Math department would have less prestige and lower pay. Result: Math Department won't give it up CompSci major and the requirements for taking course in the math department stays high/ That said, many universities have business school programs with emphasis on information systems. The math requirements stop with applied calculus and statistics courses. The question is: Do you want to write compilers or business apps?
cat fud heer
Maybe CompSci is a Math major at your school, but that certainly isn't universal. At my school it's under the College Of Engineering And Computer Science, which is in a separate building on nearly the opposite side of the campus from the College Of Natural Sciences And Mathematics. Stopping the math requirements for CS at calculus and statistics is insane, though. Surely they at least include discrete/finite math? The basics of graph theory and group theory are pretty broadly useful, and you really can't do modern graphics without some understanding of matrices and quaternions.
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Maybe CompSci is a Math major at your school, but that certainly isn't universal. At my school it's under the College Of Engineering And Computer Science, which is in a separate building on nearly the opposite side of the campus from the College Of Natural Sciences And Mathematics. Stopping the math requirements for CS at calculus and statistics is insane, though. Surely they at least include discrete/finite math? The basics of graph theory and group theory are pretty broadly useful, and you really can't do modern graphics without some understanding of matrices and quaternions.
Yep...different schools do break things out differently. Way back when I was an undergraduate there were three computing-centric majors. Computer Engineering was much more hardware oriented than the others. It was part of the College of Engineering. Computer Science was in the Math Department of the College of Arts & Sciences. It's focus was operating system-level and communications software plus research-supporting computing. An Information Systems major, mainly focused on applications, was offered by the College of Business.
cat fud heer
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Math, I can see as being useful for a computer science degree. However, what would you make of chemistry? [rant] I didn't take any chemistry class in high school. When I applied to university, I was accepted, but was warned I had to take a chemistry class to catch up. The class was scheduled at the same time as one of my math courses. I brought up my scheduling conflict issue to the teachers from the respective classes, who in turn told me to talk to the university administration; admin told me to take it up with my teachers. That's when, as a kid, I finally realized that higher education is actually run like any for-profit business. They'll accept anyone and be glad to take your money, even knowing you can't possibly be at two lectures that are taking place at the same time; as long as you pay up, they're happy to watch you drop out. Realizing that, I told them to go f*ck themselves for wasting a year of my life and thousands of dollars, went to college for 3 years instead, and aced it. I'm now into my 40s, and still haven't to this day figured out which part of any of the jobs I've had since would've benefited from me knowing anything about chemistry. [/rant] (yeah, after this much time, I'm still kinda bitter about it)
I went to a few different schools. All of them required a physical science for CS. Chemistry was an option for that requirement, but you could also take physics, astronomy, geology, etc. Amusingly, most of the kids on the games track in CS (officially called Graphics & Multimedia) took geology for their physical science requirement, for which they were frequently mocked by the teacher who taught all the games courses.
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I went to a few different schools. All of them required a physical science for CS. Chemistry was an option for that requirement, but you could also take physics, astronomy, geology, etc. Amusingly, most of the kids on the games track in CS (officially called Graphics & Multimedia) took geology for their physical science requirement, for which they were frequently mocked by the teacher who taught all the games courses.
RASPeter wrote:
All of them required a physical science for CS. Chemistry was an option for that requirement, but you could also take physics, astronomy, geology, etc
In highschool, I had science classes (grades 9 and 10), biology (grades 9 and 10), and physics (grades 11 through 13), and, if I recall correctly, at least 2 math courses per semester (at advanced levels) from grades 9 through 13. The university computer science program still wanted me to take chemistry.
