Suggest me a different job!
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ask your client to provide the source code of windows application and you can check yourself what those button do when clicked.
Ravi Khoda
Yes Ravi. You are spot on. If I were him, I would have asked the client straight away for the source code. At least it could have been of so much help to come up with idea how complex the application is. But, there is always a but...
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Yes Ravi. You are spot on. If I were him, I would have asked the client straight away for the source code. At least it could have been of so much help to come up with idea how complex the application is. But, there is always a but...
Even your PM can do that.. this is the whole idea of re-useability, You are just converting the UI of the application by making a web application so , business logic would be same for both so there is no meaning to build every thing from start. Use existing stored procedures , some class may also be reusable from the window application if the code was done properly. and if your PM can not understand this common thing...All the best for the project.
Ravi Khoda
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Yes Ravi. You are spot on. If I were him, I would have asked the client straight away for the source code. At least it could have been of so much help to come up with idea how complex the application is. But, there is always a but...
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Zafar Sultan wrote:
If I were him
Why are you waiting for him to get this idea? As a developer/designer/technical guy, isn't it your responsibility to suggest this?
What do you think a sane developer/designer/technical guy would do? I have already asked him to get the source code to look at. The Reply: We won't get the source code. It is their sole property. They can't share it.
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
I've seen this type of presentation before. Sounds to me like the application (and vendor?) are overseas contractors.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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What do you think a sane developer/designer/technical guy would do? I have already asked him to get the source code to look at. The Reply: We won't get the source code. It is their sole property. They can't share it.
if possible at least ask for the exe file with test database. i think client won't have a problem in doing that. best idea is don't give any estimate, prepare a query document first. ask them about whatever you don't understand during the video session. Try to get the maximum information from client and after that you might be able to give some rough estimate of the project.
Ravi Khoda
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if possible at least ask for the exe file with test database. i think client won't have a problem in doing that. best idea is don't give any estimate, prepare a query document first. ask them about whatever you don't understand during the video session. Try to get the maximum information from client and after that you might be able to give some rough estimate of the project.
Ravi Khoda
Thanks for your valuable suggestion Ravi. :thumbsup:
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What do you think a sane developer/designer/technical guy would do? I have already asked him to get the source code to look at. The Reply: We won't get the source code. It is their sole property. They can't share it.
OK, in that case we need either 1. Workshops between people from previous and current organisation who know the business processes 2. A working application set up for you can try and figure out what is going on. ( and also try decompile it if that is allowed)
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Yeah. "Fat Estimation" can be an option for what we see. What about estimating something that we have not even seen? BTW, do you know any place at "nowhere"?
Zafar Sultan wrote:
BTW, do you know any place at "nowhere"?
"A property doesn't have to be a Property to be a property." - PIEBALDConsult
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
Relevant Book title http://www.andrewsmcmeel.com/catalog/detail?sku=9780740755330[^]
KeithBarrow.net[^] - It might not be very good, but at least it is free!
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
$52 per hour by 2 developers + $65 per hour for a PM, Hours to be determined when a decent specification is supplied. Mr PM is an idjit, taking the job on these requirements would reflect badly on you guys.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
Zafar Sultan wrote:
Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh:
For the other buttons --> alert('E_NOTIMPL'); simple ;P
There are strangers on the Plain, Croaker
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
Sounds to me that some of the requirements are still a bit vague. In the time estimation leave space for 'this time is an unknown which is dependant on what this button is suppose to actually does which we are not clear about'. At the end of the day you'll give them an estimation and leave yourself room to change the estimation. You are in any case going to get a couple of understanding of some requirements wrong because of miss communication. They will in any case change or add a couple of requirements as they start using the product. Make sure that they know that the estimation is dependent on the current requirements as agreed to by you. That any changes would change the cost. Make sure that they don't take advantage of your developers... e.g. slip in a requirement or two without following strict processes. Add a percentage to the estimate for unknown issues that may arise. In my experience there are always setbacks unaccounted for.
"Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence." << please vote!! >>
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
It'll be tricky, but set down and get agreement on acceptance criteria. And let us know how it turns out ;)
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Zafar Sultan wrote:
BTW, do you know any place at "nowhere"?
"A property doesn't have to be a Property to be a property." - PIEBALDConsult
I would suggest this one, its a little more nowhere than in the UK... :) and somewhat more picturesque. https://www.google.co.nz/maps/place/Erewhon+Station/@-43.509219,170.856542,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x6d2c06d7a53debad:0xf4cd197c618ebfe0[^]
If your neighbours don't listen to The Ramones, turn it up real loud so they can. “We didn't have a positive song until we wrote 'Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue!'” ― Dee Dee Ramone "The Democrats want my guns and the Republicans want my porno mags and I ain't giving up either" - Joey Ramone
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
I think this is a very good opportunity for you. Spend some time to imagine if you had the perfect requirement list and start writing down whatever is missing in current situation. Then you have something that you can act upon. Don't ignore this: This is part of the work and should be estimated, so you are not using any tactics or whatsoever here. Looks like your boss really needs education on software projects, but it's not something you can fix; you can only "show by doing". When you have such a list, from your boss' perspective, you will have a better approach than "making excuses with buzzwords like 'requirements' or 'specifications'". Result: You will have a meaningful estimation on when you can start implementing the project. Your boss may still expect an estimation for actually delivering the project, but then you can handle it because you will have some ground which you can base your fat estimates on. (ps: if I were you, I would go for obese estimates.) Do not forget to explicitly mention that "these estimates will be updated as you proceed on this initial learning phase"; this will show your confidence and should give your boss some relief after seeing those numbers :rolleyes: And now you can choose your new job: Team lead? Product Owner? Mentor (of your boss)? Architect? Technical Lead? Man, you ARE lucky :-\
"The primary trait of a good programmer is laziness. Nobody works harder to do nothing than a good programmer." - MehGerbil
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
I think about taking up bus driving in situations like that!
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
You're over thinking this! The video shows the user clicking a button and a new form pops up. All the button needs to do is to show the form with the exact data that the video showed. AFAIK you have the business rules right there. If you push button A, form B shows up. Take screen shots from the video and paste it on the form. They got exactly what they asked for. :laugh:
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend; inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -- Groucho Marx