Suggest me a different job!
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
Relevant Book title http://www.andrewsmcmeel.com/catalog/detail?sku=9780740755330[^]
KeithBarrow.net[^] - It might not be very good, but at least it is free!
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
$52 per hour by 2 developers + $65 per hour for a PM, Hours to be determined when a decent specification is supplied. Mr PM is an idjit, taking the job on these requirements would reflect badly on you guys.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
Zafar Sultan wrote:
Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh:
For the other buttons --> alert('E_NOTIMPL'); simple ;P
There are strangers on the Plain, Croaker
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
Sounds to me that some of the requirements are still a bit vague. In the time estimation leave space for 'this time is an unknown which is dependant on what this button is suppose to actually does which we are not clear about'. At the end of the day you'll give them an estimation and leave yourself room to change the estimation. You are in any case going to get a couple of understanding of some requirements wrong because of miss communication. They will in any case change or add a couple of requirements as they start using the product. Make sure that they know that the estimation is dependent on the current requirements as agreed to by you. That any changes would change the cost. Make sure that they don't take advantage of your developers... e.g. slip in a requirement or two without following strict processes. Add a percentage to the estimate for unknown issues that may arise. In my experience there are always setbacks unaccounted for.
"Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence." << please vote!! >>
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
It'll be tricky, but set down and get agreement on acceptance criteria. And let us know how it turns out ;)
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Zafar Sultan wrote:
BTW, do you know any place at "nowhere"?
"A property doesn't have to be a Property to be a property." - PIEBALDConsult
I would suggest this one, its a little more nowhere than in the UK... :) and somewhat more picturesque. https://www.google.co.nz/maps/place/Erewhon+Station/@-43.509219,170.856542,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x6d2c06d7a53debad:0xf4cd197c618ebfe0[^]
If your neighbours don't listen to The Ramones, turn it up real loud so they can. “We didn't have a positive song until we wrote 'Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue!'” ― Dee Dee Ramone "The Democrats want my guns and the Republicans want my porno mags and I ain't giving up either" - Joey Ramone
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
I think this is a very good opportunity for you. Spend some time to imagine if you had the perfect requirement list and start writing down whatever is missing in current situation. Then you have something that you can act upon. Don't ignore this: This is part of the work and should be estimated, so you are not using any tactics or whatsoever here. Looks like your boss really needs education on software projects, but it's not something you can fix; you can only "show by doing". When you have such a list, from your boss' perspective, you will have a better approach than "making excuses with buzzwords like 'requirements' or 'specifications'". Result: You will have a meaningful estimation on when you can start implementing the project. Your boss may still expect an estimation for actually delivering the project, but then you can handle it because you will have some ground which you can base your fat estimates on. (ps: if I were you, I would go for obese estimates.) Do not forget to explicitly mention that "these estimates will be updated as you proceed on this initial learning phase"; this will show your confidence and should give your boss some relief after seeing those numbers :rolleyes: And now you can choose your new job: Team lead? Product Owner? Mentor (of your boss)? Architect? Technical Lead? Man, you ARE lucky :-\
"The primary trait of a good programmer is laziness. Nobody works harder to do nothing than a good programmer." - MehGerbil
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
I think about taking up bus driving in situations like that!
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
You're over thinking this! The video shows the user clicking a button and a new form pops up. All the button needs to do is to show the form with the exact data that the video showed. AFAIK you have the business rules right there. If you push button A, form B shows up. Take screen shots from the video and paste it on the form. They got exactly what they asked for. :laugh:
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend; inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -- Groucho Marx
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
Just had a similar situation - I got a spec which was full of 'to be decided later' type comments and just brief ideas of what was wanted, so I put my quote in based on my best estimation, however once the job was in progress there was so much added, changed and not considered by the customer that it has taken a long time to unravel the spaghetti and get to the meat - I was happy to work alongside the client to give them what they want even though its taking a while (but I wont do it for nothing), but a tad of bad feeling has arisen because of what he has called my 'weak quotation' and because I didn't bring it in on budget even though I did say at the start that usually specs such as his change and I cant quote on the unknown lol. the positive is that he is happy with the quality of my work, and now we both have no real choice but to see it through on an uneasy truce, but now wants me to give more estimations on unknowns (really !!) but ive said that once this project is finished that's it for me. sorry to waffle but the moral of the story is TRUST YOUR GUT, IF YOU THINK IT WILL BE A TROUBLE JOB IT PROBABLY WILL, SO SAVE YOURSELF THE PAIN AND RUN AWAY NOW :) GL
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I would suggest this one, its a little more nowhere than in the UK... :) and somewhat more picturesque. https://www.google.co.nz/maps/place/Erewhon+Station/@-43.509219,170.856542,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x6d2c06d7a53debad:0xf4cd197c618ebfe0[^]
If your neighbours don't listen to The Ramones, turn it up real loud so they can. “We didn't have a positive song until we wrote 'Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue!'” ― Dee Dee Ramone "The Democrats want my guns and the Republicans want my porno mags and I ain't giving up either" - Joey Ramone
With a river named "Clyde" nearby, you can't go wrong!
Sincerely, -Mark mamiller@rhsnet.org
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
This sucks, and this is why software projects fail! My suggestion is simple. Create the project outline for the screens shown, and add for each button on the screen: For each task you have: - Create Screen/GUI - Backend Business Logic - DB Design/Interface - Testing - Validation - User Feedback Processing + Button1 - All of these items + Button2 - All of these items And just keep clacking away at it. For EVERYTHING you saw in the video. Don't forget to add time to review Printing Components, Frameworks, have graphics built. Every CONCEIVABLE thing that could happen. Give yourself PLENTY of time at every point. Whatever number you come up with, use that as the low end of the estimate. Then Double or Triple that as the high end. Now, for every 2 weeks of time, add 25% to the project for meetings, and another 25% for lost time in meetings, and misinformation! When you are done, you should have a VERY LARGE range, in which you should have plenty of time to create what they asked for. When the customer or the PM suggests this number is too big, ask them to PROVE IT. Even better, ask them HOW they would prove it. When they suggest "We would go through EVERY SCREEN, and review the logic", then say "Yes, given BETTER information, I could produce a BETTER estimate. But that is not what I was given!" Almost all of our projects start as a PAID "Define Phase". Where we Record the meeting, and make the user walk through all of the screens, and explain what is and is not important, who is and is not knowledgeable about each feature, etc. etc. etc. I have 2 new projects. One has a 40hr Define phase. Another has a 90-120 day Define phase. Train your PM to do a better job! BTW, if your PM complains that your number is too big, explain that if you get it done sooner, the company makes more money! LOL
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Yup. He has already come up with the estimate to estimate. Befor EOD!
No problem. It will definitely take 1 per screen. It's impossible to estimate with zero knowledge, so any estimate is as good as any other. You won't keep the schedule, so who cares? Or, ask the client how long it took to design the last system. Take his answer and triple it, 'cause he forgot all the pain. Or, say, "We're agile now. Agile teams don't do estimates." Or, estimate how long it would take you to find a new job working for people who aren't idiots, add two months just to be safe, and submit that.
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We've got a video recording from our client. It's about their current application(windows application) usage. In this video the presenter navigated us to different screens showing how they do their stuff. For example generating bill and its summary. Our task is to create a new web application that will be replacing this old windows application. Now, Mr. PM wants us to suggest estimated time. Task 1: Go through the video and take screen shots. Task 2: Create an excel sheet and write estimated time for UI and Back-End for each screen. What's interesting is we don't have an iota of idea what happens in the background when the user clicks, say button 'Generate Summary'. We are totally unaware of the business logic. :wtf: Another interesting fact is that there are plenty of buttons on each screen and the client only used one or two in many cases. So, we know that 'Generate Summary' takes us to another screen but we don't know what the other buttons does? :doh: Here comes another bomb from Mr. PM: "Please include the estimates for those other buttons on the screen as well." :(( What about selling burgers?
Sounds like every project I've ever worked on.. Is this not what people have to deal with all the time?