"I refuse to work in C#"
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It could always be worse. You could be required to build an app with nothing but Access and macros. It's like opening that nice red toolbox and finding only a bag of sporks.
How many sporks are we talking about here?
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How many sporks are we talking about here?
It's a bonus bag, there's at least fifty in there. With a little time, practice and the incandescent bulb in your desklamp, you can morph them into barely adequate approximations of necessary tools.
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You can have your panhead, I'm enjoying my BMWR1200R.
You're not comparing VS with fine German engineering, are you? :wtf: Just a BMW's ABS means it shouldn't crash as often as VS. :laugh:
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It's a bonus bag, there's at least fifty in there. With a little time, practice and the incandescent bulb in your desklamp, you can morph them into barely adequate approximations of necessary tools.
OK, I can work with that. Thanks.
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You're not comparing VS with fine German engineering, are you? :wtf: Just a BMW's ABS means it shouldn't crash as often as VS. :laugh:
VS to BMW is like Lada to Learjet.
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> my god, I have to actually install Visual Studio and work in an IDE? No way. I want to work from the command line for development, and if you want to use C# for the back end, I'm not going to help you. Yes indeed, I heard that on Friday from a Linux guy who is trying to push for a Django / Python back end at the company I'm working at. Fucking script-kiddies. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project!
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I have no respect for developers who claim they couldn't possibly develop without the latest IDE and related tools. Do more with less. I use Visual Studio only when I need to (WinForms and SSIS), but all my other C# I do old-school*. And I prefer to do primarily back-end, library, utility stuff. I can send him a copy of the simple IDE I wrote -- I use it for C#, C, and VB. I'm sure it can do other languages (basically all you need to do is tell it how to call the compiler). (Sorry, no article is forthcoming at this time.) * No syntax highlighting, no code folding, no debugger, no designer, no intellisense, no real-time syntax checking, just raw like a chopped panhead yo. :cool: Like turbo C, except Turbo C has a debugger.
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My boss is only interested in the SSIS part of what I do and having it in TFS; and that requires VS. How I write the utilities that I use to make my job easier doesn't interest him.
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WTF??? You elitist snob. Just use the damn tools. It's like you're saying I know I can get this nail in with my screwdriver if I can hit it hard enough so I don't need a hammer. They're just tools to make your life easier. But you go ahead: bang your head against that old school wall.
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
No syntax highlighting, no code folding, no debugger, no designer, no real-time syntax checking, just raw like a chopped panhead yo. :cool: Like turbo C, except Turbo C has a debugger.
Just ridiculous. :thumbsdown: I never want to go back to the command line to code. Ugh! X|
I want to chime in on this, because it got heated... I use IDEs, and UltraEdit and Notepad++ But it is getting out of control. How many IDEs do I have to have on my machine? After a FUBAR issue with multiple VS editions and multiple SQLExpress editions, I had to move my development to MANY virtual machines. Being that I consult, I use various tools, for different clients. I don't always get to pick my tools. And MSFT/VS makes it worse. I cannot just recompile my older stuff in the new IDE. The source turns out to be IDE dependent!?! Upgrading it breaks other developers. So, right now, I have 2 IntelliJ platforms, netBeans (2 Versions), Eclipse (5 versions, spread across 3 VMs), 3 Versions of VS, each on its own VM. 3 Versions of Delphi. (And I refused to install the AccuBench COBOL, and use an RDP session for that) Thank the heavens for VMs. I love syntax highlighting, and some of the Refactoring tools. But keeping track of that across these environments really really SUCKS. I see both sides of the argument here. The problem I run into is "You want me to install ANOTHER development Environment". OMG, my Path is over 2K Bytes long. I have issues where I had to create C:\pf86 as a hard link, to reduce my path size! Most people I know that use VS have 2 versions installed, and often times 3 whenever a new version is out. Some have said they have as many as 6 and can't get rid of them, because they maintain VB6 code, etc. And MSFT just drops support in future editions... So you have to keep the old versions around to keep the code alive. Yes, they are tools. But the complexity of managing them is getting out of hand, and I think that is what is expressed here. Over the years, I have lost the ability to rebuild much of the code I have written (I tossed my 10" tape reel 2 decades ago). But what do you do when an old client calls you up for help with code you wrote in 1985? (you kick yourself for not getting ANNUAL FEES, LOL)
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That's some serious storage you got there; I remember my first PC had a 40MB hard drive and that was plenty. I also remember coding in "Machine Code" on my speccy. And yes, I'm aware this is starting to turn into the Monty Python 4 Yorkshiremen sketch[^]. :)
I can't resist. My first machine was a Commodore Vic-20... with 3.5K of user RAM and built in BASIC.
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I want to chime in on this, because it got heated... I use IDEs, and UltraEdit and Notepad++ But it is getting out of control. How many IDEs do I have to have on my machine? After a FUBAR issue with multiple VS editions and multiple SQLExpress editions, I had to move my development to MANY virtual machines. Being that I consult, I use various tools, for different clients. I don't always get to pick my tools. And MSFT/VS makes it worse. I cannot just recompile my older stuff in the new IDE. The source turns out to be IDE dependent!?! Upgrading it breaks other developers. So, right now, I have 2 IntelliJ platforms, netBeans (2 Versions), Eclipse (5 versions, spread across 3 VMs), 3 Versions of VS, each on its own VM. 3 Versions of Delphi. (And I refused to install the AccuBench COBOL, and use an RDP session for that) Thank the heavens for VMs. I love syntax highlighting, and some of the Refactoring tools. But keeping track of that across these environments really really SUCKS. I see both sides of the argument here. The problem I run into is "You want me to install ANOTHER development Environment". OMG, my Path is over 2K Bytes long. I have issues where I had to create C:\pf86 as a hard link, to reduce my path size! Most people I know that use VS have 2 versions installed, and often times 3 whenever a new version is out. Some have said they have as many as 6 and can't get rid of them, because they maintain VB6 code, etc. And MSFT just drops support in future editions... So you have to keep the old versions around to keep the code alive. Yes, they are tools. But the complexity of managing them is getting out of hand, and I think that is what is expressed here. Over the years, I have lost the ability to rebuild much of the code I have written (I tossed my 10" tape reel 2 decades ago). But what do you do when an old client calls you up for help with code you wrote in 1985? (you kick yourself for not getting ANNUAL FEES, LOL)
I didn't say that you should never use Notepad++ or whatever, only that the right tool for the job makes life easier. I have VS2005, 2008, 2010 and 2013 installed and use each one during the course e of the week, depending on what application I am building or supporting. it is no different to a mechanic having several different sizes of socket sets. You pick the appropriate one for the job at hand. If you choose to use UltraEdit for that task, good for you. Wouldn't be my choice - I was happy to get away form the command line and text editors for development - they seem sort of primitive compared to a decent IDE: I enjoy all the extras that the IDE gives me. All I said was that it is elitist and snobby to completely dismiss IDEs as some sort of guilty pleasure or tool that only poor developers would use.
Kirk 10389821 wrote:
But what do you do when an old client calls you up for help with code you wrote in 1985?
Offer to rewrite it in widget++ for a massive fee, of course! :)
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Asday wrote:
Sometimes tools get in the way.
Not if you use them properly.
Asday wrote:
You're the elitist here.
You have that ass-backward, I'm an anti-elitist. Presumably, you're one of the elitists using notepad to produce the next version of Word. Good luck with that. Here's another analogy: if I'm working on a 50 year old car, then I'd expect my toolkit to be a little different than the one I use for a 3 year old car. I might be able to sue some of those old tools on the new car but that would probably not be the most efficient use when the manufacturer would have produced specialist tools for the job. (We're ignoring the fact that you can make your own tools; from experience I can tell you that is only effective in very few cases).
> Not if you use them properly. Ever seen an old person try to work one of those new TV remotes? Sometimes you get used to the old way, and that's fine. > Presumably, you're one of the elitists using notepad to produce the next version of Word. Good luck with that. Did notepad touch you when you were a kid? Why are you so aggressive? > Yet more clueless bullshit Your analogy is stupid. C# is a decade and a half old. Python is two and a half decades. C is four. Some people use IDEs for C. Some people don't use IDEs for C#. It has nothing to do with the age of the "car"; it's about how the programmer works best. You could take away my pushbike and hand me a quad bike and tell me it's better, but that doesn't mean I'll enjoy it more, or ride more skillfully.
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> my god, I have to actually install Visual Studio and work in an IDE? No way. I want to work from the command line for development, and if you want to use C# for the back end, I'm not going to help you. Yes indeed, I heard that on Friday from a Linux guy who is trying to push for a Django / Python back end at the company I'm working at. Fucking script-kiddies. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project!
Can I have his job? I'd love to work in C#! I'm looking right now. ;)
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> Not if you use them properly. Ever seen an old person try to work one of those new TV remotes? Sometimes you get used to the old way, and that's fine. > Presumably, you're one of the elitists using notepad to produce the next version of Word. Good luck with that. Did notepad touch you when you were a kid? Why are you so aggressive? > Yet more clueless bullshit Your analogy is stupid. C# is a decade and a half old. Python is two and a half decades. C is four. Some people use IDEs for C. Some people don't use IDEs for C#. It has nothing to do with the age of the "car"; it's about how the programmer works best. You could take away my pushbike and hand me a quad bike and tell me it's better, but that doesn't mean I'll enjoy it more, or ride more skillfully.
Asday wrote:
Sometimes you get used to the old way, and that's fine.
I'm old but I adapt and change. My FIL is 87 and juts bought an Apple laptop. he loves it. Not all people of age are old.
Asday wrote:
Did notepad touch you when you were a kid?
There was no Notepad when I was a kid. There were no pcs. There was only pong.
Asday wrote:
Why are you so aggressive?
I didn't realize I was being aggressive; just straightforward.
Asday wrote:
Your analogy is stupid.
Now who's being aggressive? Anyway, you clearly don't understand the analogy. I have not once don't use notepad or anything you want: my complaint was that the OP said he wouldn't use an IDE and I am saying I like to use an IDE. The same way I would use a laptop to help me diagnose the issue with a new car. On a 50 year old car the laptop could only be used to stop the car rolling.
Asday wrote:
C# is a decade and a half old. Python is two and a half decades. C is four. Some people use IDEs for C. Some people don't use IDEs for C#. It has nothing to do with the age of the "car"; it's about how the programmer works best.
I never said it didn't work like that. You've plainly not really understood any of the sides here and are just barreling in. Your example of c# is not good: that has always had an IDE. Yes, some people may choose to code with Notepad/ I just say Why? The IDE is a far richer environment. If you choose not to use it, your loss.
Asday wrote:
You could take away my pushbike and hand me a quad bike and tell me it's better, but that doesn't mean I'll enjoy it more, or ride more skillfully.
No one wants to take anything from you: you have utterly misunderstood. perhaps you should go rip some code on your abacus.
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Asday wrote:
Sometimes you get used to the old way, and that's fine.
I'm old but I adapt and change. My FIL is 87 and juts bought an Apple laptop. he loves it. Not all people of age are old.
Asday wrote:
Did notepad touch you when you were a kid?
There was no Notepad when I was a kid. There were no pcs. There was only pong.
Asday wrote:
Why are you so aggressive?
I didn't realize I was being aggressive; just straightforward.
Asday wrote:
Your analogy is stupid.
Now who's being aggressive? Anyway, you clearly don't understand the analogy. I have not once don't use notepad or anything you want: my complaint was that the OP said he wouldn't use an IDE and I am saying I like to use an IDE. The same way I would use a laptop to help me diagnose the issue with a new car. On a 50 year old car the laptop could only be used to stop the car rolling.
Asday wrote:
C# is a decade and a half old. Python is two and a half decades. C is four. Some people use IDEs for C. Some people don't use IDEs for C#. It has nothing to do with the age of the "car"; it's about how the programmer works best.
I never said it didn't work like that. You've plainly not really understood any of the sides here and are just barreling in. Your example of c# is not good: that has always had an IDE. Yes, some people may choose to code with Notepad/ I just say Why? The IDE is a far richer environment. If you choose not to use it, your loss.
Asday wrote:
You could take away my pushbike and hand me a quad bike and tell me it's better, but that doesn't mean I'll enjoy it more, or ride more skillfully.
No one wants to take anything from you: you have utterly misunderstood. perhaps you should go rip some code on your abacus.
> I'm old but I adapt and change. You're missing a very very important part of my post. > and that's fine. > Your example of c# is not good: that has always had an IDE So? You've always been able to code in a text editor. What's your point? > perhaps you should go rip some code on your abacus. > I have not once don't use notepad or anything you want: Why are you so confused? I don't care what other people use. I don't code with two badgers and a spoon. The reason I'm talking to you is because you're trying to force the idea that using an IDE is straight up better than not doing so, and you're wrong. It depends on the programmer. >Yes, some people may choose to code with Notepad/ I just say Why? The IDE is a far richer environment. If you choose not to use it, your loss. Yes, some people may choose to have a bacon sandwich, I just say "why"? Eating the whole pig is much more filling. If you choose not to eat a whole pig, it's your loss.
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> I'm old but I adapt and change. You're missing a very very important part of my post. > and that's fine. > Your example of c# is not good: that has always had an IDE So? You've always been able to code in a text editor. What's your point? > perhaps you should go rip some code on your abacus. > I have not once don't use notepad or anything you want: Why are you so confused? I don't care what other people use. I don't code with two badgers and a spoon. The reason I'm talking to you is because you're trying to force the idea that using an IDE is straight up better than not doing so, and you're wrong. It depends on the programmer. >Yes, some people may choose to code with Notepad/ I just say Why? The IDE is a far richer environment. If you choose not to use it, your loss. Yes, some people may choose to have a bacon sandwich, I just say "why"? Eating the whole pig is much more filling. If you choose not to eat a whole pig, it's your loss.
Asday wrote:
Why are you so confused? I don't care what other people use. I don't code with two badgers and a spoon. The reason I'm talking to you is because you're trying to force the idea that using an IDE is straight up better than not doing so, and you're wrong. It depends on the programmer.
Again, you're seeing things that are not there. perhaps you should have a rest since you're plainly struggling here. You need to re-read what I have said. Let's try this: using notepad, for instance is like driving a mini, maybe even a mini cooper. They're great, Ive had one or two and they are marvelous little cars. A decent IDE? Like driving a Jag. It's still just a car but it has loads of useful little extras that you'd have to buy and install on your own for the mini. I guess you won't get that either as you are so blinded by what you think has been said.
Asday wrote:
Yes, some people may choose to have a bacon sandwich, I just say "why"? Eating the whole pig is much more filling. If you choose not to eat a whole pig, it's your loss
Yup, the jury is in, you are a twat.
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I can't resist. My first machine was a Commodore Vic-20... with 3.5K of user RAM and built in BASIC.
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I can't resist. My first machine was a Commodore Vic-20... with 3.5K of user RAM and built in BASIC.
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Mookie Baylock wrote:
your's is the ability to think that there is no coding without an IDE.
If you read what I said properly you'll see that's not what I said. When I started programming I had to write it out by hand to start with so I'm perfectly at home using everything from the command line to a sophisticated IDE. I prefer the IDE because it makes my working life easier & gives me access to other useful tool sand technologies all in one easy to use package and because I have not got some outdated and ridiculously romantic notion about development. I am a professional and have been since probably before you were even a zygote. Fine, if you want to use the command line or notepad, go for it - it's great when you're a script kiddie 'coding' php or some other scripting language. For real coding, you can't beat a well made and easy to use IDE. ;P
R. Giskard Reventlov wrote:
For real coding
yep, you two really make a pair. talk about "if you read what I said"... if age is your best argument to defend your point of view instead of understanding that to some "languages" a IDE it's just clutter and to others it's a good handy tool, well, keep talking to your friend, you're a match. besides, this zygote didn't belittled someone experienced opinion based on their age, because, if you're older than me you should know that rationality beats that every day. maybe you failed to learn that on those long long years programming real code. that might be another problem you have. signs of oversized ego belittling everything you don't like so you feel better about what you do. but your're not alone in that. some guys buy oversized cars to solve the same problem. anyway, this is me guessing stuff about you like you did about me. you might even be a good person just with a rage. I will stop now, because you know how they say, you will beat this zygote in experience. *grins*
Err...say what?
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if you depend on a IDE, you have problems. if he is that extremist that chooses a solution over a IDE, he has one too. I almost never use IDE's basically because I have no time to lose learning all the tricks I already know on my text editor. I really hate them for the dependency they create on my colleagues that can't think out a bug without an IDE. the almost part its the technological part. if I'm codding java or c# I'll use one. if I'm codding php or javascript, I'm faster at my text editor and I'm used to deal with the bugs on a different way. this is personal to me. my mind got used to this way over the years and changing it now would cost a lot to me and my employee. maybe that guy who told you that has the same problem. his difference from me is the lack of willingness to try. because if my boss tells me use this or that language, I'll put the learning of the IDE on cost of learning the language (win win for me). so, the lack of willingness to try, thats a problem he has. your's is the ability to think that there is no coding without an IDE. you would probably fail at some exams I had when I wasn't even at college (coding tests, yes). :)
Err...say what?
Mookie Baylock wrote:
I almost never use IDE's basically because I have no time to lose learning all the tricks I already know on my text editor.
That's the fallacy of motion: you're too busy digging that ditch with a shovel to learn how to use the backhoe, even though the combined time to learn the backhoe controls and use it to dig the ditch is less than the time it will take you to dig the ditch by hand. But hey, you've already got the shovel in your hand, and the backhoe is way over there by the shed, so let's just mumble something about how real men don't need machines to do their work and get to it.