Face my enemy...
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bwallan wrote:
artistic talent
I have a Bachelor Common Arts and Cultural Sciences as well as a Master Media and Journalism, giving me the title of Master of Arts :D Programming is mostly rules though. It's never a good thing when I find 'artistic code' :sigh: And I know some math majors who really aren't the best programmers :D
Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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Artistic talent is normally a good indication of creativity. That and good math skills are what we've found yields the best software developer / programmer. If I require a "plugger", I can hire an Engineer.
bwallan wrote:
Artistic talent is normally a good indication of creativity. That and good math skills are what we've found yields the best software developer / programmer
What kind of application will this person code? And is a BSc or MSc degree required to be hired?
Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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bwallan wrote:
Artistic talent is normally a good indication of creativity. That and good math skills are what we've found yields the best software developer / programmer
What kind of application will this person code? And is a BSc or MSc degree required to be hired?
Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
Pretty much anything an Engineer can think up for which to write software. Everything from converting a sophisticated Excel spreadsheet to a corporate application to writing a simulation model for economics or some process in the Oil & Gas industry. We normally hire B.Sc. Computer Science grads and offer funding to complete a M.Sc. if the individual wishes to go that route. But a smart, creative B.Sc. individual can work wonders!
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Pretty much anything an Engineer can think up for which to write software. Everything from converting a sophisticated Excel spreadsheet to a corporate application to writing a simulation model for economics or some process in the Oil & Gas industry. We normally hire B.Sc. Computer Science grads and offer funding to complete a M.Sc. if the individual wishes to go that route. But a smart, creative B.Sc. individual can work wonders!
bwallan wrote:
But a smart, creative B.Sc. individual can work wonders!
Any smart individual with a passion can work wonders ;) Formal schooling means nothing to me. Well, it means you've been able to stand school for a couple of years, which is actually bad enough as it is. Unfortunately school means a lot to other people (like you) though :sigh:
Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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bwallan wrote:
But a smart, creative B.Sc. individual can work wonders!
Any smart individual with a passion can work wonders ;) Formal schooling means nothing to me. Well, it means you've been able to stand school for a couple of years, which is actually bad enough as it is. Unfortunately school means a lot to other people (like you) though :sigh:
Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
Formal schooling means the world! It means a person has the capacity to think and a solid knowledge base as a foundation on which to add experience. I've fired far too many "experts" that think experience is the total package. It isn't! As for your "couple of years", a university degree is four years. A couple of years indicates a technical school certificate which means close to nothing in our organization(s). It might be good for an automobile mechanic, electrician or plumber but not for computer science!
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Formal schooling means the world! It means a person has the capacity to think and a solid knowledge base as a foundation on which to add experience. I've fired far too many "experts" that think experience is the total package. It isn't! As for your "couple of years", a university degree is four years. A couple of years indicates a technical school certificate which means close to nothing in our organization(s). It might be good for an automobile mechanic, electrician or plumber but not for computer science!
bwallan wrote:
Formal schooling means the world! It means a person has the capacity to think and a solid knowledge base as a foundation on which to add experience.
I guess I have to agree with you there... I know very few people who haven't enjoyed formal schooling, but could still be considered "smart" or "bright". Although I know very few people who haven't had formal schooling, mostly some old folks. And in the Netherlands we have 'levels' of schooling (kind of like attending school at low, medium or high difficulty) and there's usually a clear distinction in "smarts" between people from different levels of education. Of course I can't say if better schooling makes smarter or if smarter people attend better schools ;) That said, proper formal education does not guarantee a good programmer. I know people with a university degree in programming, physics or maths, yet they just don't seem to understand programming.
bwallan wrote:
experience is the total package. It isn't!
Couldn't agree more! I've worked with a "senior developer with over eight years of experience" and we got into a lot of arguments because I surpassed him after a year of experience (which, of course, he didn't like). I should add I was really a better programmer after a year, coming from zero, and this isn't me being an arrogant jerk. The problem is he had been doing the same thing for eight years, which doesn't equal eight years of experience. I see that a lot. Working for x time in a certain field does not give you x time experience. Currently I have over five years of experience and some formal schooling (studying at Open University, where, as you can read, I'm stuck on maths). Additionally I got me some Microsoft certificates (to make up for that lack of formal schooling) in C# and SQL Server. I wonder, based on that, would you (purely theoretical) consider me for a job interview?
Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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bwallan wrote:
Formal schooling means the world! It means a person has the capacity to think and a solid knowledge base as a foundation on which to add experience.
I guess I have to agree with you there... I know very few people who haven't enjoyed formal schooling, but could still be considered "smart" or "bright". Although I know very few people who haven't had formal schooling, mostly some old folks. And in the Netherlands we have 'levels' of schooling (kind of like attending school at low, medium or high difficulty) and there's usually a clear distinction in "smarts" between people from different levels of education. Of course I can't say if better schooling makes smarter or if smarter people attend better schools ;) That said, proper formal education does not guarantee a good programmer. I know people with a university degree in programming, physics or maths, yet they just don't seem to understand programming.
bwallan wrote:
experience is the total package. It isn't!
Couldn't agree more! I've worked with a "senior developer with over eight years of experience" and we got into a lot of arguments because I surpassed him after a year of experience (which, of course, he didn't like). I should add I was really a better programmer after a year, coming from zero, and this isn't me being an arrogant jerk. The problem is he had been doing the same thing for eight years, which doesn't equal eight years of experience. I see that a lot. Working for x time in a certain field does not give you x time experience. Currently I have over five years of experience and some formal schooling (studying at Open University, where, as you can read, I'm stuck on maths). Additionally I got me some Microsoft certificates (to make up for that lack of formal schooling) in C# and SQL Server. I wonder, based on that, would you (purely theoretical) consider me for a job interview?
Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
Sander, We only hire IT personnel with at least a B.Sc. in Computer Science and a strong indicator for artistic talent. We want a "creative/intelligent" person with a formal Computer Science education; someone to whom we can assign a project, and have him/her design a solution and carry it through to a final application (or system). Add the experience gained from varied development projects and you have a powerful development team. Maybe we are being narrow-minded? But in the 40+ years I've been in this business this approach has worked out the best for us and people we've hired, some of whom have been with us for 30+ years. bwa
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Sander, We only hire IT personnel with at least a B.Sc. in Computer Science and a strong indicator for artistic talent. We want a "creative/intelligent" person with a formal Computer Science education; someone to whom we can assign a project, and have him/her design a solution and carry it through to a final application (or system). Add the experience gained from varied development projects and you have a powerful development team. Maybe we are being narrow-minded? But in the 40+ years I've been in this business this approach has worked out the best for us and people we've hired, some of whom have been with us for 30+ years. bwa
bwallan wrote:
Maybe we are being narrow-minded?
Well, a little if you think that only people with at least a B.Sc. can be good programmers, but I'm sure that's not what you're saying :) In fact I now work at a company with the same policy (I guess I only got in because they were in dire need of people). Their reason is because if someone messes up at a customer at least my company can say the person has all the right education. In my case the customer could complain that I'm a friggin art major coming to do their IT! I get that. Compare it to other professions, like lawyers, doctors, pilots... A degree is necessary by law to work in those fields! I guess we're lucky (well, I'm lucky) that anyone can work in IT. If you can get enough educated employees it's a luxury that you can only hire those. You've frustrated me a little because I'm pretty sure I'd do good at your company (well, I don't know what you do, but let's say for a moment it's something I know), but I'm not getting in because I lack the required education. Let's put it this way, at my current company I'm the only one without technical/IT education, but in no way am I behind in knowledge (well, some people know more about some stuff, but I know more about other stuff). At my previous company I was also the only one without a technical/IT degree, but I left because I was done learning and I was the one doing the teaching! It's all the more reason to get that degree though... Which is going to take me about ten more years next to a full time job etc. X| Thanks, I've found it very interesting to hear your point of view on this topic.
Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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bwallan wrote:
Maybe we are being narrow-minded?
Well, a little if you think that only people with at least a B.Sc. can be good programmers, but I'm sure that's not what you're saying :) In fact I now work at a company with the same policy (I guess I only got in because they were in dire need of people). Their reason is because if someone messes up at a customer at least my company can say the person has all the right education. In my case the customer could complain that I'm a friggin art major coming to do their IT! I get that. Compare it to other professions, like lawyers, doctors, pilots... A degree is necessary by law to work in those fields! I guess we're lucky (well, I'm lucky) that anyone can work in IT. If you can get enough educated employees it's a luxury that you can only hire those. You've frustrated me a little because I'm pretty sure I'd do good at your company (well, I don't know what you do, but let's say for a moment it's something I know), but I'm not getting in because I lack the required education. Let's put it this way, at my current company I'm the only one without technical/IT education, but in no way am I behind in knowledge (well, some people know more about some stuff, but I know more about other stuff). At my previous company I was also the only one without a technical/IT degree, but I left because I was done learning and I was the one doing the teaching! It's all the more reason to get that degree though... Which is going to take me about ten more years next to a full time job etc. X| Thanks, I've found it very interesting to hear your point of view on this topic.
Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
"You've frustrated me a little because I'm pretty sure I'd do good at your company (well, I don't know what you do, but let's say for a moment it's something I know), but I'm not getting in because I lack the required education." I don't know what you do at your current company but I know a proficiency in math & physics, system analysis/design, etc. is a necessary requirement in our area of expertise, i.e.: reservoir simulation models, refinery modelling, mechanical vibration analysis, oil & gas economics simulation models, etc. In most cases a two year Technical degree simply doesn't work out well...
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Nevertheless mathematics can be fascinating. I'll read your blog about it with pleasure. Unfortunately, I can't help for the LaTex-plugin thing :s
I never finish anyth
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phil.o wrote:
Nevertheless mathematics can be fascinating.
For me, it is a great spectator sport.
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
