Why do MFC programmers love dialog based apps so much?
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Kant wrote: Are we smelling new article Nish? Maybe after June :-) Though I dunno how many people are still interested enough in MFC! :~ Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
Not everyone is .NETing, Nish. Pavel Sonork 100.15206
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So often you see people develop a dialog based app, then they add a menu to it, a status bar, make it resizable, make it scrollable, put a view inside it, add a document save-load option etc... Then why did they even go for a dialog based app? What they needed was an SDI app with a CFormView derived view. It's amazing how they take a dialog app and do everything to try and make it behave like an SDI app :-) Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
Mooohhhahaha! I always tease my colleague for making MFC dialog apps. -- Some of them wants to abuse you Some of the wants to be abused by you
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I'm sometimes surprised when people don't check the derivations. I once watched a colleague spend an afternoon trying to implement serialisation for a class derived from CString (god knows why) and driving himself nuts trying to work out why the compiler kept spitting out 'unfriendly' error messages. Eventually I took pity and told him that CString ain't derived from COBject, therefore the whole serialisation framework is missing key pieces. Thing is, the source code is there, the headers are certainly there, why not take a look sometimes? Rob Manderson http://www.mindprobes.net
Rob Manderson wrote: Thing is, the source code is there, the headers are certainly there, why not take a look sometimes? There's no "grep cult" in the Windows community. :) -- Some of them wants to abuse you Some of the wants to be abused by you
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Maybe because with an SDI app you have screw around with a derived CFrameWnd, a derived CFormView, and deal with the idiotic (in my opinion) document/view architecture, either ignoring it (which isn't easy, BTW) or using it (which isn't smart, in my book), whereas a CDialog is simpler because MFC and the high school kids that wrote it don't get as much in the way of doing what you really want to do, which is get something working, instead of cursing at Microsoft's subversive plot to bog all programmers down in the quagmire of MFC while they (Microsoft) take over the world writing code in Pascal??? http://www.pseudodictionary.com/ramblerant[^] :-D Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"What idiotic in document/view architecture? Please enlighten.
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Rob Manderson wrote: Thing is, the source code is there, the headers are certainly there, why not take a look sometimes? There's no "grep cult" in the Windows community. :) -- Some of them wants to abuse you Some of the wants to be abused by you
How did you know that deep in my past I had some Unix experience? ;) But seriously, I'm writing applications based on someone's framework. If they provide the source code doesn't it make sense to have a look at the quality of the code? If they don't provide the source code at least let's look at all the constants and see if they missed something in the docs that maybe I need to know about ;) Rob Manderson http://www.mindprobes.net
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How did you know that deep in my past I had some Unix experience? ;) But seriously, I'm writing applications based on someone's framework. If they provide the source code doesn't it make sense to have a look at the quality of the code? If they don't provide the source code at least let's look at all the constants and see if they missed something in the docs that maybe I need to know about ;) Rob Manderson http://www.mindprobes.net
After posting I had some further thoughts. If you've looked at any of my code (hint, lex and yacc demo) you'll see that I do a LOT of ASSERT and ASSERT_KINDOF tests, and AfxIsValidString etc kind of tests throughout the my code. Rarely do I hit a case when the tests fail on code that I wrote that uses code that I wrote because my mind is in that problem space. But if I'm calling a function someone else wrote then by definition my mind isn't in the exact same problem space as the author of that function. So I look at what they wrote and more importantly what they're validating about what I pass as arguments. Do they trust me as a caller? Do they expect me to pass a buffer to which they'll write yet not require I pass the size of the buffer (and make damn sure they don't overwrite my buffer)? You can bracket calls to code with exception handling all you like but if the third party function you're calling does stupid things then you must expect to suffer from unexpected side-effects and odd bugs. Overall, by that standard, I think MFC does a pretty good job of protecting me from my own assumptions about their framework. Rob Manderson http://www.mindprobes.net
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.S.Rod. wrote: - WIN32-style app programming heritage How so? I dont think Win32/SDK coding was dialog-oriented at all! .S.Rod. wrote: fear that the CView-derived objects are such odd objects that it removes a lot of freedom This is a very likely reason. .S.Rod. wrote: MSDN doesn't make clear enough the fact that the CView class derives CWnd Oh! I never noticed that. I always took for granted that everyone would assume CWnd inheritance for CView, CDialog etc... Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
Nishant S wrote: How so? I dont think Win32/SDK coding was dialog-oriented at all! Not strictly speaking, but what you end up to very often is a mere ::DialogBoxParam() function call with a reference to the .rc dlg template, which is more or less what we do with a CDialog-based app. Nishant S wrote: Oh! I never noticed that. I always took for granted that everyone would assume CWnd inheritance for CView, CDialog etc... If I were a dev lead, I would prevent anyone from writing serious MFC code before they have read and learned Charles'Petzold bible. Unfortunately, in this mad software industry, it's more about in how little time you get that damn popup box ready, rather than writing a popup able to accomodate further requirements (especially changing specs! :(( ).
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Haven't you noticed that the Windows API uses the Pascal calling convention? It must be because Windows is written in Pascal... :P Ryan Being little and getting pushed around by big guys all my life I guess I compensate by pushing electrons and holes around. What a bully I am, but I do enjoy making subatomic particles hop at my bidding - Roger Wright (2nd April 2003, The Lounge)
You are beginning to really scare me now. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
Warning Link to the minion's animation, do not use. It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
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Heh I agreed with every thing up till the last line !! Pascal ?? I hope you are not serious ? Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
Warning Link to the minion's animation, do not use. It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
Windows 3.1 was written in Pascal, I believe. Other than that, yes, I was kidding! Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files" -
Rob Manderson wrote: Gee Marc, tell us what you really think LOL Rob, I think you just silenced the un-silencable Marc Clifton. Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
No, I went to bed. :-D Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files" -
Poor planning. cheers, Chris Maunder
I think it could also be blamed on a combination of feature creep, available time remaining on the schedule, and management not wanted to admit they were wrong about the initial design and that the programmer writing the app was right all along. You may think I'm being a bit sarcastic about that last item, but I've seen it happen more often than not. ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
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Maybe because with an SDI app you have screw around with a derived CFrameWnd, a derived CFormView, and deal with the idiotic (in my opinion) document/view architecture, either ignoring it (which isn't easy, BTW) or using it (which isn't smart, in my book), whereas a CDialog is simpler because MFC and the high school kids that wrote it don't get as much in the way of doing what you really want to do, which is get something working, instead of cursing at Microsoft's subversive plot to bog all programmers down in the quagmire of MFC while they (Microsoft) take over the world writing code in Pascal??? http://www.pseudodictionary.com/ramblerant[^] :-D Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"I don't think MFC is a bad thing. If you go in with your eyes open concerning it's shortcomings, you can make much more use of it's strengths. ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
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So often you see people develop a dialog based app, then they add a menu to it, a status bar, make it resizable, make it scrollable, put a view inside it, add a document save-load option etc... Then why did they even go for a dialog based app? What they needed was an SDI app with a CFormView derived view. It's amazing how they take a dialog app and do everything to try and make it behave like an SDI app :-) Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
I have been writing MFC apps for many years. I have yet to do a dialog based one! In my time I have only done 1 SDI type app as well (back in VC 1.5). These days I always stick to MFC MDI as I know it so well. I am scared of dialog based apps. :omg: Roger Allen Sonork 100.10016 Were you different as a kid? Did you ever say "Ooohhh, shiny red" even once? - Paul Watson 11-February-2003
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Mooohhhahaha! I always tease my colleague for making MFC dialog apps. -- Some of them wants to abuse you Some of the wants to be abused by you
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Mooohhhahaha Have you been on the milk and cheese again? :suss:
David Wulff
"i said no to noddy like 20 times but in the end i just couldnt say no to him anymore" - Wishful Thinking
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So often you see people develop a dialog based app, then they add a menu to it, a status bar, make it resizable, make it scrollable, put a view inside it, add a document save-load option etc... Then why did they even go for a dialog based app? What they needed was an SDI app with a CFormView derived view. It's amazing how they take a dialog app and do everything to try and make it behave like an SDI app :-) Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
:)Probaable reasons... 1. When people migrate from VB to VC, dialog based app is (comparatively)easier way to shift. 2. When Document-View architecture not required in project. Anand
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How did you know that deep in my past I had some Unix experience? ;) But seriously, I'm writing applications based on someone's framework. If they provide the source code doesn't it make sense to have a look at the quality of the code? If they don't provide the source code at least let's look at all the constants and see if they missed something in the docs that maybe I need to know about ;) Rob Manderson http://www.mindprobes.net
Having the source code for someone elses library/application is great for the reasons you mention. And it is very much possible to grep around to see what the hell is going on. :-D (Very valueble indeed!) -- In the land of the blind, be king! Some day, Dominion, some say prayers, now I say mine.
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.S.Rod. wrote: - WIN32-style app programming heritage How so? I dont think Win32/SDK coding was dialog-oriented at all! .S.Rod. wrote: fear that the CView-derived objects are such odd objects that it removes a lot of freedom This is a very likely reason. .S.Rod. wrote: MSDN doesn't make clear enough the fact that the CView class derives CWnd Oh! I never noticed that. I always took for granted that everyone would assume CWnd inheritance for CView, CDialog etc... Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
Nishant S wrote: I always took for granted that everyone would assume CWnd inheritance for CView, CDialog CDocument... :rolleyes: Or anyway, that error seems to show up in questions rather a lot. ---
Not one of them, IMO, should be called beer. Maybe malt flavored mineral water. - Jörgen Sigvardsson on Bud, Coors and Miller
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Hello, the CPians around the world. ;) Chris Maunder wrote: Poor planning. Humm, I don't believe that Chris Maunder wrote this answer.:eek: Simply saying, if we keep using only dialog base application by MFC, this wastes time so much. Try to use VB to do this unless we don't use C or C++ library. :omg: If we write SDI or MDI by MFC very well, the dialog is only used to set the property of some data, I believe. Otherwise, we never feel the beauty of MFC. (I don't read the other's message in detail, so ...?) -Masaaki Onishi (eCoolSoft)- ASP.NET Web and Windows Application Development by C# and MFC. eCoolWebPanelBar(BETA) is availabe now. http://www.ecoolsoft.com
:) My facetious answer was meant to convey the situation where a programemer may decide that they want a quick app - so they start with a dialog based app and work from there. Then they realise they have a bunch of options to offer, so they shoe-horn in a menu. Then they decide to add status info, hence a statusbar - and on it goes. Obviously not a common scenario for most programmers but I do remember doing exactly this when I was first starting out ;) cheers, Chris Maunder
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Poor planning. cheers, Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote: Poor planning. I thought it was no planning that caused it :) -BestSnowman
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Just FYI, you can add this code to the CFormView derived class's OnInitialUpdate function to remove the "recessed" border on the SDI app:
ModifyStyleEx( WS_EX_CLIENTEDGE, 0, SWP_DRAWFRAME );
Chris Richardson You can stash and you can seize In dreams begin, responsibilities
U2 - Acrobat[^]
Stop being PC and accounting for everyone and his momma's timeframe. Just enjoy your :beer: - Rohit Sinha in the content-challenged thread
