Should I consider going back to school?
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So here is the deal. I have 22 years of experience in IT, with the last 15 in software development. I'm up to date on many of the latest technologies and constantly learning new things (thank you Code Project for your help with that). I have recently started looking for a new job after having worked at a place for 7 years doing C# .Net programming with a hint of PHP/HTML. Of the places I've looked, I have found that they "must" have a B.A. in Computer Science with 3 years of experience. Does my 22 years with 15 years in software design and development not count for anything? Should I go back to school to have them "teach" me things I already know just to have the paper that says I could pass some classes?
If company wants you to have a paper and sneezes at your experience, you don't wanna work for them. Really, you don't. You would regret it from day one of employment.
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demotis wrote:
So here is the deal. I have 22 years of experience in IT, with the last 15 in software development. I'm up to date on many of the latest technologies and constantly learning new things (thank you Code Project for your help with that). I have recently started looking for a new job after having worked at a place for 7 years doing C# .Net programming with a hint of PHP/HTML.
With that amount of experience, I would say you're far better qualified than any new graduate, no matter how good their degree. I dropped out of university over 30 years ago, and although the first couple of jobs were hard to get, and quite low level, once I had a few years experience most of the companies I applied to were very keen to take me on. I can't recall any of them questioning my lack of a degree when compared to even a few years of relevant experience. It's quite likely the companies you're looking at simply put that clause in to discourage young, inexperienced, applicants. I'd recommend applying, and making sure your CV / resume emphasises your depth of experience. eta : any employer who insists on a degree (as seems to be the case, reading more of the thread) and will pay an inexperienced graduate more than a seasoned engineer / developer isn't the sort of company I'd consider working for...
Days spent at sea are not deducted from one's alloted span - Phoenician proverb
molesworth wrote:
... any employer who insists on a degree (as seems to be the case, reading more of the thread) and will pay an inexperienced graduate more than a seasoned engineer / developer isn't the sort of company I'd consider working for...
I have decided to go ahead and get a degree in CS with a emphasis on Programming. Actually, I'm going to get just enough to be a Computer Science, but I'm going to concentrate on Theory so I'm not bored to death making "Hello World" programs and having to explain the difference between an object and Class. With that said.... You are 100% right. A 4 year degree with 3 years experience? In a best case that's only 7 years experience. I got double that, and mine is real world, on the job experience. But, apparently we are in the minority.
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So here is the deal. I have 22 years of experience in IT, with the last 15 in software development. I'm up to date on many of the latest technologies and constantly learning new things (thank you Code Project for your help with that). I have recently started looking for a new job after having worked at a place for 7 years doing C# .Net programming with a hint of PHP/HTML. Of the places I've looked, I have found that they "must" have a B.A. in Computer Science with 3 years of experience. Does my 22 years with 15 years in software design and development not count for anything? Should I go back to school to have them "teach" me things I already know just to have the paper that says I could pass some classes?
This almost has to be measured person-by-person depending upon your background, skill level, and career goals; however, you make one large assumption that may not be true - that school will teach you things you already know. I know plenty of people with over 20 years of experience that are mystified by "memory overflow" errors. Those individuals never took the time to actually understand the underlying principles of what they did and it held them back. That said, school is expensive and time-consuming. It will require tremendous dedication on your part to fulfill the degree requirements and work full time (if that is what you are planning to do). I followed this path myself many years ago and I didn't regret it, but I also look back and wonder how I managed it all working full time, taking 2 classes per semester, and raising a young family.
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So here is the deal. I have 22 years of experience in IT, with the last 15 in software development. I'm up to date on many of the latest technologies and constantly learning new things (thank you Code Project for your help with that). I have recently started looking for a new job after having worked at a place for 7 years doing C# .Net programming with a hint of PHP/HTML. Of the places I've looked, I have found that they "must" have a B.A. in Computer Science with 3 years of experience. Does my 22 years with 15 years in software design and development not count for anything? Should I go back to school to have them "teach" me things I already know just to have the paper that says I could pass some classes?
It so much depends on yourself - what you have learnt through those 15 years. I've met quite a few non-academics who have learnt what to do, but with a very vaugue understanding of why they have to (or ought to) do it that way. (As in Geek & Poke: TDD [^].) I was teaching for a few years at a tech college, where we had a terrible time 'deprogramming' some of those self-educated guys coming to us for a degree, 110% confident that they knew all the 'right' ways ... that were not. Then there are those who have learned from their experienced colleagues, and picked up the good practices, and also know the real world problems to be solved (which those coming directly from high school certainly do NOT). They can be the finest students there are, worth their weight in gold, especially in group projects, and even at lectures, asking exactly the right questions to pinpoint the essentials. When young people ask me for advice about education, my recommendation is: Get yourself a lower degree to learn some academic principles and methods, and quite a bit about practical work, 'the craft'. That ensures that you, according to a systematic plan, have been 'diciplined' to solve problems in a reasonably orderly manner. Here in Norway, we have these three year engineering schools not classified as universities; they educate engineers to do engineering, not to do paperwork. Then go out and see if you can handle it well - you probably can. If you are an academic by nature, you will often ask yourself lots of 'why's, you would like to know the underlaying ideas and concepts for everything from design methods to code patterns to whathaveyou. Then, after a few working years, you enter a university to learn the theory, the principles. You have the background to understand why, to ask the right questions, to know how to apply the theoretical knowledge - for all of this: in contrast to your fellow students who haven't had a single working day within that professional field. You will gain a tremendous lot more from the academic theory than they will, because you will know why. But you don't have to know all the theory. I have had colleagues with 3 year basic engineering only, but their mind has been so 'academic' that the have picked up more than enough of the theory on their own. And they have been truly excellent prac
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So here is the deal. I have 22 years of experience in IT, with the last 15 in software development. I'm up to date on many of the latest technologies and constantly learning new things (thank you Code Project for your help with that). I have recently started looking for a new job after having worked at a place for 7 years doing C# .Net programming with a hint of PHP/HTML. Of the places I've looked, I have found that they "must" have a B.A. in Computer Science with 3 years of experience. Does my 22 years with 15 years in software design and development not count for anything? Should I go back to school to have them "teach" me things I already know just to have the paper that says I could pass some classes?
It so much depends on yourself - what you have learnt through those 15 years. I've met quite a few non-academics who have learnt what to do, but with a very vaugue understanding of why they have to (or ought to) do it that way. (As in Geek & Poke: TDD [^].) I was teaching for a few years at a tech college, where we had a terrible time 'deprogramming' some of those self-educated guys coming to us for a degree, 110% confident that they knew all the 'right' ways ... that were not. Then there are those who have learned from their experienced colleagues, and picked up the good practices, and also know the real world problems to be solved (which those coming directly from high school certainly do NOT). They can be the finest students there are, worth their weight in gold, especially in group projects, and even at lectures, asking exactly the right questions to pinpoint the essentials. When young people ask me for advice about education, my recommendation is: Get yourself a lower degree to learn some academic principles and methods, and quite a bit about practical work, 'the craft'. That ensures that you, according to a systematic plan, have been 'diciplined' to solve problems in a reasonably orderly manner. Here in Norway, we have these three year engineering schools not classified as universities; they educate engineers to do engineering, not to do paperwork. Then go out and see if you can handle it well - you probably can. If you are an academic by nature, you will often ask yourself lots of 'why's, you would like to know the underlaying ideas and concepts for everything from design methods to code patterns to whathaveyou. Then, after a few working years, you enter a university to learn the theory, the principles. You have the background to understand why, to ask the right questions, to know how to apply the theoretical knowledge - for all of this: in contrast to your fellow students who haven't had a single working day within that professional field. You will gain a tremendous lot more from the academic theory than they will, because you will know why. But you don't have to know all the theory. I have had colleagues with 3 year basic engineering only, but their mind has been so 'academic' that the have picked up more than enough of the theory on their own. And they have been truly excellent prac
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So here is the deal. I have 22 years of experience in IT, with the last 15 in software development. I'm up to date on many of the latest technologies and constantly learning new things (thank you Code Project for your help with that). I have recently started looking for a new job after having worked at a place for 7 years doing C# .Net programming with a hint of PHP/HTML. Of the places I've looked, I have found that they "must" have a B.A. in Computer Science with 3 years of experience. Does my 22 years with 15 years in software design and development not count for anything? Should I go back to school to have them "teach" me things I already know just to have the paper that says I could pass some classes?
BA degrees aren't special, that requirement is just used as an applicant filter. In this case, your experience trumps the degree requirement many times over, so if you've been practicing many of the technologies they need, apply anyway.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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So here is the deal. I have 22 years of experience in IT, with the last 15 in software development. I'm up to date on many of the latest technologies and constantly learning new things (thank you Code Project for your help with that). I have recently started looking for a new job after having worked at a place for 7 years doing C# .Net programming with a hint of PHP/HTML. Of the places I've looked, I have found that they "must" have a B.A. in Computer Science with 3 years of experience. Does my 22 years with 15 years in software design and development not count for anything? Should I go back to school to have them "teach" me things I already know just to have the paper that says I could pass some classes?
It seems most self-tough developers know about 98% of what need to develop most software application. It is the last 2% that employer are after with developers with college degree. Those 2% are the abstract theories, algorithms, patterns, politics, and communications. It is those with the extra 2% that develop compilers, operating systems, and library frameworks to be use by others. Getting a BA/BS in computer science will give you that extra 2%.
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I also hate school too but employee requires degree as they control what pay to give and chances for promotion and not everyone is lucky. I have to beat HR and recruiters as they only recognizes degree :((
Seems like your beginner luck has ended then ;p
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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It seems most self-tough developers know about 98% of what need to develop most software application. It is the last 2% that employer are after with developers with college degree. Those 2% are the abstract theories, algorithms, patterns, politics, and communications. It is those with the extra 2% that develop compilers, operating systems, and library frameworks to be use by others. Getting a BA/BS in computer science will give you that extra 2%.
As you say: 98% of the 'what'. Far less of the 'why'. 'Develop compilers' - you don't have to develop a compiler to need a parser. Very few self-taught programmers can write a decent parser (or define the grammar of the input), not even a recursive-descent one. But we need it all the time. Anyone can make their function publicly available as an API. That is not to define a decent module interface. Anyone can declare a struct or a class, but defining the right structure of object classes is a different matter. Choosing a suitable algorithm, data flow, pattern of interaction, protocol structure, layering of both code and protocols, ... You don't learn these things just by trial and error. You learn it from someone. They may be your experienced colleauges, if you are lucky. It might be easier to get it from someone who knows how to teach such matters. If your employer has sent you to a selection of good courses (not those 'how to use the product we sold you, or want to sell to you' courses!) you may have it. If not, then might find it in the educational system.
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So here is the deal. I have 22 years of experience in IT, with the last 15 in software development. I'm up to date on many of the latest technologies and constantly learning new things (thank you Code Project for your help with that). I have recently started looking for a new job after having worked at a place for 7 years doing C# .Net programming with a hint of PHP/HTML. Of the places I've looked, I have found that they "must" have a B.A. in Computer Science with 3 years of experience. Does my 22 years with 15 years in software design and development not count for anything? Should I go back to school to have them "teach" me things I already know just to have the paper that says I could pass some classes?
I haven't read through the entire thread to see if anyone else has given this advice but trust me, apply anyway. It costs you what, maybe another cover letter? My experience is not so different from your own. Admittedly I spent most of my early dev career in big aerospace (Boeing, GE, TRW, etc.) so I guess your mileage may vary. But I can tell you that every position I held required a degree. Smart companies will still want to talk to you. I took the interviews, got the jobs, made the same money as everyone else. The requirement is usually to weed out the timid. Go for it.
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I have applied for some that offer "or equivalent experience", but seriously the position that I really wanted wouldn't even consider my resume because my degree was not in Computer Science. Now that I think about it, I should have pointed out in the first post. I have a degree, but it was geared toward Law. I found that I really didn't care about Law as much as my mother wanted me to so I just started working in IT and have never looked back.
There's always simple solution. Add to your CV: i>"I sue people who discriminate against me because my degree is not in computing"
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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So here is the deal. I have 22 years of experience in IT, with the last 15 in software development. I'm up to date on many of the latest technologies and constantly learning new things (thank you Code Project for your help with that). I have recently started looking for a new job after having worked at a place for 7 years doing C# .Net programming with a hint of PHP/HTML. Of the places I've looked, I have found that they "must" have a B.A. in Computer Science with 3 years of experience. Does my 22 years with 15 years in software design and development not count for anything? Should I go back to school to have them "teach" me things I already know just to have the paper that says I could pass some classes?
The decision, obviously, is on you, but I found myself in a similar situation several years back. I have 28 years of experience, and I realized that getting a degree after so much time working without one would demonstrate dedication and tenacity, and not just serve to satisfy a qualification item. So, I hooked up with WGU. They are 100% online and utilize a competency-based system (pass/fail) instead of the legacy graded system. Along with the fully-accredited degree, I received several certifications (some which amounted to squat) and it makes my resume look pretty darn impressive. If you investigate and decide to go with WGU, drop me a line so we can say I referred you to the school. :-D
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So here is the deal. I have 22 years of experience in IT, with the last 15 in software development. I'm up to date on many of the latest technologies and constantly learning new things (thank you Code Project for your help with that). I have recently started looking for a new job after having worked at a place for 7 years doing C# .Net programming with a hint of PHP/HTML. Of the places I've looked, I have found that they "must" have a B.A. in Computer Science with 3 years of experience. Does my 22 years with 15 years in software design and development not count for anything? Should I go back to school to have them "teach" me things I already know just to have the paper that says I could pass some classes?
I'd like to start by pointing out that there's a marked difference between a BA and a BS. Bachelor of Arts degrees typically have much lower requirements, namely the absence of a secondary science. I myself have a Bachelor of Science, with my secondary science being Biology. In college I was strongly pressured to make it Physics (with no valid explanation given,) but since my current employ is in the medical field, it certainly paid off. In my opinion, any place that 'requires' a degree, but is willing to accept a BA, is not some place where someone with 22 years of experience is likely to be happy. With regard to the degree itself, it is always better to have more credentials on your CV/Resume than less. However, given your length of experience, it is unlikely that a BA/BS will make any difference in your pay; you may just need to negotiate a little harder. I also doubt that, at this point, with 15 years development experience, a BA/BS program is going to teach you much you don't already know. TL;DR: The degree will likely provide some benefit to you, but is unlikely to be worth the time, effort, and money.
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So here is the deal. I have 22 years of experience in IT, with the last 15 in software development. I'm up to date on many of the latest technologies and constantly learning new things (thank you Code Project for your help with that). I have recently started looking for a new job after having worked at a place for 7 years doing C# .Net programming with a hint of PHP/HTML. Of the places I've looked, I have found that they "must" have a B.A. in Computer Science with 3 years of experience. Does my 22 years with 15 years in software design and development not count for anything? Should I go back to school to have them "teach" me things I already know just to have the paper that says I could pass some classes?
Years ago, I would have said to get the degree. I was one of those guys who was out programming a peer who had a masters degree, and it was my first real job! I left and got my degree. I left a LOT of money on the table. I was somewhat bored by the courses, but I learned a lot, and I never looked back. I doubled my salary getting out. So, it DEPENDS. If you have a degree and can easily get another one, using your degree to cover your basics (reducing your effort to a single year, or 2 years part time). then "Consider" it. And you WANT to do it. Otherwise, no. But make sure your Resume makes up for the lack of THAT degree. BTW, having Any 4yr degree is a great start. (It shows you can follow directions, although nowadays it means you might need a safe space from people like me, LOL). If you REALLY want a specific job, be up front about the degree you have, and highlight the actual skills you have, and ALL of the courses, etc. Iterate the various places you spend time learning. As a hiring manager (in my old days), I would sort resumes by: Educ + Exp, Exp Only, Educ Only, Trash So, you are in the second pile, or the BOTTOM of the first pile in my system. Hiring is tight. Your resume should get you the first interview. If there is a strong gate keeper, find them and work with them. That is their wish list. If they get 3 resumes, they are going to read ALL 3 of them. HTH PS: One of the reasons for wanting the degree is easier communication. So display a willingness to do reading. We have a required reading list for all NEW developers. Some of the books are from old college courses. But it helps us to all use the same language.
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Seems like your beginner luck has ended then ;p
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
agree, time to go back to school to get degree and be a junior developer/software engineer for degree batch after degree. FYI degree and non degree benefit is different even if is same position of junior.
