Your next iPhone could cost more...
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Jeroen_R wrote:
Or are you in favour of government subsidies for the biggest earning company in the world?
Not at all. but when the taxing body (in this case Ireland) sets the rate and the tax payer (in this case Apple) pays it, I don't expect a 3rd party to come in 20+ years later and demand more money. If the EU wants to force Ireland to change the rate going forward that's Ireland's business.
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
Think about it like this, maybe that'll make more sense: Ireland gave state aid to a private company, and now that it turns out it's illegal state aid, the company has to pay it back. The form in which the state aid was given (in this case tax breaks, but it could just as well be cash or something else) is irrelevant.
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I'm going to the extreme here, because, it's what I do. But if a person went to a country where child prostitution was legal, does that make it any less unethical? Apple made this deal so that it wouldn't have to pay taxes in the United States, where they use the roads and other public benefits without paying their fair share because of this.
Actually, with this decision by the EU, Apple will likely now pay less taxes in the United States due to the tax credit they get for the increased taxes in Europe. This is why you'll find articles (such as this[^]) talking about the US Treasury being angry about this decision.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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You mean the Internal Revenue Service doesn't do that? :omg: The Inland Revenue can revue any tax info you submit and change how much you owe them up or down. Down is rare. :laugh:
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Well this just explained the gun ban! LOL
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Ireland and Apple agreed to a rate. Apple paid it and became the largest taxpayer in Ireland. Now... years later your lovely EU decides they want more money. How on Earth is that fair? Why would any business want to do business in Europe when they can retroactively change the rules.
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
That is not what happened. See the linked article in the first post. "Member states cannot give tax benefits to selected companies - this is illegal under EU state aid rules," said Commissioner Margrethe Vestager. Since Ireland is part of the EU, it has to abide by the EU rules.
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Rage wrote:
As for the rest, you are mixing up a lot of things.
Like what? Apple and Ireland agreed on a tax rate. Apple paid it. The EU (not Ireland) wants more money and retroactively changes the rules to get it. What exactly have I mixed up?
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
The EU didn't change rules retroactively, the rules Ireland offered to Apple were not legal according to EU rules. Therefore, Apple must pay some extra taxes to Ireland, and Ireland probably will get fined at some point by the EU.
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That is not what happened. See the linked article in the first post. "Member states cannot give tax benefits to selected companies - this is illegal under EU state aid rules," said Commissioner Margrethe Vestager. Since Ireland is part of the EU, it has to abide by the EU rules.
I happen to know for fact that certain member states give "incentives" to European corporations - I've seen it personally. These incentives took the form of free land, cash grants, low interest loans, etc... Illegal?
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
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Apple should repay Ireland 13bn euros, European Commission rules - BBC News[^] That's a serious tax bill! And it seems well deserved, hopefully it'll move on to Amazon and Google, who do the same thing, apparently. That really is ridiculous: 0.005% tax rate in 2014? I'd love that for me!
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"Cook described the Commission's decision as "unprecedented," adding that it will have a "profound and harmful effect" on investment and jobs in Europe" Sure will. Those 14 milliard in taxes will take care of a lot of salaries for a lot of people, and a lot of contracts for all the infrastructure-y stuff that governments do.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Actually, with this decision by the EU, Apple will likely now pay less taxes in the United States due to the tax credit they get for the increased taxes in Europe. This is why you'll find articles (such as this[^]) talking about the US Treasury being angry about this decision.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Of course they will. Their profits will be less, or like you noted, their product prices will go up. Tax is tax regardless of which country it's going to. The crux of it for me is that they essentially paid off the Irish government for a substantially reduced tax while they, the Irish, had none of the liabilities of having the physical company there. Don't get me wrong, I get what you're saying. What they did was 'legal'. What they really need to do is call this a fine for unethical business practice instead of back taxes. I do like the fact that the EU stands up to these big companies vs the US government where they've become more like an oligarchy.
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So you'll be OK if the UK tax man comes to your door and says "Sorry Griff but we're charging you back taxes despite the fact that you paid the exact amount owed at the time. We decided it really wasn't "fair"? Right? :laugh:
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
Does this mean Apple can come knocking on my door and tell me I owe them lots of money for the iPhone I bought two years ago?
We're philosophical about power outages here. A.C. come, A.C. go.
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Apple should repay Ireland 13bn euros, European Commission rules - BBC News[^] That's a serious tax bill! And it seems well deserved, hopefully it'll move on to Amazon and Google, who do the same thing, apparently. That really is ridiculous: 0.005% tax rate in 2014? I'd love that for me!
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It is perfectly ok that Irish govmnt has a sole right to agree whatever tax rate for any special company if it is ok for both parties. What is not ok is that money that Apple's company in Ireland earns, come from all over the European countries (common market) by selling Iphones, Ipads, iTunes, and iWhatever, but all other Europeans, unlike Irishmen, did not agree with Apple to avoid tax payment based on services/product sold on common European market. Same problem is facing Australia, also with Apple and few others that have legal subsidies operating from Singaphur, but selling to Australian market. Singaphur, even with lower or no tax charges than Australia, at least has the equal tax benefits for all companies settled there, not only Apple.
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The EU didn't change rules retroactively, the rules Ireland offered to Apple were not legal according to EU rules. Therefore, Apple must pay some extra taxes to Ireland, and Ireland probably will get fined at some point by the EU.
Just a note: the EU didn't exist when Apple opened it's first office in Cork in 1980. The EEC was in existence then, the EU started in 1993.
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Read Apple's letter to Europe on Irish tax decision | The Verge[^] Personally I hope foreign companies and foreign governments proceed with a scorched earth reaction. Pull all European investment, shutter all European facilities, fire all European employees (based in Europe and elsewhere) , shut-down services to all European citizens / businesses and fine / tax the f*** out of all European companies operating outside of Europe. Let Europeans live with the monster they've created.
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
It already costs too much! :wtf:
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Of course they will. Their profits will be less, or like you noted, their product prices will go up. Tax is tax regardless of which country it's going to. The crux of it for me is that they essentially paid off the Irish government for a substantially reduced tax while they, the Irish, had none of the liabilities of having the physical company there. Don't get me wrong, I get what you're saying. What they did was 'legal'. What they really need to do is call this a fine for unethical business practice instead of back taxes. I do like the fact that the EU stands up to these big companies vs the US government where they've become more like an oligarchy.
You just responded to a whole bunch of points, none of which were the point I was actually making. In the US, corporations get tax credits based off of how much taxes they pay in other countries. Since they weren't paying very much in taxes in Europe, they weren't receiving much of a tax credit in the US. If this decision by the EU commission stands, their taxes in Europe will go up by a substantial amount, leading to a substantial tax credit here in the US, thus decreasing the amount of taxes they pay here, regardless of anything else that changes (profits/company structure/etc.). With this decision, the EU is essentially taking money directly from the US Federal government and giving it to Ireland (who, in my opinion, is equally complicit in this business agreement and deserve nothing more than has already been paid to them).
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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Just because it's "legal" doesn't mean it's right: that is tax evasion / avoidance (I'm never clear on the difference) on a massive scale using practices they probably repeat in all territories. Which means that they don't contribute to the societies they depend on to provide the customers: they don't pay for the police, fire, or other emergency services; the legal system that protects their copyrights, that prosecutes those who steal from them; the penal system that jails people that contravene. They don't pay for the armed forces, and financial systems that provide them with a more-or-less stable society to buy their products. Instead, their share of that burden falls on you, me, and everybody else who does pay taxes whether they use Apple products or not. Is that right and fair? Legality be damned - any person or company rich enough seems to make it's own law, and protest like heck when it seems that protection should be removed.
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As long as companies can pit government against government, they win. This works on all levels; local, provincial, and national. Alas, it makes you wonder if somebody is using international corporate taxes as yet another ploy for a single-currency world. Sigh.
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); } Meus ratio ex fortis machina. Simplicitatis de formae ac munus. -Foothill, 2016
