Would you hire or not and why? :)
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You're a hiring manager. You are responsible for picking a candidate who will be in a long-term position with the company and who you know you will be able to mold/teach. Both candidates are friendly and willing to learn. But there's a slight challenge. Candidate A is a fresh engineering graduate from a World Famous University and has no experience in Development. Candidate B is having good experience of Development and knows all of the sorts, trees, and hashes and answer all of your questions quickly under pressure. He also writes extremely clean and readable code, follows SOLID principles, writes great unit tests and has good knowledge of Dev-Ops things. However, Candidate B has no engineering degree. Both candidates are friendly and both seem like they have potential to learn. Your firm uses modern development approach in either C# or Java and produces applications that must meet a efficiency standard. Who do you hire and why? :) :)
___ ___ ___
|__ |_| |\ | | |_| \ /
__| | | | \| |__| | | /The one with the big t*ts. Because ... :D
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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You're a hiring manager. You are responsible for picking a candidate who will be in a long-term position with the company and who you know you will be able to mold/teach. Both candidates are friendly and willing to learn. But there's a slight challenge. Candidate A is a fresh engineering graduate from a World Famous University and has no experience in Development. Candidate B is having good experience of Development and knows all of the sorts, trees, and hashes and answer all of your questions quickly under pressure. He also writes extremely clean and readable code, follows SOLID principles, writes great unit tests and has good knowledge of Dev-Ops things. However, Candidate B has no engineering degree. Both candidates are friendly and both seem like they have potential to learn. Your firm uses modern development approach in either C# or Java and produces applications that must meet a efficiency standard. Who do you hire and why? :) :)
___ ___ ___
|__ |_| |\ | | |_| \ /
__| | | | \| |__| | | /B. I'd value dedication to craft over degree any day. While a degree can be valuable all it really means is you've learned the very basics of what it takes to be a developer. Most of those 4 years were spent learning English, Biology, and other random "well-rounded" classes while very few spent on actual development or mathematics courses (discrete <3). There are many things you most likely won't learn in college too: clean code, design patterns, architectural patterns, SDLC, SOLID, test-driven development (or testing at all), and the most important in my opinion - they've never proven themselves able to learn a new language or framework independent of having it force-fed to them over months/years. I see rant posts on other sites all the time from managers frustrated they've hired someone from a reputable college that can hardly code at all let alone code well. Full disclosure - I don't have a completed degree therefore may be slightly bias :cool:
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You're a hiring manager. You are responsible for picking a candidate who will be in a long-term position with the company and who you know you will be able to mold/teach. Both candidates are friendly and willing to learn. But there's a slight challenge. Candidate A is a fresh engineering graduate from a World Famous University and has no experience in Development. Candidate B is having good experience of Development and knows all of the sorts, trees, and hashes and answer all of your questions quickly under pressure. He also writes extremely clean and readable code, follows SOLID principles, writes great unit tests and has good knowledge of Dev-Ops things. However, Candidate B has no engineering degree. Both candidates are friendly and both seem like they have potential to learn. Your firm uses modern development approach in either C# or Java and produces applications that must meet a efficiency standard. Who do you hire and why? :) :)
___ ___ ___
|__ |_| |\ | | |_| \ /
__| | | | \| |__| | | /The graduate, so we can all laugh and point, then fire him after his trial period and go for candidate B instead :D
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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You're a hiring manager. You are responsible for picking a candidate who will be in a long-term position with the company and who you know you will be able to mold/teach. Both candidates are friendly and willing to learn. But there's a slight challenge. Candidate A is a fresh engineering graduate from a World Famous University and has no experience in Development. Candidate B is having good experience of Development and knows all of the sorts, trees, and hashes and answer all of your questions quickly under pressure. He also writes extremely clean and readable code, follows SOLID principles, writes great unit tests and has good knowledge of Dev-Ops things. However, Candidate B has no engineering degree. Both candidates are friendly and both seem like they have potential to learn. Your firm uses modern development approach in either C# or Java and produces applications that must meet a efficiency standard. Who do you hire and why? :) :)
___ ___ ___
|__ |_| |\ | | |_| \ /
__| | | | \| |__| | | /B. I'd value dedication to craft over degree any day. While a degree can be valuable all it really means is you've learned the very basics of what it takes to be a developer. Most of those 4 years were spent learning English, Biology, and other random "well-rounded" classes while very few spent on actual development or mathematics courses (discrete <3). There are many things you most likely won't learn in college too: clean code, design patterns, architectural patterns, SDLC, SOLID, test-driven development (or testing at all), and the most important in my opinion - they've never proven themselves able to learn a new language or framework independent of having it force-fed to them over months or years.
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You're a hiring manager. You are responsible for picking a candidate who will be in a long-term position with the company and who you know you will be able to mold/teach. Both candidates are friendly and willing to learn. But there's a slight challenge. Candidate A is a fresh engineering graduate from a World Famous University and has no experience in Development. Candidate B is having good experience of Development and knows all of the sorts, trees, and hashes and answer all of your questions quickly under pressure. He also writes extremely clean and readable code, follows SOLID principles, writes great unit tests and has good knowledge of Dev-Ops things. However, Candidate B has no engineering degree. Both candidates are friendly and both seem like they have potential to learn. Your firm uses modern development approach in either C# or Java and produces applications that must meet a efficiency standard. Who do you hire and why? :) :)
___ ___ ___
|__ |_| |\ | | |_| \ /
__| | | | \| |__| | | / -
You're a hiring manager. You are responsible for picking a candidate who will be in a long-term position with the company and who you know you will be able to mold/teach. Both candidates are friendly and willing to learn. But there's a slight challenge. Candidate A is a fresh engineering graduate from a World Famous University and has no experience in Development. Candidate B is having good experience of Development and knows all of the sorts, trees, and hashes and answer all of your questions quickly under pressure. He also writes extremely clean and readable code, follows SOLID principles, writes great unit tests and has good knowledge of Dev-Ops things. However, Candidate B has no engineering degree. Both candidates are friendly and both seem like they have potential to learn. Your firm uses modern development approach in either C# or Java and produces applications that must meet a efficiency standard. Who do you hire and why? :) :)
___ ___ ___
|__ |_| |\ | | |_| \ /
__| | | | \| |__| | | /A as a manager, B as a developer. Those who can do, do. Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't neither do nor teach manage.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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A as a manager, B as a developer. Those who can do, do. Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't neither do nor teach manage.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
den2k88 wrote:
Those who can do, do. Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't neither do nor teach manage.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: But sad is... I have seen it many times :sigh: :sigh: :sigh:
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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den2k88 wrote:
Those who can do, do. Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't neither do nor teach manage.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: But sad is... I have seen it many times :sigh: :sigh: :sigh:
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
Seriously though, a man who can write good code should write code and not waste time in meetings and bureaucracy! You wouldn't want a freshly graduate surgeon while the hospital manager is one of the finest surgeons around, wouldn't you?
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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The one with the big t*ts. Because ... :D
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
There is a thing called man boobs. You care to rephrase that answer?
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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There is a thing called man boobs. You care to rephrase that answer?
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
I'm being consistent[^]
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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A as a manager, B as a developer. Those who can do, do. Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't neither do nor teach manage.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
You can't manage what you don't understand (even though a lot of people try - and fail) :doh:
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time -
You're a hiring manager. You are responsible for picking a candidate who will be in a long-term position with the company and who you know you will be able to mold/teach. Both candidates are friendly and willing to learn. But there's a slight challenge. Candidate A is a fresh engineering graduate from a World Famous University and has no experience in Development. Candidate B is having good experience of Development and knows all of the sorts, trees, and hashes and answer all of your questions quickly under pressure. He also writes extremely clean and readable code, follows SOLID principles, writes great unit tests and has good knowledge of Dev-Ops things. However, Candidate B has no engineering degree. Both candidates are friendly and both seem like they have potential to learn. Your firm uses modern development approach in either C# or Java and produces applications that must meet a efficiency standard. Who do you hire and why? :) :)
___ ___ ___
|__ |_| |\ | | |_| \ /
__| | | | \| |__| | | /B any day! A degree is not that important. Experience is more valuable, and if he writes good clean code, it doesn't matter how he got to do so. Anyway - self taught programmers often know more and have more experience than those who have taken the degree - because they are more interested and seek out the knowledge themselves, and often program a lot in their spare time. People who have taken a degree in computing may have done so because they have heard that there is good money to be made and lots of jobs, not necessairly because they are that interested in it. My 5 cents (being a B type myself!)
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time -
You can't manage what you don't understand (even though a lot of people try - and fail) :doh:
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the timeYou can manage what you do not understand. Just do it poorly and balme the subordinates! There is an old joke / saying which I will try to get from memory that goes "Three NCOs are undergoing a test to become full Officers. The Lieutenant asks all three of them the same question <You are on a harsh battlefiled under heavy enemy fire and your superior officer commands you to have a mile long trench ready in an hour. What would you do?> The first answers <I tell my commanding officer that this is impossible>. The second is a good soldier and answers <I immediately take the shovel and satrt digging sir!> The third one answers <I call my Sergeant and order him to have that f*ing trench ready for yesterday morning or I will get them a*es for breakfast!> The third one is the one who passes." AFAIK it was a real test used un the British Navy to see if a candidate had the sense to understand that he was to be a commander and that he had to rely no longer on his own person but on the men he was responsible of, and that they were to be his resources from that moment on.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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B any day! A degree is not that important. Experience is more valuable, and if he writes good clean code, it doesn't matter how he got to do so. Anyway - self taught programmers often know more and have more experience than those who have taken the degree - because they are more interested and seek out the knowledge themselves, and often program a lot in their spare time. People who have taken a degree in computing may have done so because they have heard that there is good money to be made and lots of jobs, not necessairly because they are that interested in it. My 5 cents (being a B type myself!)
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the timeJohnny J. wrote:
Anyway - self taught programmers often know more and have more experience than those who have taken the degree - because they are more interested and seek out the knowledge themselves, and often program a lot in their spare time.
In my experience it's better to stay a mile away from these people unless your job is very repetitive. Put them 3 inches out of their waters and they fail miserably, while a good scientific trained mind applies the same rigor and forma mentis to every problem, even the ones he hasn't faced before. And in fact my self-taught colleagues and ex-colleagues are the ones who write the most awful code in existance... an example? In a structure there are these... things? (they had otehr names luckily, not x y w z).
...
x___0 As Long
y____0 As Long
w_0 As Long
z__0 As Long
x___1 As Long
y____1 As Long
w_1 As Long
z__1 As Long
x___2 As Long
y____2 As Long
w_2 As Long
z__2 As Long
x___3 As Long
y____3 As Long
w_3 As Long
z__3 As Long
x___4 As Long
y____4 As Long
w_4 As Long
z__4 As Long
x___5 As Long
y____5 As Long
w_5 As Long
z__5 As Long
x___6 As Long
y____6 As Long
w_6 As Long
z__6 As Long
x___7 As Long
y____7 As Long
w_7 As Long
z__7 As Long
...Beacuse array are so old-style... and they are the ones who cram the application logic AND hardware management directly in the UI. And that is the sme thing I saw in my previous experiences with self-taught programmers. Of course there are thousands of graduated programmers who do much worse than this example and just as many perfectly good self-taught who can teach me on even and odd days. But the trend and my experience had taught me to be wary.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCav
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You're a hiring manager. You are responsible for picking a candidate who will be in a long-term position with the company and who you know you will be able to mold/teach. Both candidates are friendly and willing to learn. But there's a slight challenge. Candidate A is a fresh engineering graduate from a World Famous University and has no experience in Development. Candidate B is having good experience of Development and knows all of the sorts, trees, and hashes and answer all of your questions quickly under pressure. He also writes extremely clean and readable code, follows SOLID principles, writes great unit tests and has good knowledge of Dev-Ops things. However, Candidate B has no engineering degree. Both candidates are friendly and both seem like they have potential to learn. Your firm uses modern development approach in either C# or Java and produces applications that must meet a efficiency standard. Who do you hire and why? :) :)
___ ___ ___
|__ |_| |\ | | |_| \ /
__| | | | \| |__| | | /1. I'm failing to see where the requirement of degree X or Y comes from? If someone knows his stuff, he knows his stuff, no degree will change that. I've seen .Net certified consultants who couldn't write a decent line of code. 2. Talking the talk is one thing, but you do need to let them perform a practical test. Let them right a small program with some basic skills like reading in a database and creating a small ASCII text report with it or something. Drill down on the how and why they did things. 3. But the most important question you need to ask yourself is: Will this person fit the team ? We declined perfectly good technical candidates, even the best, just because of their attitude. good luck. :)
V.
(MQOTD rules and previous solutions)
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Johnny J. wrote:
Anyway - self taught programmers often know more and have more experience than those who have taken the degree - because they are more interested and seek out the knowledge themselves, and often program a lot in their spare time.
In my experience it's better to stay a mile away from these people unless your job is very repetitive. Put them 3 inches out of their waters and they fail miserably, while a good scientific trained mind applies the same rigor and forma mentis to every problem, even the ones he hasn't faced before. And in fact my self-taught colleagues and ex-colleagues are the ones who write the most awful code in existance... an example? In a structure there are these... things? (they had otehr names luckily, not x y w z).
...
x___0 As Long
y____0 As Long
w_0 As Long
z__0 As Long
x___1 As Long
y____1 As Long
w_1 As Long
z__1 As Long
x___2 As Long
y____2 As Long
w_2 As Long
z__2 As Long
x___3 As Long
y____3 As Long
w_3 As Long
z__3 As Long
x___4 As Long
y____4 As Long
w_4 As Long
z__4 As Long
x___5 As Long
y____5 As Long
w_5 As Long
z__5 As Long
x___6 As Long
y____6 As Long
w_6 As Long
z__6 As Long
x___7 As Long
y____7 As Long
w_7 As Long
z__7 As Long
...Beacuse array are so old-style... and they are the ones who cram the application logic AND hardware management directly in the UI. And that is the sme thing I saw in my previous experiences with self-taught programmers. Of course there are thousands of graduated programmers who do much worse than this example and just as many perfectly good self-taught who can teach me on even and odd days. But the trend and my experience had taught me to be wary.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCav
We have different experiences then. Personally, I ONLY have bad experiences with graduates right out of school. They know absolultely NOTHING. Whatever they're teaching in school, it's not programming. The last one I met got a job programming Dynamics AX, without knowing anything about it and only having done a small console application in C# over a 2 week period in school. Needless to say, he failed miserably, and as far as I know, he quickly stopped working with programming.
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
-----
The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-----
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time -
A as a manager, B as a developer. Those who can do, do. Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't neither do nor teach manage.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
den2k88 wrote:
A as a manager,
Really? What for? To keep the meeting room occupied? Do you have a quota of pointy hairdos to meet? Wouldn't a radio be cheaper to hear a constant stream of buzzwords?
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns. -
You're a hiring manager. You are responsible for picking a candidate who will be in a long-term position with the company and who you know you will be able to mold/teach. Both candidates are friendly and willing to learn. But there's a slight challenge. Candidate A is a fresh engineering graduate from a World Famous University and has no experience in Development. Candidate B is having good experience of Development and knows all of the sorts, trees, and hashes and answer all of your questions quickly under pressure. He also writes extremely clean and readable code, follows SOLID principles, writes great unit tests and has good knowledge of Dev-Ops things. However, Candidate B has no engineering degree. Both candidates are friendly and both seem like they have potential to learn. Your firm uses modern development approach in either C# or Java and produces applications that must meet a efficiency standard. Who do you hire and why? :) :)
___ ___ ___
|__ |_| |\ | | |_| \ /
__| | | | \| |__| | | /A - a degree gives you a solid foundation to build on. B might be building his code on sand and it might look good now but collapse tomorrow.
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We have different experiences then. Personally, I ONLY have bad experiences with graduates right out of school. They know absolultely NOTHING. Whatever they're teaching in school, it's not programming. The last one I met got a job programming Dynamics AX, without knowing anything about it and only having done a small console application in C# over a 2 week period in school. Needless to say, he failed miserably, and as far as I know, he quickly stopped working with programming.
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
-----
The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-----
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the timeJohnny J. wrote:
right out of school.
I wasn't considering them of course, I was considering 3-5 years experience from graduates of course. A green programmer is a green programmer whatever title or certification he does possess.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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den2k88 wrote:
A as a manager,
Really? What for? To keep the meeting room occupied? Do you have a quota of pointy hairdos to meet? Wouldn't a radio be cheaper to hear a constant stream of buzzwords?
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.For the reasons I explained: B can code, it's better if he codes. Managers are needed to save developer's time by doing the paperwork. A can be trained to be a good manager - actually every person capable of reading and writing can - while training another B starting from A requires much more time and can do much more harm.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
