Would you hire or not and why? :)
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A as a manager, B as a developer. Those who can do, do. Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't neither do nor teach manage.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
You can't manage what you don't understand (even though a lot of people try - and fail) :doh:
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time -
You're a hiring manager. You are responsible for picking a candidate who will be in a long-term position with the company and who you know you will be able to mold/teach. Both candidates are friendly and willing to learn. But there's a slight challenge. Candidate A is a fresh engineering graduate from a World Famous University and has no experience in Development. Candidate B is having good experience of Development and knows all of the sorts, trees, and hashes and answer all of your questions quickly under pressure. He also writes extremely clean and readable code, follows SOLID principles, writes great unit tests and has good knowledge of Dev-Ops things. However, Candidate B has no engineering degree. Both candidates are friendly and both seem like they have potential to learn. Your firm uses modern development approach in either C# or Java and produces applications that must meet a efficiency standard. Who do you hire and why? :) :)
___ ___ ___
|__ |_| |\ | | |_| \ /
__| | | | \| |__| | | /B any day! A degree is not that important. Experience is more valuable, and if he writes good clean code, it doesn't matter how he got to do so. Anyway - self taught programmers often know more and have more experience than those who have taken the degree - because they are more interested and seek out the knowledge themselves, and often program a lot in their spare time. People who have taken a degree in computing may have done so because they have heard that there is good money to be made and lots of jobs, not necessairly because they are that interested in it. My 5 cents (being a B type myself!)
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-----
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time -
You can't manage what you don't understand (even though a lot of people try - and fail) :doh:
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
-----
The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-----
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the timeYou can manage what you do not understand. Just do it poorly and balme the subordinates! There is an old joke / saying which I will try to get from memory that goes "Three NCOs are undergoing a test to become full Officers. The Lieutenant asks all three of them the same question <You are on a harsh battlefiled under heavy enemy fire and your superior officer commands you to have a mile long trench ready in an hour. What would you do?> The first answers <I tell my commanding officer that this is impossible>. The second is a good soldier and answers <I immediately take the shovel and satrt digging sir!> The third one answers <I call my Sergeant and order him to have that f*ing trench ready for yesterday morning or I will get them a*es for breakfast!> The third one is the one who passes." AFAIK it was a real test used un the British Navy to see if a candidate had the sense to understand that he was to be a commander and that he had to rely no longer on his own person but on the men he was responsible of, and that they were to be his resources from that moment on.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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B any day! A degree is not that important. Experience is more valuable, and if he writes good clean code, it doesn't matter how he got to do so. Anyway - self taught programmers often know more and have more experience than those who have taken the degree - because they are more interested and seek out the knowledge themselves, and often program a lot in their spare time. People who have taken a degree in computing may have done so because they have heard that there is good money to be made and lots of jobs, not necessairly because they are that interested in it. My 5 cents (being a B type myself!)
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-----
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the timeJohnny J. wrote:
Anyway - self taught programmers often know more and have more experience than those who have taken the degree - because they are more interested and seek out the knowledge themselves, and often program a lot in their spare time.
In my experience it's better to stay a mile away from these people unless your job is very repetitive. Put them 3 inches out of their waters and they fail miserably, while a good scientific trained mind applies the same rigor and forma mentis to every problem, even the ones he hasn't faced before. And in fact my self-taught colleagues and ex-colleagues are the ones who write the most awful code in existance... an example? In a structure there are these... things? (they had otehr names luckily, not x y w z).
...
x___0 As Long
y____0 As Long
w_0 As Long
z__0 As Long
x___1 As Long
y____1 As Long
w_1 As Long
z__1 As Long
x___2 As Long
y____2 As Long
w_2 As Long
z__2 As Long
x___3 As Long
y____3 As Long
w_3 As Long
z__3 As Long
x___4 As Long
y____4 As Long
w_4 As Long
z__4 As Long
x___5 As Long
y____5 As Long
w_5 As Long
z__5 As Long
x___6 As Long
y____6 As Long
w_6 As Long
z__6 As Long
x___7 As Long
y____7 As Long
w_7 As Long
z__7 As Long
...Beacuse array are so old-style... and they are the ones who cram the application logic AND hardware management directly in the UI. And that is the sme thing I saw in my previous experiences with self-taught programmers. Of course there are thousands of graduated programmers who do much worse than this example and just as many perfectly good self-taught who can teach me on even and odd days. But the trend and my experience had taught me to be wary.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCav
-
You're a hiring manager. You are responsible for picking a candidate who will be in a long-term position with the company and who you know you will be able to mold/teach. Both candidates are friendly and willing to learn. But there's a slight challenge. Candidate A is a fresh engineering graduate from a World Famous University and has no experience in Development. Candidate B is having good experience of Development and knows all of the sorts, trees, and hashes and answer all of your questions quickly under pressure. He also writes extremely clean and readable code, follows SOLID principles, writes great unit tests and has good knowledge of Dev-Ops things. However, Candidate B has no engineering degree. Both candidates are friendly and both seem like they have potential to learn. Your firm uses modern development approach in either C# or Java and produces applications that must meet a efficiency standard. Who do you hire and why? :) :)
___ ___ ___
|__ |_| |\ | | |_| \ /
__| | | | \| |__| | | /1. I'm failing to see where the requirement of degree X or Y comes from? If someone knows his stuff, he knows his stuff, no degree will change that. I've seen .Net certified consultants who couldn't write a decent line of code. 2. Talking the talk is one thing, but you do need to let them perform a practical test. Let them right a small program with some basic skills like reading in a database and creating a small ASCII text report with it or something. Drill down on the how and why they did things. 3. But the most important question you need to ask yourself is: Will this person fit the team ? We declined perfectly good technical candidates, even the best, just because of their attitude. good luck. :)
V.
(MQOTD rules and previous solutions)
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Johnny J. wrote:
Anyway - self taught programmers often know more and have more experience than those who have taken the degree - because they are more interested and seek out the knowledge themselves, and often program a lot in their spare time.
In my experience it's better to stay a mile away from these people unless your job is very repetitive. Put them 3 inches out of their waters and they fail miserably, while a good scientific trained mind applies the same rigor and forma mentis to every problem, even the ones he hasn't faced before. And in fact my self-taught colleagues and ex-colleagues are the ones who write the most awful code in existance... an example? In a structure there are these... things? (they had otehr names luckily, not x y w z).
...
x___0 As Long
y____0 As Long
w_0 As Long
z__0 As Long
x___1 As Long
y____1 As Long
w_1 As Long
z__1 As Long
x___2 As Long
y____2 As Long
w_2 As Long
z__2 As Long
x___3 As Long
y____3 As Long
w_3 As Long
z__3 As Long
x___4 As Long
y____4 As Long
w_4 As Long
z__4 As Long
x___5 As Long
y____5 As Long
w_5 As Long
z__5 As Long
x___6 As Long
y____6 As Long
w_6 As Long
z__6 As Long
x___7 As Long
y____7 As Long
w_7 As Long
z__7 As Long
...Beacuse array are so old-style... and they are the ones who cram the application logic AND hardware management directly in the UI. And that is the sme thing I saw in my previous experiences with self-taught programmers. Of course there are thousands of graduated programmers who do much worse than this example and just as many perfectly good self-taught who can teach me on even and odd days. But the trend and my experience had taught me to be wary.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCav
We have different experiences then. Personally, I ONLY have bad experiences with graduates right out of school. They know absolultely NOTHING. Whatever they're teaching in school, it's not programming. The last one I met got a job programming Dynamics AX, without knowing anything about it and only having done a small console application in C# over a 2 week period in school. Needless to say, he failed miserably, and as far as I know, he quickly stopped working with programming.
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
-----
The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-----
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time -
A as a manager, B as a developer. Those who can do, do. Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't neither do nor teach manage.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
den2k88 wrote:
A as a manager,
Really? What for? To keep the meeting room occupied? Do you have a quota of pointy hairdos to meet? Wouldn't a radio be cheaper to hear a constant stream of buzzwords?
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns. -
You're a hiring manager. You are responsible for picking a candidate who will be in a long-term position with the company and who you know you will be able to mold/teach. Both candidates are friendly and willing to learn. But there's a slight challenge. Candidate A is a fresh engineering graduate from a World Famous University and has no experience in Development. Candidate B is having good experience of Development and knows all of the sorts, trees, and hashes and answer all of your questions quickly under pressure. He also writes extremely clean and readable code, follows SOLID principles, writes great unit tests and has good knowledge of Dev-Ops things. However, Candidate B has no engineering degree. Both candidates are friendly and both seem like they have potential to learn. Your firm uses modern development approach in either C# or Java and produces applications that must meet a efficiency standard. Who do you hire and why? :) :)
___ ___ ___
|__ |_| |\ | | |_| \ /
__| | | | \| |__| | | /A - a degree gives you a solid foundation to build on. B might be building his code on sand and it might look good now but collapse tomorrow.
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We have different experiences then. Personally, I ONLY have bad experiences with graduates right out of school. They know absolultely NOTHING. Whatever they're teaching in school, it's not programming. The last one I met got a job programming Dynamics AX, without knowing anything about it and only having done a small console application in C# over a 2 week period in school. Needless to say, he failed miserably, and as far as I know, he quickly stopped working with programming.
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
-----
The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-----
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the timeJohnny J. wrote:
right out of school.
I wasn't considering them of course, I was considering 3-5 years experience from graduates of course. A green programmer is a green programmer whatever title or certification he does possess.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
-
den2k88 wrote:
A as a manager,
Really? What for? To keep the meeting room occupied? Do you have a quota of pointy hairdos to meet? Wouldn't a radio be cheaper to hear a constant stream of buzzwords?
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.For the reasons I explained: B can code, it's better if he codes. Managers are needed to save developer's time by doing the paperwork. A can be trained to be a good manager - actually every person capable of reading and writing can - while training another B starting from A requires much more time and can do much more harm.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
-
You're a hiring manager. You are responsible for picking a candidate who will be in a long-term position with the company and who you know you will be able to mold/teach. Both candidates are friendly and willing to learn. But there's a slight challenge. Candidate A is a fresh engineering graduate from a World Famous University and has no experience in Development. Candidate B is having good experience of Development and knows all of the sorts, trees, and hashes and answer all of your questions quickly under pressure. He also writes extremely clean and readable code, follows SOLID principles, writes great unit tests and has good knowledge of Dev-Ops things. However, Candidate B has no engineering degree. Both candidates are friendly and both seem like they have potential to learn. Your firm uses modern development approach in either C# or Java and produces applications that must meet a efficiency standard. Who do you hire and why? :) :)
___ ___ ___
|__ |_| |\ | | |_| \ /
__| | | | \| |__| | | /From your description none of them have any managerial experience. I'd still go with B because he was decently exposed to real work environments and real problems. In fact -- I would not hire a fresh graduate for a managerial position. People need to raise to the top taking 1-2 steps at the time, not 10-20.
-
You're a hiring manager. You are responsible for picking a candidate who will be in a long-term position with the company and who you know you will be able to mold/teach. Both candidates are friendly and willing to learn. But there's a slight challenge. Candidate A is a fresh engineering graduate from a World Famous University and has no experience in Development. Candidate B is having good experience of Development and knows all of the sorts, trees, and hashes and answer all of your questions quickly under pressure. He also writes extremely clean and readable code, follows SOLID principles, writes great unit tests and has good knowledge of Dev-Ops things. However, Candidate B has no engineering degree. Both candidates are friendly and both seem like they have potential to learn. Your firm uses modern development approach in either C# or Java and produces applications that must meet a efficiency standard. Who do you hire and why? :) :)
___ ___ ___
|__ |_| |\ | | |_| \ /
__| | | | \| |__| | | /No contest - B :)
"This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedivere. Explain to me again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes"
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For the reasons I explained: B can code, it's better if he codes. Managers are needed to save developer's time by doing the paperwork. A can be trained to be a good manager - actually every person capable of reading and writing can - while training another B starting from A requires much more time and can do much more harm.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
As much harm as (in the worst case) an unproductive self-important drone that interferes with everything and knows everything better?
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns. -
As much harm as (in the worst case) an unproductive self-important drone that interferes with everything and knows everything better?
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.Yes, because they often synergize. An idiot programmer comes up with a unusable component and the self-important drone forces it down the thorat of the others (been there...). At least if the programmers have sense they will be able to work around the drone. Get a single idiot programmer in there and it's over.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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Yes, because they often synergize. An idiot programmer comes up with a unusable component and the self-important drone forces it down the thorat of the others (been there...). At least if the programmers have sense they will be able to work around the drone. Get a single idiot programmer in there and it's over.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
den2k88 wrote:
At least if the programmers have sense they will be able to work around the drone. Get a single idiot programmer in there and it's over.
Ah, so it comes down to the old concept. Create a diversion that keeps the pointy-hairs busy and gives them something to 'manage' while you do what you intended to do in the first place.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns. -
den2k88 wrote:
At least if the programmers have sense they will be able to work around the drone. Get a single idiot programmer in there and it's over.
Ah, so it comes down to the old concept. Create a diversion that keeps the pointy-hairs busy and gives them something to 'manage' while you do what you intended to do in the first place.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.Precisely, and that is how most of the work is done in my company ;P
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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Precisely, and that is how most of the work is done in my company ;P
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
Life could be so easy if we ever decided to get a pointy hairdo.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns. -
Does my company have an HR department?
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
-
We have different experiences then. Personally, I ONLY have bad experiences with graduates right out of school. They know absolultely NOTHING. Whatever they're teaching in school, it's not programming. The last one I met got a job programming Dynamics AX, without knowing anything about it and only having done a small console application in C# over a 2 week period in school. Needless to say, he failed miserably, and as far as I know, he quickly stopped working with programming.
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
-----
The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-----
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the timeAs I finished the college I was trained by a guy, 8 months later I was asked by our end customer to correct his programs and get ride of the messed code / crap functions / clean the corpses and eat the spaghetti. So yes, most fresh graduated are inexperienced but, on the other side, most of them have learn clean methodologies and how it is supposed to be. They might not be familiar with the libraries, language or other stuff like that, but their level of abstraction and adaptation should not be underestimated so fast.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Seriously? You want HR to have the final word on engineers?? :wtf: I would prefer to have them as a first sieve...
... such stuff as dreams are made on
Certainly not, but they set the rules, even while not having a clue. And territorial pissing is a strong force.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello