Would you hire or not and why? :)
-
Johnny J. wrote:
Anyway - self taught programmers often know more and have more experience than those who have taken the degree - because they are more interested and seek out the knowledge themselves, and often program a lot in their spare time.
In my experience it's better to stay a mile away from these people unless your job is very repetitive. Put them 3 inches out of their waters and they fail miserably, while a good scientific trained mind applies the same rigor and forma mentis to every problem, even the ones he hasn't faced before. And in fact my self-taught colleagues and ex-colleagues are the ones who write the most awful code in existance... an example? In a structure there are these... things? (they had otehr names luckily, not x y w z).
...
x___0 As Long
y____0 As Long
w_0 As Long
z__0 As Long
x___1 As Long
y____1 As Long
w_1 As Long
z__1 As Long
x___2 As Long
y____2 As Long
w_2 As Long
z__2 As Long
x___3 As Long
y____3 As Long
w_3 As Long
z__3 As Long
x___4 As Long
y____4 As Long
w_4 As Long
z__4 As Long
x___5 As Long
y____5 As Long
w_5 As Long
z__5 As Long
x___6 As Long
y____6 As Long
w_6 As Long
z__6 As Long
x___7 As Long
y____7 As Long
w_7 As Long
z__7 As Long
...Beacuse array are so old-style... and they are the ones who cram the application logic AND hardware management directly in the UI. And that is the sme thing I saw in my previous experiences with self-taught programmers. Of course there are thousands of graduated programmers who do much worse than this example and just as many perfectly good self-taught who can teach me on even and odd days. But the trend and my experience had taught me to be wary.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCav
We have different experiences then. Personally, I ONLY have bad experiences with graduates right out of school. They know absolultely NOTHING. Whatever they're teaching in school, it's not programming. The last one I met got a job programming Dynamics AX, without knowing anything about it and only having done a small console application in C# over a 2 week period in school. Needless to say, he failed miserably, and as far as I know, he quickly stopped working with programming.
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
-----
The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-----
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time -
A as a manager, B as a developer. Those who can do, do. Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't neither do nor teach manage.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
den2k88 wrote:
A as a manager,
Really? What for? To keep the meeting room occupied? Do you have a quota of pointy hairdos to meet? Wouldn't a radio be cheaper to hear a constant stream of buzzwords?
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns. -
You're a hiring manager. You are responsible for picking a candidate who will be in a long-term position with the company and who you know you will be able to mold/teach. Both candidates are friendly and willing to learn. But there's a slight challenge. Candidate A is a fresh engineering graduate from a World Famous University and has no experience in Development. Candidate B is having good experience of Development and knows all of the sorts, trees, and hashes and answer all of your questions quickly under pressure. He also writes extremely clean and readable code, follows SOLID principles, writes great unit tests and has good knowledge of Dev-Ops things. However, Candidate B has no engineering degree. Both candidates are friendly and both seem like they have potential to learn. Your firm uses modern development approach in either C# or Java and produces applications that must meet a efficiency standard. Who do you hire and why? :) :)
___ ___ ___
|__ |_| |\ | | |_| \ /
__| | | | \| |__| | | /A - a degree gives you a solid foundation to build on. B might be building his code on sand and it might look good now but collapse tomorrow.
-
We have different experiences then. Personally, I ONLY have bad experiences with graduates right out of school. They know absolultely NOTHING. Whatever they're teaching in school, it's not programming. The last one I met got a job programming Dynamics AX, without knowing anything about it and only having done a small console application in C# over a 2 week period in school. Needless to say, he failed miserably, and as far as I know, he quickly stopped working with programming.
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
-----
The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-----
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the timeJohnny J. wrote:
right out of school.
I wasn't considering them of course, I was considering 3-5 years experience from graduates of course. A green programmer is a green programmer whatever title or certification he does possess.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
-
den2k88 wrote:
A as a manager,
Really? What for? To keep the meeting room occupied? Do you have a quota of pointy hairdos to meet? Wouldn't a radio be cheaper to hear a constant stream of buzzwords?
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.For the reasons I explained: B can code, it's better if he codes. Managers are needed to save developer's time by doing the paperwork. A can be trained to be a good manager - actually every person capable of reading and writing can - while training another B starting from A requires much more time and can do much more harm.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
-
You're a hiring manager. You are responsible for picking a candidate who will be in a long-term position with the company and who you know you will be able to mold/teach. Both candidates are friendly and willing to learn. But there's a slight challenge. Candidate A is a fresh engineering graduate from a World Famous University and has no experience in Development. Candidate B is having good experience of Development and knows all of the sorts, trees, and hashes and answer all of your questions quickly under pressure. He also writes extremely clean and readable code, follows SOLID principles, writes great unit tests and has good knowledge of Dev-Ops things. However, Candidate B has no engineering degree. Both candidates are friendly and both seem like they have potential to learn. Your firm uses modern development approach in either C# or Java and produces applications that must meet a efficiency standard. Who do you hire and why? :) :)
___ ___ ___
|__ |_| |\ | | |_| \ /
__| | | | \| |__| | | /From your description none of them have any managerial experience. I'd still go with B because he was decently exposed to real work environments and real problems. In fact -- I would not hire a fresh graduate for a managerial position. People need to raise to the top taking 1-2 steps at the time, not 10-20.
-
You're a hiring manager. You are responsible for picking a candidate who will be in a long-term position with the company and who you know you will be able to mold/teach. Both candidates are friendly and willing to learn. But there's a slight challenge. Candidate A is a fresh engineering graduate from a World Famous University and has no experience in Development. Candidate B is having good experience of Development and knows all of the sorts, trees, and hashes and answer all of your questions quickly under pressure. He also writes extremely clean and readable code, follows SOLID principles, writes great unit tests and has good knowledge of Dev-Ops things. However, Candidate B has no engineering degree. Both candidates are friendly and both seem like they have potential to learn. Your firm uses modern development approach in either C# or Java and produces applications that must meet a efficiency standard. Who do you hire and why? :) :)
___ ___ ___
|__ |_| |\ | | |_| \ /
__| | | | \| |__| | | /No contest - B :)
"This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedivere. Explain to me again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes"
-
For the reasons I explained: B can code, it's better if he codes. Managers are needed to save developer's time by doing the paperwork. A can be trained to be a good manager - actually every person capable of reading and writing can - while training another B starting from A requires much more time and can do much more harm.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
As much harm as (in the worst case) an unproductive self-important drone that interferes with everything and knows everything better?
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns. -
As much harm as (in the worst case) an unproductive self-important drone that interferes with everything and knows everything better?
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.Yes, because they often synergize. An idiot programmer comes up with a unusable component and the self-important drone forces it down the thorat of the others (been there...). At least if the programmers have sense they will be able to work around the drone. Get a single idiot programmer in there and it's over.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
-
Yes, because they often synergize. An idiot programmer comes up with a unusable component and the self-important drone forces it down the thorat of the others (been there...). At least if the programmers have sense they will be able to work around the drone. Get a single idiot programmer in there and it's over.
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
den2k88 wrote:
At least if the programmers have sense they will be able to work around the drone. Get a single idiot programmer in there and it's over.
Ah, so it comes down to the old concept. Create a diversion that keeps the pointy-hairs busy and gives them something to 'manage' while you do what you intended to do in the first place.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns. -
den2k88 wrote:
At least if the programmers have sense they will be able to work around the drone. Get a single idiot programmer in there and it's over.
Ah, so it comes down to the old concept. Create a diversion that keeps the pointy-hairs busy and gives them something to 'manage' while you do what you intended to do in the first place.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.Precisely, and that is how most of the work is done in my company ;P
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
-
Precisely, and that is how most of the work is done in my company ;P
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
Life could be so easy if we ever decided to get a pointy hairdo.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns. -
Does my company have an HR department?
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
-
We have different experiences then. Personally, I ONLY have bad experiences with graduates right out of school. They know absolultely NOTHING. Whatever they're teaching in school, it's not programming. The last one I met got a job programming Dynamics AX, without knowing anything about it and only having done a small console application in C# over a 2 week period in school. Needless to say, he failed miserably, and as far as I know, he quickly stopped working with programming.
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
-----
The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-----
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the timeAs I finished the college I was trained by a guy, 8 months later I was asked by our end customer to correct his programs and get ride of the messed code / crap functions / clean the corpses and eat the spaghetti. So yes, most fresh graduated are inexperienced but, on the other side, most of them have learn clean methodologies and how it is supposed to be. They might not be familiar with the libraries, language or other stuff like that, but their level of abstraction and adaptation should not be underestimated so fast.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
-
Seriously? You want HR to have the final word on engineers?? :wtf: I would prefer to have them as a first sieve...
... such stuff as dreams are made on
Certainly not, but they set the rules, even while not having a clue. And territorial pissing is a strong force.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
-
Seriously though, a man who can write good code should write code and not waste time in meetings and bureaucracy! You wouldn't want a freshly graduate surgeon while the hospital manager is one of the finest surgeons around, wouldn't you?
DURA LEX, SED LEX GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
Alternatively, for the developer who can't code, cuts corners and is an icon in his/her own mind, needs to go to as many meetings as possible. Preferably, re-assigned to test to suffer his misdeeds. but I would hire B in a heartbeat. If I were manager, I would probably get him cheap (HR - no degree we can pay him less). Then, I'd give him/her big raises every year.
Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
-
den2k88 wrote:
At least if the programmers have sense they will be able to work around the drone. Get a single idiot programmer in there and it's over.
Ah, so it comes down to the old concept. Create a diversion that keeps the pointy-hairs busy and gives them something to 'manage' while you do what you intended to do in the first place.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.Yeah, but when the managers start picking out technology to solve problems rather than ask the REALLY SMART PEOPLE THEY PAY, you know it's going to be an interesting 2017. ;P
Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
-
Certainly not, but they set the rules, even while not having a clue. And territorial pissing is a strong force.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
Unfortunately that is all too true to be funny :( But then I'm working in a manufactuary - not even our IT has any clue about the needs of a software developer :~ But, to answer the question: Personally, I'd go with B due to his experience, assuming he can show some work to proof these claims. The company however would likely prefer A, because he's got a degree and, being inexperienced, requires less pay and less holidays! :cool: That said, I might also go with A if he is willing and able to learn the things B already knows, and possibly a few things more. And, if he is willing to stay with the company for long enough, that all the time learning skills will eventually pay off! The problem of course is that you can never be sure of that... Sometimes I regret there is no such thing as an apprenticeship, nor a craftsmanship job title for software development. In theory, institutes like universities should teach students what they need for an actual job, but in practice they only really teach the most basic theoretical aspects. It takes years to actually learn the ropes after that, and a period of apprenticeship would be perfect for that purpose.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
-
You're a hiring manager. You are responsible for picking a candidate who will be in a long-term position with the company and who you know you will be able to mold/teach. Both candidates are friendly and willing to learn. But there's a slight challenge. Candidate A is a fresh engineering graduate from a World Famous University and has no experience in Development. Candidate B is having good experience of Development and knows all of the sorts, trees, and hashes and answer all of your questions quickly under pressure. He also writes extremely clean and readable code, follows SOLID principles, writes great unit tests and has good knowledge of Dev-Ops things. However, Candidate B has no engineering degree. Both candidates are friendly and both seem like they have potential to learn. Your firm uses modern development approach in either C# or Java and produces applications that must meet a efficiency standard. Who do you hire and why? :) :)
___ ___ ___
|__ |_| |\ | | |_| \ /
__| | | | \| |__| | | /When it comes to software, degrees don't mean much. Sure, they can gauge the candiate's ability to employ logical thinking, but that's pretty much it. If B is a good programer, hire B. Unless you want the candidate to optimize your algorithms (instead of actually writing usable software), academia doesn't mean much.
-
You're a hiring manager. You are responsible for picking a candidate who will be in a long-term position with the company and who you know you will be able to mold/teach. Both candidates are friendly and willing to learn. But there's a slight challenge. Candidate A is a fresh engineering graduate from a World Famous University and has no experience in Development. Candidate B is having good experience of Development and knows all of the sorts, trees, and hashes and answer all of your questions quickly under pressure. He also writes extremely clean and readable code, follows SOLID principles, writes great unit tests and has good knowledge of Dev-Ops things. However, Candidate B has no engineering degree. Both candidates are friendly and both seem like they have potential to learn. Your firm uses modern development approach in either C# or Java and produces applications that must meet a efficiency standard. Who do you hire and why? :) :)
___ ___ ___
|__ |_| |\ | | |_| \ /
__| | | | \| |__| | | /I guess, it depends on the budget, your (team) willingness to train/educate them and productivity start time expectation. Budget: If you get B, a already productive developer, he might be more expensive. If you get A, might be less investment, just your time investment to get him where you need. Time: Sometimes, there is no time for training and B could become even more productive to your expectation if he is guided with a senior developer. If I REALLY liked both of them, I would get both of them and pair them so they work together and train them and make them sweating blood while they are coding :) One of them might leave, but you would have a backup or you would split & promote both of them eventually. Good Luck :)