Test data?
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
The added bonus of reserving for Narnia or Mordor is that when an order actually accidentally makes it to production, it is (hopefully!) easily recognizeale as nonsense-data
Or a lawsuit for lots of spilled fuel! :laugh:
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
How 'real' is data?
I used to work for meat processing companies (yes, as a vegetarian, I know...) so they had a product, like tenderloin, that I would use for testing. So whenever the customer tried to explain what he wanted and we looked at some test data together he would laugh at me for putting a tenderloin in an order by some French customer that never orders tenderloin and then having it shipped by some Russian transporter (while the customer was in France). I really don't care what customer I ship too, or what transporter delivers the goods, none of that mattered for the test, but he just couldn't work like that. So yeah, he'd recreate nearly every test case we had so it fit a real world scenario, whether it was important for the test or not.
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
The best test data would probably include a large set of historical data. If your app doesn't cater for historical data, make it, and avoid all the guesswork on what to initially test with.
Follow my adventures with .NET Core at my new blog, Erisia Information Services.
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I did this early in my career. But remember not to take it too far. When I used an image of Darth Vader for the CEO and he saw it, we had to revert back to boring test data... The whole IT department got reprimanded once it was found.
Hogan
No humour. My boss would demand the full size original of the picture.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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Do you make test data fun? I'm currently working on a car reservation system. I've reserved cars to Mordor, Isengard, Hogwarts, Mos Eisley Cantina and Narnia. It's all fun and games until something accidentally lands on a production environment (like my Hot Spicy Steak, product code 666, delivered to Sanderville a few years ago). I know some people, especially customers, need test data to be "the real thing".
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
Generally I use a copy of the real data to make the testing more faithful. But if I don't have real data and create a mockup, it has to be obvious that the test data is fake so I don't forget to exchange it for real data later, so yes hilarious it is. Or bacon ipsum[^] if I'm lazy.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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Do you make test data fun? I'm currently working on a car reservation system. I've reserved cars to Mordor, Isengard, Hogwarts, Mos Eisley Cantina and Narnia. It's all fun and games until something accidentally lands on a production environment (like my Hot Spicy Steak, product code 666, delivered to Sanderville a few years ago). I know some people, especially customers, need test data to be "the real thing".
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
I think we can, and in fact should, however never take it too far indeed. Same for commenting code. If it does come in production, always remember, someone signed of for going live at some point. As long as that person is not you, don't sweat it ;P
V.
(MQOTD rules and previous solutions)
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Do you make test data fun? I'm currently working on a car reservation system. I've reserved cars to Mordor, Isengard, Hogwarts, Mos Eisley Cantina and Narnia. It's all fun and games until something accidentally lands on a production environment (like my Hot Spicy Steak, product code 666, delivered to Sanderville a few years ago). I know some people, especially customers, need test data to be "the real thing".
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
It can be extremely noisome, particularly if you have to arrange presentations or training for customer representatives. One "very funny gag" can cost hours of time, editing it out of screenshots, rebuilding databases, etc. I would strongly suggest that it be avoided, if you want your customers (and other people in your company) to view you as a professional.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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It can be extremely noisome, particularly if you have to arrange presentations or training for customer representatives. One "very funny gag" can cost hours of time, editing it out of screenshots, rebuilding databases, etc. I would strongly suggest that it be avoided, if you want your customers (and other people in your company) to view you as a professional.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Or just never use a development database for demos. A development database is going to have test data, probably even some invalid data to test certain scenarios.
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
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We recently demonstrated a system to the manager of the primary user having put in test data where we labelled a module "Finance Management". This was a label on a view and we said straight away we could change it to anything he liked. Said manager spent the next 30 minutes explaining why the label was invalid. He later wrote it up as a problem with the application. Morale of the story, make you test data nonsense, not something close to reality, even a manager can't focus on nonsense for too long.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Ouch, been there once :sigh: My guess is that those people are so extremely incompetent, and know it, that whenever they see something new, like "Finance Management", they freak out. Giving you a thirty minute speech on why the label is invalid is just to verify his own knowledge and position. Writing it down as a problem makes him feel powerful.
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
even a manager can't focus on nonsense for too long
Why do you think that? Managers made nonsense their job! :laugh:
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
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Or just never use a development database for demos. A development database is going to have test data, probably even some invalid data to test certain scenarios.
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
It's only after the contract is fulfilled that you have a production database, so the vast majority of demos are done with development databases, to describe to/train customers on "what you are going to get", and the docs guys can't wait until the product is installed and working customer-side to produce umpty-bagillion pages of documentation for it. One aspect of professionalism is that of not giving your colleagues a sh1tty time for no good reason. Another is that of not wasting money -- the guys who have to spend hours, days, and weeks making corrections to cover the little jokes have to be paid for their time. Another is that of not putting the company in the position of being embarrassed in front of customers. Could you remind me again what the plus side of the little jokes is? If you want to joke, come to the Lounge; don't go to potentially customer-facing material.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Do you make test data fun? I'm currently working on a car reservation system. I've reserved cars to Mordor, Isengard, Hogwarts, Mos Eisley Cantina and Narnia. It's all fun and games until something accidentally lands on a production environment (like my Hot Spicy Steak, product code 666, delivered to Sanderville a few years ago). I know some people, especially customers, need test data to be "the real thing".
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
A company I worked for a while ago (who shall remain nameless) used to demo their product using standard demo data that was created by the test team. Unfortunately, some of the developers would often amend the demo data when testing their new features. Some of them would create customers such as Mr Erectile Tissue or Mrs Fanny Flaps and the like. You can imagine how this went down at demos to prospective clients :laugh:
"There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult." - C.A.R. Hoare Home | LinkedIn | Google+ | Twitter
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It's only after the contract is fulfilled that you have a production database, so the vast majority of demos are done with development databases, to describe to/train customers on "what you are going to get", and the docs guys can't wait until the product is installed and working customer-side to produce umpty-bagillion pages of documentation for it. One aspect of professionalism is that of not giving your colleagues a sh1tty time for no good reason. Another is that of not wasting money -- the guys who have to spend hours, days, and weeks making corrections to cover the little jokes have to be paid for their time. Another is that of not putting the company in the position of being embarrassed in front of customers. Could you remind me again what the plus side of the little jokes is? If you want to joke, come to the Lounge; don't go to potentially customer-facing material.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
The downside to using actual data is that I have to know the domain I'm working in. I recently did some work on something for a toxicology department. I'm no toxicologist, I just used stuff like "WATER" and mixed it with "FORMALDEHYDE" as that is something I saw in the docs. After that it was just "TEST" and "SUB OF TEST". Not something you want customers to see, but what else am I going to put there? If someone wants a demo let them create a separate branch of the software that's sure to stay frozen with a database that has exactly the records you'd expect in the demo. How the hell are you going to demo a constantly changing product anyway?
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
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Do you make test data fun? I'm currently working on a car reservation system. I've reserved cars to Mordor, Isengard, Hogwarts, Mos Eisley Cantina and Narnia. It's all fun and games until something accidentally lands on a production environment (like my Hot Spicy Steak, product code 666, delivered to Sanderville a few years ago). I know some people, especially customers, need test data to be "the real thing".
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
Whenever possible I try to use a copy of real production data for tests. I learned that it is impossible to predict the absurdities you'll find in the _real_ data.
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Generally I use a copy of the real data to make the testing more faithful. But if I don't have real data and create a mockup, it has to be obvious that the test data is fake so I don't forget to exchange it for real data later, so yes hilarious it is. Or bacon ipsum[^] if I'm lazy.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
Jörgen Andersson wrote:
Or bacon ipsum[^] if I'm lazy.
I have these two links: blindtextgenerator.com[^] & 15 Funny Lorem Ipsum Generators to Shake Up Your Design Mockups[^] ;)
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A company I worked for a while ago (who shall remain nameless) used to demo their product using standard demo data that was created by the test team. Unfortunately, some of the developers would often amend the demo data when testing their new features. Some of them would create customers such as Mr Erectile Tissue or Mrs Fanny Flaps and the like. You can imagine how this went down at demos to prospective clients :laugh:
"There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult." - C.A.R. Hoare Home | LinkedIn | Google+ | Twitter
At least I make sure my test data isn't offensive :laugh:
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
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Do you make test data fun? I'm currently working on a car reservation system. I've reserved cars to Mordor, Isengard, Hogwarts, Mos Eisley Cantina and Narnia. It's all fun and games until something accidentally lands on a production environment (like my Hot Spicy Steak, product code 666, delivered to Sanderville a few years ago). I know some people, especially customers, need test data to be "the real thing".
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
I worked for a DMV and the database usage was tightly tracked, as even the Dev & Test databases were loaded with real customer data. Theft of that data was a real problem, so we were warned to not search for people, etc. So ... in the Dev and Test environments, when I needed fresh test data the safest thing to do was use my own ID (the system listed everything I had owned in that state). When I left that job I had more than 70 cars titled in my name, including Lamborghini, Ferrari, McLaren, Saleen, and Maybach. I had fun researching the cars ... the MSRP of my collection was about $65 million. ;P
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Ouch, been there once :sigh: My guess is that those people are so extremely incompetent, and know it, that whenever they see something new, like "Finance Management", they freak out. Giving you a thirty minute speech on why the label is invalid is just to verify his own knowledge and position. Writing it down as a problem makes him feel powerful.
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
even a manager can't focus on nonsense for too long
Why do you think that? Managers made nonsense their job! :laugh:
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
Managers have to be incompetent in order to be promoted out of harms way. I remember one, very senior manager asking me how to make a video player play. I suggested he should press the button with the word 'Play' on it. Blank response. He didn't even recognise sarcasm.
We're philosophical about power outages here. A.C. come, A.C. go.
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I worked for a DMV and the database usage was tightly tracked, as even the Dev & Test databases were loaded with real customer data. Theft of that data was a real problem, so we were warned to not search for people, etc. So ... in the Dev and Test environments, when I needed fresh test data the safest thing to do was use my own ID (the system listed everything I had owned in that state). When I left that job I had more than 70 cars titled in my name, including Lamborghini, Ferrari, McLaren, Saleen, and Maybach. I had fun researching the cars ... the MSRP of my collection was about $65 million. ;P
That sounds like fun. You might actually learn something :D
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
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The downside to using actual data is that I have to know the domain I'm working in. I recently did some work on something for a toxicology department. I'm no toxicologist, I just used stuff like "WATER" and mixed it with "FORMALDEHYDE" as that is something I saw in the docs. After that it was just "TEST" and "SUB OF TEST". Not something you want customers to see, but what else am I going to put there? If someone wants a demo let them create a separate branch of the software that's sure to stay frozen with a database that has exactly the records you'd expect in the demo. How the hell are you going to demo a constantly changing product anyway?
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
Sander Rossel wrote:
The downside to using actual data is that I have to know the domain I'm working in.
Just use values that don't sound like schoolboy jokes -- you don't have to be an expert to look at the customer's web-site and pick a few pointers from there, or to google "list of toxins". References to Star Wars, LotR, Harry Potter, etc, not only make the company look foolish, but also make it a lot harder to explain what the program is doing -- whereas if you use something similar to what the customer will be using, they'll "get it" instantly -- so they have to be replaced in a mad panic, and/or edited out of screenshots. That's not to mention that developers often use obscure fonts in UIs, so the correct font has to be found, then made to look exactly the same size as the other text in the screenshot (which could be at any zoom, not just font size), and then fuzzed/sharpened/blended in with its background the same as the other text (which was rendered by the GUI, not by the graphics tool that has to be used to fix it) -- it's a sh1tty, time-consuming task. Put it this way: it's a damned sight harder and more stressful than spending five minutes on google, so reserve that treatment for people you hate, not for guys you don't know (but who will learn to hate you)
Sander Rossel wrote:
How the hell are you going to demo a constantly changing product anyway?
There is no "how", there's just a "you have to". e.g: 0. If you use Agile, "you have to" show them what you've got at least once each sprint. 1. If you're working on a closed or high-secure system, they can demand to see what you're doing any time they want. 2. Even if !0 and !1, you can rest assured that you have colleagues who have to constantly "show and tell" with the customer.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Whenever possible I try to use a copy of real production data for tests. I learned that it is impossible to predict the absurdities you'll find in the _real_ data.
There is no better crazy than an end user. [Human Error](http://www.jklossner.com/computerworld/images/security26.gif)
Hogan
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Do you make test data fun? I'm currently working on a car reservation system. I've reserved cars to Mordor, Isengard, Hogwarts, Mos Eisley Cantina and Narnia. It's all fun and games until something accidentally lands on a production environment (like my Hot Spicy Steak, product code 666, delivered to Sanderville a few years ago). I know some people, especially customers, need test data to be "the real thing".
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
For test data, we use production data that we merge with test data. Primary key/Unique Ids in production start at DB default of 1, test DBs have been "juked" to insert new Ids starting at 1,000,000. This keeps refresh logic really simple. I had some alpha revision software that I did with a joint venture. If their interface ever returned an error code, I had programmed some hard stop/system level message boxes with messages like "Karem f%#$# up again: api [1-5]". Karem was the developer from the joint venture company. I return from the trip and barely have it integrated back into SCM (without changing the "fun" messages), when the president shows it to a customer after I told everyone, including him, that it was not ready for release yet. Thank goodness Karem was a good programmer! No messages appeared, but I am sure I would have been fired if they had. No more "fun" data after that close call...
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Jörgen Andersson wrote:
Or bacon ipsum[^] if I'm lazy.
I have these two links: blindtextgenerator.com[^] & 15 Funny Lorem Ipsum Generators to Shake Up Your Design Mockups[^] ;)
I've gotta use the pirate ipsum some day. :thumbsup:
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
