Shortage of Junior .net Developer !!!
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I remember an email this week from an agent looking for a senior .NET developer with 3+ years experience. To be fair I've also worked with senior developers with less ability than juniors/graduates. Titles mean far less than client requirements and day rate/salary. Also, years don't necessarily indicate experience.
The gist of my comment was that dot net officially was launched in 2001, but the ad (placed in 2005) was looking for 5 years experience. Totally unrealistic.
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The gist of my comment was that dot net officially was launched in 2001, but the ad (placed in 2005) was looking for 5 years experience. Totally unrealistic.
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The gist of my comment was that dot net officially was launched in 2001, but the ad (placed in 2005) was looking for 5 years experience. Totally unrealistic.
WinnipegCodeMonkey wrote:
The gist of my comment was that dot net officially was launched in 2001, but the ad (placed in 2005) was looking for 5 years experience. Totally unrealistic.
I was to say something similar but even worse, in 2005 as well, they were looking for someone with 10 years experience in .NET, I laughed so much, governments, they know nothing :-)
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For the past weekend, I had been asking around people in my circle, if they know any junior .net developer looking for job. Surprisingly, the answer is NO. That make me realize that I don't have any connection with junior developers community :sigh: . So where are all the junior .net developers/ fresh graduated student hanging out? Where to find them? :omg: :omg: :omg:
Bryian Tan
"Junior" means chump change; so no one is going to admit to being "junior". In fact, almost everyone I see on the internet has a "Masters degree"... I'm cleaning up one mess like that now. Enterprise SAAS.
"(I) am amazed to see myself here rather than there ... now rather than then". ― Blaise Pascal
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For the past weekend, I had been asking around people in my circle, if they know any junior .net developer looking for job. Surprisingly, the answer is NO. That make me realize that I don't have any connection with junior developers community :sigh: . So where are all the junior .net developers/ fresh graduated student hanging out? Where to find them? :omg: :omg: :omg:
Bryian Tan
This whole Jr/Sr level of developer has always bothered me a bit. It is supposed to imply experience AND ability. For example, I am a VERY GOOD problem solver. I solve the problem first, then write the code. I was trained as a "Programmer/Analyst" and I appreciate the Analyst part, which we have lost. So, while I am very Sr with problem solving, with .Net I am very Junior/Inexperienced. Although I have written about 500,000 lines of C code in my life, how do I apply for a Sr. Level C# position? In a one many shop, taking something over, I would be less effective than on a team with one really talented C# person to chop my learning curve. == So back to your question... The challenge is that we need to stay in touch with the schools, etc. if we want to find young talent. Coding schools, maybe, to find "fresh" talent (someone like me learning a new skill), and we have to separate skills in development from ability with a language. Just my 2 cents.
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For the past weekend, I had been asking around people in my circle, if they know any junior .net developer looking for job. Surprisingly, the answer is NO. That make me realize that I don't have any connection with junior developers community :sigh: . So where are all the junior .net developers/ fresh graduated student hanging out? Where to find them? :omg: :omg: :omg:
Bryian Tan
Your local College Computing department may have a [insert collective noun for students] of students that would love to have an apprenticeship. I have chosen to teach VB.Net at my College because VB is a professional tool [discuss] and, well, it's .Net and easily transferrable to C#.
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For the past weekend, I had been asking around people in my circle, if they know any junior .net developer looking for job. Surprisingly, the answer is NO. That make me realize that I don't have any connection with junior developers community :sigh: . So where are all the junior .net developers/ fresh graduated student hanging out? Where to find them? :omg: :omg: :omg:
Bryian Tan
Your local College Computing department may have a [insert collective noun for students] of students that would love to have an apprenticeship. I have chosen to teach VB.Net at my College because VB is a professional tool [discuss] and, well, it's .Net and easily transferrable to C#. Apparently this message is spam! It was initially cleared, I corrected a typo and was then left hanging as spam, how DARE I care about grammar! This copy has been brought to you by the magic of the clipboard.
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For the past weekend, I had been asking around people in my circle, if they know any junior .net developer looking for job. Surprisingly, the answer is NO. That make me realize that I don't have any connection with junior developers community :sigh: . So where are all the junior .net developers/ fresh graduated student hanging out? Where to find them? :omg: :omg: :omg:
Bryian Tan
25 years ago, I was teaching programming at a tech college for six years. One kind of student was universally "hated" by the lecturers: Those who got their first PC, with software development tools, at age 10 and after having played around with it for 8 years come to college "knowing everything" about programming. To unlearn them all the bad habits was a nightmare. (Once a student handed in to me a homework assginment in two versions: First, a reasonably good solution, headed by "This is how the professor forces us to program it:", then, as a huge comment block, headed by "This is how a real programmer would do it:" and the dirtiest, messiest code you could imagine. Nowadays, I work with a fair share of junior programmers, more or less right out of college (but all with an academic education), experiencing a deja vu. Those still glowing from the college oven know how everything should be done and organized and structured, attempting to turn the entire shop upside down. I mean, the problem isn't the lack of experience, but they believe they have it. Or rather, that their academic education is a lot more worth than any level of experience. None of them considers themselves junior developers, but rather glorious messengers who are there to enlighten the dark industrial world with the shining light from the new acacemic ideas. Sure, at least 90% of our developers have university level education. We probably behaved the same way in our first year or two. We were probably just as self confident as today's youngsters are. I guess that part of your problem is to make people realize that they are juinors. Admit that they do not know everything, even if they have picked up the latest crop of academic ideas. They know to sell themselves by "I know how to do it", not by "I am willing to learn how to do it the right way", which is far more true for a junior developer. But it doesn't sell.
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For the past weekend, I had been asking around people in my circle, if they know any junior .net developer looking for job. Surprisingly, the answer is NO. That make me realize that I don't have any connection with junior developers community :sigh: . So where are all the junior .net developers/ fresh graduated student hanging out? Where to find them? :omg: :omg: :omg:
Bryian Tan
A whole weekend? That's quite a while to be searching and not finding anyone. Anyway, junior [insert tech here] developers are not found; they are made. You're looking for graduates or people with logical thought processes, good attention to detail and a hands on "can do" attitude.
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This whole Jr/Sr level of developer has always bothered me a bit. It is supposed to imply experience AND ability. For example, I am a VERY GOOD problem solver. I solve the problem first, then write the code. I was trained as a "Programmer/Analyst" and I appreciate the Analyst part, which we have lost. So, while I am very Sr with problem solving, with .Net I am very Junior/Inexperienced. Although I have written about 500,000 lines of C code in my life, how do I apply for a Sr. Level C# position? In a one many shop, taking something over, I would be less effective than on a team with one really talented C# person to chop my learning curve. == So back to your question... The challenge is that we need to stay in touch with the schools, etc. if we want to find young talent. Coding schools, maybe, to find "fresh" talent (someone like me learning a new skill), and we have to separate skills in development from ability with a language. Just my 2 cents.
Yes!!! Connection/stay in touch with other organizations are very vital.
Bryian Tan
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A whole weekend? That's quite a while to be searching and not finding anyone. Anyway, junior [insert tech here] developers are not found; they are made. You're looking for graduates or people with logical thought processes, good attention to detail and a hands on "can do" attitude.
Good point.
Bryian Tan
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25 years ago, I was teaching programming at a tech college for six years. One kind of student was universally "hated" by the lecturers: Those who got their first PC, with software development tools, at age 10 and after having played around with it for 8 years come to college "knowing everything" about programming. To unlearn them all the bad habits was a nightmare. (Once a student handed in to me a homework assginment in two versions: First, a reasonably good solution, headed by "This is how the professor forces us to program it:", then, as a huge comment block, headed by "This is how a real programmer would do it:" and the dirtiest, messiest code you could imagine. Nowadays, I work with a fair share of junior programmers, more or less right out of college (but all with an academic education), experiencing a deja vu. Those still glowing from the college oven know how everything should be done and organized and structured, attempting to turn the entire shop upside down. I mean, the problem isn't the lack of experience, but they believe they have it. Or rather, that their academic education is a lot more worth than any level of experience. None of them considers themselves junior developers, but rather glorious messengers who are there to enlighten the dark industrial world with the shining light from the new acacemic ideas. Sure, at least 90% of our developers have university level education. We probably behaved the same way in our first year or two. We were probably just as self confident as today's youngsters are. I guess that part of your problem is to make people realize that they are juinors. Admit that they do not know everything, even if they have picked up the latest crop of academic ideas. They know to sell themselves by "I know how to do it", not by "I am willing to learn how to do it the right way", which is far more true for a junior developer. But it doesn't sell.
I think here another challenge, sometimes it depend on the pay scale too. If the position is paying xyz dollar, let say per industry standard, xyz dollar range is for Junior category. We can't advertise the job as "Mid-level or Senior" category position with xyz dollar pay rate.
Bryian Tan
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Garth J Lancaster wrote:
I fail to see the relevance of my nationality, but sure, if that's all you've got, take a swipe at me on that basis
Jesus Garth, the skin got a bit thin or what? Thought a bit shite flinging between the Kiwis and the Aussies was a given.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
Yeah, it is a given.
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You aren't expected to learn independently until grad school.
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For the past weekend, I had been asking around people in my circle, if they know any junior .net developer looking for job. Surprisingly, the answer is NO. That make me realize that I don't have any connection with junior developers community :sigh: . So where are all the junior .net developers/ fresh graduated student hanging out? Where to find them? :omg: :omg: :omg:
Bryian Tan
There's no such thing as a "junior" anymore. All of the NCGs are working on Python, Javascript and other stuff. C# and .NET in general doesn't exist to them.
"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." -- Marcus Brigstocke, British Comedian
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For the past weekend, I had been asking around people in my circle, if they know any junior .net developer looking for job. Surprisingly, the answer is NO. That make me realize that I don't have any connection with junior developers community :sigh: . So where are all the junior .net developers/ fresh graduated student hanging out? Where to find them? :omg: :omg: :omg:
Bryian Tan
In my experience, this shortage is due to the HOT or NOT view of programming. Dot.Net is not seen as sexy to the incoming crop of CS. Swift - Sexy C# / Xamarin - Not sexy Node/Angular - Sexy VB.NET - Not sexy...and worse - taught in pseudo-CS courses as "programming" PHP - Not Sexy ASP.NET - Not Sexy Java - Not Sexy Ruby on Rails - Used to be Sexy, but not anymore SQL Server = Not Sexy MongoDB - Sexy Postgres - Sexy MySQL - Not Sexy C - Nox Sexy In general Microsoft Backed - Less Sexy Open Source - More Sexy We have a rich code base in VB.NET, but have had to teach incoming employees the language and framework. Thankfully, it is super quick to get up to speed with. Which is probably why the only people who get VB.NET or C# experience are the CS-Lite degrees (Computer Engineering, etc.) I see new grads with Java,Erlang, Scala, Python, and Ruby "experience", of which we only commercially use Ruby. Java, which is taught almost exclusively at schools around San Diego, is something we don't even use.
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I remember an email this week from an agent looking for a senior .NET developer with 3+ years experience. To be fair I've also worked with senior developers with less ability than juniors/graduates. Titles mean far less than client requirements and day rate/salary. Also, years don't necessarily indicate experience.
It would have been possible for someone in 2005 to have had five years experience with .NET. You are forgetting that Microsoft had a beta program for .NET. I was a part of it, and have a vivid memory of being in Redmond, for a week in 1999 for a working session with Microsoft. One of the reasons it is vivid, is because of one session beginning at 4PM where the Microsoft team comes in in flannel shirts and blue jeans carrying a large tub filled with ice & beer. Then we got an impromptu session by the guy who wrote ASP.NET. It was pretty amazing watching him break the cardinal rule of presentations by slinging code in Notepad & not ever having anything break.
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For the past weekend, I had been asking around people in my circle, if they know any junior .net developer looking for job. Surprisingly, the answer is NO. That make me realize that I don't have any connection with junior developers community :sigh: . So where are all the junior .net developers/ fresh graduated student hanging out? Where to find them? :omg: :omg: :omg:
Bryian Tan
All the juniors from my college that I met are crazy about bootstrap and angular and php. :-D
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For the past weekend, I had been asking around people in my circle, if they know any junior .net developer looking for job. Surprisingly, the answer is NO. That make me realize that I don't have any connection with junior developers community :sigh: . So where are all the junior .net developers/ fresh graduated student hanging out? Where to find them? :omg: :omg: :omg:
Bryian Tan
I graduated four years ago from college -- and all I have been able to get are interviews for 5+ years to Senior Level roles. Nobody works with people anymore to train, Companies don't want American workers to train they all outsource Director and Sr. level roles from India, Russia, Pakistan, then that manager hires young people from his country.... Seen it for years. There is NO shortage of Jr. roles just a shortage of jobs because they are all being booked by foreign workers. Government, Silicon Valley, Microsoft, it's everywhere!!! :~
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For the past weekend, I had been asking around people in my circle, if they know any junior .net developer looking for job. Surprisingly, the answer is NO. That make me realize that I don't have any connection with junior developers community :sigh: . So where are all the junior .net developers/ fresh graduated student hanging out? Where to find them? :omg: :omg: :omg:
Bryian Tan