Now I know why I don't use ASP.NET, Razor, and all that cr*p
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Appreciate your need to rant, since we've all been there and it's probably quite cathartic. Ideally you wouldn't need to have cycles of starting web pages to test your serverside code, it should be covered by a suite of unit tests that can be run without starting up the entire application. Secondly I confirm what someone else mentioned here about trying more recent versions of ASP.Net / ASP.NET Core since it's designed to compete on performance with open source equivalents - part of this is creating a level playing field by allowing you turn off all the features that you don't want, allowing for a like for like comparison. We sometimes don't realise how many things you get for free with ASP.Net / IIS... so if you don't want those features, turn them off... and make sure you apply effective testing practices to streamline your development.
srcard wrote:
it should be covered by a suite of unit tests that can be run without starting up the entire application.
Quite true, except that having hardly ever used Razor, I just wanted to verify that the parameters were coming in correctly from the AJAX POST handler. But I totally agree, anything "real" should be unit testing.
srcard wrote:
so if you don't want those features, turn them off.
I'll poke around, I certainly don't need much for local build testing -- just serve the darn page! Marc
Latest Article - Merkle Trees Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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I'm sure you know your setup but it sounds like you need either a reloading of your system or you need to disable some sort of scanning software. I've done so with my stuff (almost exactly the same specs as yours) and I have great load times.
kristopher.baker wrote:
I'm sure you know your setup but it sounds like you need either a reloading of your system or you need to disable some sort of scanning software. I've done so with my stuff (almost exactly the same specs as yours) and I have great load times.
Can't. This is a company computer, and it's loaded with all sorts of BS scanners, admin alert crap, etc. Heck, they're probably watching me remotely without my knowing right now! Marc
Latest Article - Merkle Trees Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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The machine they give you at work is COMPLETELY responsible for your trouble. ASP.Net and its related technologies really are first-class in their capabilities. Of course, I'm still using the 2008 version of all this so maybe they've added some bloat in more recent versions.
ClockMeister wrote:
I'm still using the 2008 version of all this so maybe they've added some bloat in more recent versions.
I remember 2008 was fairly speedy, though I kept getting annoyed at the rendering time of the pages even then because of the template engine. On the other hand, I'm using the new and shiny VS2017! Haven't tried VS2008, which I think is installed somewhere, but certainly not on the office machine -- my only other option in VS2015. Marc
Latest Article - Merkle Trees Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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OK, granted, the specs on the computer at work suck: 8GB RAM i5-2500 CPU at 3.30Ghz Probably a 5400 RPM hard drive that's always thrashing. (and I seem to be one of the lucky ones with 8GB RAM!!!) However: 1. It takes for flipping ever (a good 30 seconds) for Visual Studio to launch the website as it interfaces through IIS and loads a hundred System.Microsoft.sh*t assemblies. 2. If I try to debug, it's about a 60 second wait time, a message frequently pops up that something can't start, it tries to integrate debugging with Chrome (for elephants sake, I'm trying to debug the server-side C# code, not the Javascript, I'll use the console window in Chrome for that, thank you very elephanting much, I don't need or want integrated Javascript client debugging in the IDE) 3. If #2 happens, I have to reset the URL to localhost:[someport] 4. Now remember, I'm running this stuff as localhost, so everything is elaphanting LOCAL. Yet it takes a good 10 seconds to load a "hello world" page. The time delays are what gets me the most. So many elephanting sub-systems seem to be involved. Conversely, the web sites that I write don't use ASP.NET, Razor, or any of that garbage. The server launches instantly, the web pages come up instantly, and I'm a happy camper debugging server side code in the VS and client-side code in Chrome. My experience with Microsoft's high-level technologies for web development makes me X| Sadly, I have to use this pile of stinking dung for a simple project at work. And as I said above, the crap machine they give you here at work is probably in large part responsible for my experience. Marc
Latest Article - Merkle Trees Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
VS 2017 is a lot faster - if you're on 2015, I think you can upgrade and still work with projects created in 2015.
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OK, granted, the specs on the computer at work suck: 8GB RAM i5-2500 CPU at 3.30Ghz Probably a 5400 RPM hard drive that's always thrashing. (and I seem to be one of the lucky ones with 8GB RAM!!!) However: 1. It takes for flipping ever (a good 30 seconds) for Visual Studio to launch the website as it interfaces through IIS and loads a hundred System.Microsoft.sh*t assemblies. 2. If I try to debug, it's about a 60 second wait time, a message frequently pops up that something can't start, it tries to integrate debugging with Chrome (for elephants sake, I'm trying to debug the server-side C# code, not the Javascript, I'll use the console window in Chrome for that, thank you very elephanting much, I don't need or want integrated Javascript client debugging in the IDE) 3. If #2 happens, I have to reset the URL to localhost:[someport] 4. Now remember, I'm running this stuff as localhost, so everything is elaphanting LOCAL. Yet it takes a good 10 seconds to load a "hello world" page. The time delays are what gets me the most. So many elephanting sub-systems seem to be involved. Conversely, the web sites that I write don't use ASP.NET, Razor, or any of that garbage. The server launches instantly, the web pages come up instantly, and I'm a happy camper debugging server side code in the VS and client-side code in Chrome. My experience with Microsoft's high-level technologies for web development makes me X| Sadly, I have to use this pile of stinking dung for a simple project at work. And as I said above, the crap machine they give you here at work is probably in large part responsible for my experience. Marc
Latest Article - Merkle Trees Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
I get the following configured use a Local IIS, not Express disable Browser Link no need to have it running in debug to View the web site If Server changes (cs, controllers) - then build and will take a few seconds for IIS to re load site If only client side (cshtml, javascipt, css, html) changes - no need to build. Simply Save file, refresh web page, done. I use chrome - in dev tool network tab, make sure disable cache is on, else that refresh page might not get the changes.
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That's a great post. I agree with you. This is a great summary of the situation...
Marc Clifton wrote:
And the tradeoff is actually less with regards to technology than it is to people's perception, buy in, and willingness to learn,
Master developers can create new frameworks that have considered trade-offs and which create architectural frameworks that can be passed on to others. I honestly think that is the case of what you have. Now, getting others to buy in to that can be problematic. Also, many companies are just going to ask what Stack you're working on and expect a limited answer like: 1. ASP.NET MVC 2. LAMP 3. AngularJS (which isn't actually complete either since you need backend) -- but just saying Angular gives a dev Gravitas. :) 4. other stack But my point here is that companies just hear the buzzwords and have good or bad feelings about the specific stack and that's basically how they determine their architectural underpinnings. Or some guy comes along and says, "I know Python and Django. I could do the whole thing in a week." 2 years later.... :laugh:
"
Or some guy comes along and says, "I know Python and Django. I could do the whole thing in a week."
2 years later.... Laugh | :laugh:
" Yup - been there, suffered through that. X| Perfectly describes a couple of projects I worked on where some noob engineer comes by with the latest toy language/framework/whatever and promises the world to management, who naturally buy into it. :doh: I'll stick with what works, then add new stuff if it helps.
"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." -- Marcus Brigstocke, British Comedian
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ClockMeister wrote:
I'm still using the 2008 version of all this so maybe they've added some bloat in more recent versions.
I remember 2008 was fairly speedy, though I kept getting annoyed at the rendering time of the pages even then because of the template engine. On the other hand, I'm using the new and shiny VS2017! Haven't tried VS2008, which I think is installed somewhere, but certainly not on the office machine -- my only other option in VS2015. Marc
Latest Article - Merkle Trees Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
Hey Marc, I've got VS2017 in a Windows 10 VM (neither of which I do anything but fiddle with). I do some coding in VS2010 (C# & VB.Net) but for my own stuff I stick with VS2008/Active Reports 6/SQL Server (2008->2014). Most of my work is desktop / back end stuff and a spattering of ASP.Net - I really don't have any reason to upgrade my tools (especially since I pay for them myself). The output from my 2008 released stuff works on everything from XP on up through 10 - I just don't see any point in spending coin for upgrades to something that does the job just fine. The bottom line here is, basically, "If it ain't broke, why fix it?" ;-) :cool:Olde Country Programmer (Clockmeister)
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Chris Maunder wrote:
Have you played with the new ASP.NET Core stuff?
No, but I actually want to. I imagine it's a lot lighter weight, given that IIS doesn't exist (and hopefully never will) on Linux boxes.
Chris Maunder wrote:
What are you currently using?
I wrote my own HTTP/S server from core .NET classes (not "Core" stuff), use a "semantic" multithreading router, and rely heavily on Newtonsoft.Json. The rest is jQuery, Bootstrap, and maybe a wee bit of Knockout (I really have little use for MVVM models, actually, as crazy as that sounds) and lots of Ajax for a nice responsive UI experience, wrapped in some client-side libraries I put together to make life easier (less typing) and my UI poison of choice is jqWidgets (which is actually quite cool.) No Angular. No Backbone. No React. It's amazing how much can get done when you don't add several framework layers between point A (give me the value of this control) to point B (send it to the server.) Marc
Latest Article - Merkle Trees Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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Gary Wheeler wrote:
Actually, I consider myself to be an [Anarchist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism) and in another 10 or 20 years, I'll probably actually look a lot like [Mikhail Bakunin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail\_Bakunin)! Marc
Latest Article - Merkle Trees Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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OK, granted, the specs on the computer at work suck: 8GB RAM i5-2500 CPU at 3.30Ghz Probably a 5400 RPM hard drive that's always thrashing. (and I seem to be one of the lucky ones with 8GB RAM!!!) However: 1. It takes for flipping ever (a good 30 seconds) for Visual Studio to launch the website as it interfaces through IIS and loads a hundred System.Microsoft.sh*t assemblies. 2. If I try to debug, it's about a 60 second wait time, a message frequently pops up that something can't start, it tries to integrate debugging with Chrome (for elephants sake, I'm trying to debug the server-side C# code, not the Javascript, I'll use the console window in Chrome for that, thank you very elephanting much, I don't need or want integrated Javascript client debugging in the IDE) 3. If #2 happens, I have to reset the URL to localhost:[someport] 4. Now remember, I'm running this stuff as localhost, so everything is elaphanting LOCAL. Yet it takes a good 10 seconds to load a "hello world" page. The time delays are what gets me the most. So many elephanting sub-systems seem to be involved. Conversely, the web sites that I write don't use ASP.NET, Razor, or any of that garbage. The server launches instantly, the web pages come up instantly, and I'm a happy camper debugging server side code in the VS and client-side code in Chrome. My experience with Microsoft's high-level technologies for web development makes me X| Sadly, I have to use this pile of stinking dung for a simple project at work. And as I said above, the crap machine they give you here at work is probably in large part responsible for my experience. Marc
Latest Article - Merkle Trees Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
Sounds like you got System's problems that have nothing to do with visual studio. If the company is encrypting a non-SSD hard drive it will make the system unusable. Virus scanners in network protection will also cause problems. You may also want to check for a proxy server. If none of these suggestions Help, I suggest getting another machine and do a clean install of windows and visual studio and start from there. Do not let your ops people do this as they will install all the security crap and hard drive and encryption that will make machine unusable. alSo keep the machine off the domain.Try loading up your hello world site then and see where you are. This is the only way to isolate whether the problem is something with your solution for a problem with the way your machines are built and configured.
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OK, granted, the specs on the computer at work suck: 8GB RAM i5-2500 CPU at 3.30Ghz Probably a 5400 RPM hard drive that's always thrashing. (and I seem to be one of the lucky ones with 8GB RAM!!!) However: 1. It takes for flipping ever (a good 30 seconds) for Visual Studio to launch the website as it interfaces through IIS and loads a hundred System.Microsoft.sh*t assemblies. 2. If I try to debug, it's about a 60 second wait time, a message frequently pops up that something can't start, it tries to integrate debugging with Chrome (for elephants sake, I'm trying to debug the server-side C# code, not the Javascript, I'll use the console window in Chrome for that, thank you very elephanting much, I don't need or want integrated Javascript client debugging in the IDE) 3. If #2 happens, I have to reset the URL to localhost:[someport] 4. Now remember, I'm running this stuff as localhost, so everything is elaphanting LOCAL. Yet it takes a good 10 seconds to load a "hello world" page. The time delays are what gets me the most. So many elephanting sub-systems seem to be involved. Conversely, the web sites that I write don't use ASP.NET, Razor, or any of that garbage. The server launches instantly, the web pages come up instantly, and I'm a happy camper debugging server side code in the VS and client-side code in Chrome. My experience with Microsoft's high-level technologies for web development makes me X| Sadly, I have to use this pile of stinking dung for a simple project at work. And as I said above, the crap machine they give you here at work is probably in large part responsible for my experience. Marc
Latest Article - Merkle Trees Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
I know you said you were completely local on your project but a mention for something I learned, in case it exists: any references to dlls in your project that point to a network location actually slowed things down way more than imagined. So, if you have some reusable libraries that are maybe out on a network share, that could help (to move locally).
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"
Or some guy comes along and says, "I know Python and Django. I could do the whole thing in a week."
2 years later.... Laugh | :laugh:
" Yup - been there, suffered through that. X| Perfectly describes a couple of projects I worked on where some noob engineer comes by with the latest toy language/framework/whatever and promises the world to management, who naturally buy into it. :doh: I'll stick with what works, then add new stuff if it helps.
"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." -- Marcus Brigstocke, British Comedian