On alarmist crap, otherwise known as climate change...
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
You mean 'can't' surely?
Actually no, I meant "can" I though my ironic joke was clear enough. Note: I do can maybe have said it wrongly (non native speaker here)
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
OK. So, no examples of such chemical or physical processes then? ;)
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OK. So, no examples of such chemical or physical processes then? ;)
i.e. Throw a stone on water... in the moment the stone leaves your hand there is no return, but the waves on water surface didn't happened yet.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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i.e. Throw a stone on water... in the moment the stone leaves your hand there is no return, but the waves on water surface didn't happened yet.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
Oh, I thought you were going to provide some insight into a complicated process or system. Chucking a stone in water is pretty simplistic dont you think? I already had a better example, the alignment of stressed bonds in metal prior to a fracture (which actually causes hardening just prior to the fracture). This can be undone by annealing, but in any case is still an example of a change prior to its visible impact. As for being reversible though, given that an el-nino year can result in a surface warming and cooling of 1 C, over a couple of years: Wood for Trees: Interactive Graphs[^] that adding 0.8 C over a century can be undone over a century?
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Oh, I thought you were going to provide some insight into a complicated process or system. Chucking a stone in water is pretty simplistic dont you think? I already had a better example, the alignment of stressed bonds in metal prior to a fracture (which actually causes hardening just prior to the fracture). This can be undone by annealing, but in any case is still an example of a change prior to its visible impact. As for being reversible though, given that an el-nino year can result in a surface warming and cooling of 1 C, over a couple of years: Wood for Trees: Interactive Graphs[^] that adding 0.8 C over a century can be undone over a century?
Why to make it more complicated than needed? The point is, there are ;P As per el_nino year... I stop the discussion here. I just did a joke about what the prince said. That's all. About how we are scrapping the planet.. I already have my opinion, in a lot of points we agree, in other we won't ever agree.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Why to make it more complicated than needed? The point is, there are ;P As per el_nino year... I stop the discussion here. I just did a joke about what the prince said. That's all. About how we are scrapping the planet.. I already have my opinion, in a lot of points we agree, in other we won't ever agree.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
I used to think man was a cancer on the planet, but in reality, as I have matured, I see us as just monkeys with brains, who use the planet like every other animal does. So in the same way a colony of sea birds turns their nesting site (entire islands) into an unholy mountain of white excrement, man has the propensity to do the same. We need to guard against doing that, and we do. We can always do better though, but I no longer see us as not being entitled to use the planet.
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Just 96 months to save world, says Prince Charles | The Independent[^] "The heir to the throne told an audience of industrialists and environmentalists at St James's Palace last night that he had calculated that we have just 96 months left to save the world." That was in 2009. We just passed 96 months this week. Of course anyone who disagreed with him was a 'denier'. :) And people wonder why we dont take them seriously...
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I used to think man was a cancer on the planet, but in reality, as I have matured, I see us as just monkeys with brains, who use the planet like every other animal does. So in the same way a colony of sea birds turns their nesting site (entire islands) into an unholy mountain of white excrement, man has the propensity to do the same. We need to guard against doing that, and we do. We can always do better though, but I no longer see us as not being entitled to use the planet.
Munchies_Matt wrote:
So in the same way a colony of sea birds turns their nesting site (entire islands) into an unholy mountain of white excrement, man has the propensity to do the same.
One of the biggest differences is, that mountain of excrement will be the aliment for other specie or will be somehow naturally used / recycled. Plastic, radioactive waste and other kind of crap we (and only we) produce, is a number too high for that natural process. Please note I am not saying it is impossible for the nature to get ride of them, only that the efforts / time needed for that are huge in comparison. But, as I already said other times, I am neither a saint nor an activist. I like the freedom I have going to work with my car instead of the public transportation, I like the benefits of technology and living in "first world". I just try to reduce my part of "harm to the world" as much as I can without affecting my life, avoiding what I don't consider really needed for me or my family.
Munchies_Matt wrote:
We can always do better though, but I no longer see us as not being entitled to use the planet.
I have no problem with us using it, the only problem I have is with abusing it.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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You must be a very happy man. Every day you wake up and the planet is still there is another schadenfreude fest.
How is the planet being there every day 'taking pleasure in someone else's misfortune'?
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
So in the same way a colony of sea birds turns their nesting site (entire islands) into an unholy mountain of white excrement, man has the propensity to do the same.
One of the biggest differences is, that mountain of excrement will be the aliment for other specie or will be somehow naturally used / recycled. Plastic, radioactive waste and other kind of crap we (and only we) produce, is a number too high for that natural process. Please note I am not saying it is impossible for the nature to get ride of them, only that the efforts / time needed for that are huge in comparison. But, as I already said other times, I am neither a saint nor an activist. I like the freedom I have going to work with my car instead of the public transportation, I like the benefits of technology and living in "first world". I just try to reduce my part of "harm to the world" as much as I can without affecting my life, avoiding what I don't consider really needed for me or my family.
Munchies_Matt wrote:
We can always do better though, but I no longer see us as not being entitled to use the planet.
I have no problem with us using it, the only problem I have is with abusing it.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
I think we agree on that.
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Just 96 months to save world, says Prince Charles | The Independent[^] "The heir to the throne told an audience of industrialists and environmentalists at St James's Palace last night that he had calculated that we have just 96 months left to save the world." That was in 2009. We just passed 96 months this week. Of course anyone who disagreed with him was a 'denier'. :) And people wonder why we dont take them seriously...
Munchies_Matt wrote:
We just passed 96 months this week.
I think he may have forgotten to carry the 1 in his calculations. :-D
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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How is the planet being there every day 'taking pleasure in someone else's misfortune'?
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M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Just 96 months to save world, says Prince Charles | The Independent[^] "The heir to the throne told an audience of industrialists and environmentalists at St James's Palace last night that he had calculated that we have just 96 months left to save the world." That was in 2009. We just passed 96 months this week. Of course anyone who disagreed with him was a 'denier'. :) And people wonder why we dont take them seriously...
So, I recall reading an article some time ago about the planet already having crossed the point of no return with regard to 'devastating' climate change. I Googled, and this article seems like what I'm probably thinking of: The World Passes 400 PPM Threshold. Permanently[^] That was back in late September of 2016. The gist here is that, at this point, we can only keep things from getting worse. Those bad things that scientists have been warning everyone about for decades? They're going to happen. They're already happening. Even if we stopped all artificial addition of CO2 to the atmosphere, coastal regions are still going to flood, coral reefs are still going to be damaged, and heat waves and droughts are going to get worse. We are past the point of being able to avoid any serious consequences. We're in the damage mitigation phase now. And our lovely denier 'President' Trump decided he didn't want any part of the Paris Climate Agreement. Good job. Guess he would prefer the White House to be beach-front property... :doh:
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So, I recall reading an article some time ago about the planet already having crossed the point of no return with regard to 'devastating' climate change. I Googled, and this article seems like what I'm probably thinking of: The World Passes 400 PPM Threshold. Permanently[^] That was back in late September of 2016. The gist here is that, at this point, we can only keep things from getting worse. Those bad things that scientists have been warning everyone about for decades? They're going to happen. They're already happening. Even if we stopped all artificial addition of CO2 to the atmosphere, coastal regions are still going to flood, coral reefs are still going to be damaged, and heat waves and droughts are going to get worse. We are past the point of being able to avoid any serious consequences. We're in the damage mitigation phase now. And our lovely denier 'President' Trump decided he didn't want any part of the Paris Climate Agreement. Good job. Guess he would prefer the White House to be beach-front property... :doh:
You know you have just opened Pandora's Box, don't you?
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Ah, OK. :confused:
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So, I recall reading an article some time ago about the planet already having crossed the point of no return with regard to 'devastating' climate change. I Googled, and this article seems like what I'm probably thinking of: The World Passes 400 PPM Threshold. Permanently[^] That was back in late September of 2016. The gist here is that, at this point, we can only keep things from getting worse. Those bad things that scientists have been warning everyone about for decades? They're going to happen. They're already happening. Even if we stopped all artificial addition of CO2 to the atmosphere, coastal regions are still going to flood, coral reefs are still going to be damaged, and heat waves and droughts are going to get worse. We are past the point of being able to avoid any serious consequences. We're in the damage mitigation phase now. And our lovely denier 'President' Trump decided he didn't want any part of the Paris Climate Agreement. Good job. Guess he would prefer the White House to be beach-front property... :doh:
You see this is where we disagree. Everything you are saying sounds like nothing more than 'chicken little, the sky is falling' alarmism, which is based not in science, but in fantasy. There is nothing to worry about. A bit of sea level rise, a bit of warming, much more plant growth. Thats what science AND data actually say. Take a look out the window. What do you see thats a problem?
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Just 96 months to save world, says Prince Charles | The Independent[^] "The heir to the throne told an audience of industrialists and environmentalists at St James's Palace last night that he had calculated that we have just 96 months left to save the world." That was in 2009. We just passed 96 months this week. Of course anyone who disagreed with him was a 'denier'. :) And people wonder why we dont take them seriously...
Munchies_Matt wrote:
Of course anyone who disagreed with him was a 'denier'
Has nothing to do with him. And there was no scientific consensus about his statements. Just as there isn't for his contention that Complementary Alternative Medicine is viable. Deniers are those that ignore all of science and cherry pick the rare study that temporarily supports their position or worse rely on poor studies or even just commentary that is wrong.
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You know you have just opened Pandora's Box, don't you?
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
Perhaps. But like religion, I welcome a calm, grounded, debate on the topic. You'd be surprised what people can learn from each other if they are just willing to behave like adults. ;P
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You see this is where we disagree. Everything you are saying sounds like nothing more than 'chicken little, the sky is falling' alarmism, which is based not in science, but in fantasy. There is nothing to worry about. A bit of sea level rise, a bit of warming, much more plant growth. Thats what science AND data actually say. Take a look out the window. What do you see thats a problem?
Well, I'm not a climatologist. But like any rational person, I'm willing to defer to others that are more expert on a topic than I am. That said, I don't blindly trust everything an 'expert' claims; I still dissect the topic critically, and try to discern if what they are claiming passes the sanity test. So, when I am presented with historical data about how atmospheric CO2 has consistently risen (and fallen, as part of the natural recapturing process in the summer growing season, however less,) then it passes the sanity test. We keep burning fossil fuels, CO2 rises, planet gets hotter. Basic, historically supported, cause and effect. The planet is also much warmer than it should be, compared to historical data and models (the planet has had hot and cold periods, cyclically, for millions of years, but currently we're hotter than previous data shows we should be.) Now, are we past the point of no return? I'm not qualified to answer that question. To me it looks like we are. We're already seeing environmental issues related to the rise in the average temperature of the planet (coral bleaching, sea level changes, heat waves...) So if more CO2 makes the planet hotter, and the current heat level is causing problems... And we aren't actively removing CO2 from the atmosphere... To me, that says the problem is going to get worse before it gets better. If you have a measured argument to the contrary, I'm happy to listen.
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Well, I'm not a climatologist. But like any rational person, I'm willing to defer to others that are more expert on a topic than I am. That said, I don't blindly trust everything an 'expert' claims; I still dissect the topic critically, and try to discern if what they are claiming passes the sanity test. So, when I am presented with historical data about how atmospheric CO2 has consistently risen (and fallen, as part of the natural recapturing process in the summer growing season, however less,) then it passes the sanity test. We keep burning fossil fuels, CO2 rises, planet gets hotter. Basic, historically supported, cause and effect. The planet is also much warmer than it should be, compared to historical data and models (the planet has had hot and cold periods, cyclically, for millions of years, but currently we're hotter than previous data shows we should be.) Now, are we past the point of no return? I'm not qualified to answer that question. To me it looks like we are. We're already seeing environmental issues related to the rise in the average temperature of the planet (coral bleaching, sea level changes, heat waves...) So if more CO2 makes the planet hotter, and the current heat level is causing problems... And we aren't actively removing CO2 from the atmosphere... To me, that says the problem is going to get worse before it gets better. If you have a measured argument to the contrary, I'm happy to listen.
Kyle Moyer wrote:
I'm willing to defer to others that are more expert on a topic than I am
And there are a lot of experts who say climate response to CO2 is on the low side. DO you pay any ayention to them? It seems not.
Kyle Moyer wrote:
So, when I am presented with historical data about how atmospheric CO2 has consistently risen (and fallen, as part of the natural recapturing process in the summer growing season, however less,) then it passes the sanity test. We keep burning fossil fuels, CO2 rises, planet gets hotter. Basic, historically supported, cause and effect
Ice core data you mean? You do know CO2 lags temperature in this data thus suggesting the cause and effect is backwards, and merely a case of warm water being able to hold less CO2? It is called outgassing. Many experts have discussed this, Carl Wunsh is one such expert. Have you heard of him?
Kyle Moyer wrote:
he planet is also much warmer than it should be, compared to historical data and models
Define 'should'. Who decides what it is? Taking a look at greenland ice core data (represents the norther hemisphere nicely): [^] you can see long periods where it was a degree or two warmer than today. As for comparing the earth to models and saying the earth is warmer than it should be, this is crazy. How can you say a thing that imperfectly models another has greater veracity?
Kyle Moyer wrote:
To me it looks like we are
Another past temperature graph going back much further: [^] Today we are a massive 11C colder than most of the earths history so for whatever reason, it has got a lot colder. This means that there is no 'tipping point', no 'point of no return'.
Kyle Moyer wrote:
We're already seeing environmental issues related to the rise in the average temperature of the planet (coral bleaching, sea level changes, heat waves...)
