Time
-
Prexactly
Everyone has a photographic memory; some just don't have film. Steven Wright
How is that pronounced?
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
Consider if the universe were an absolute void. I would put forward that time doesn't exist because nothing happens and nothing can happen. This is the ultimate in a stateless condition. Now, as soon as there is something, or better yet, somethings, the possibility of time becomes more and more a mandatory consequence.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
I am familiar with the big-bang theory. It also does not limit its existence to when there is an observer.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
-
Consider if the universe were an absolute void. I would put forward that time doesn't exist because nothing happens and nothing can happen. This is the ultimate in a stateless condition. Now, as soon as there is something, or better yet, somethings, the possibility of time becomes more and more a mandatory consequence.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
The absence of matter does not mean nothing happens. Because of the uncertainty principle you have processes happening even in an empty space. [Casimir effect - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir\_effect) and Hawking radiation per example. For time to vanish, you need to have a hypothetical state with zero degrees of freedom.
They buy shoes, then they wear them! They make them sound old! Dairy! Dairy!
-
The absence of matter does not mean nothing happens. Because of the uncertainty principle you have processes happening even in an empty space. [Casimir effect - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir\_effect) and Hawking radiation per example. For time to vanish, you need to have a hypothetical state with zero degrees of freedom.
They buy shoes, then they wear them! They make them sound old! Dairy! Dairy!
Absolute Void. There is no frame of reference for 'anything' because there is nothing. Do you have any degrees of freedom for that?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
I am familiar with the big-bang theory. It also does not limit its existence to when there is an observer.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
In an absolute void, there's nothing to go 'bang' - even a singularity would mean we do not have an absolute void. Or - are you hypothesizing nothing will hypothetically become something, eventually? Excuse the recursion as 'eventually' pre-supposes time, which is the item in question.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
In an absolute void, there's nothing to go 'bang' - even a singularity would mean we do not have an absolute void. Or - are you hypothesizing nothing will hypothetically become something, eventually? Excuse the recursion as 'eventually' pre-supposes time, which is the item in question.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
In an absolute void, there's nothing to go 'bang' - even a singularity would mean we do not have an absolute void.
There is, half a cat's worth. First there was nothing, then there was half a cat, which caused the universe to expand.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
Or - are you hypothesizing nothing will hypothetically become something, eventually? Excuse the recursion as 'eventually' pre-supposes time, which is the item in question.
That is currently used as the most probable thing to have happened. The idea that time does not exist in a void might only mathematically be true; time in a void is meaningless mathematically, since there is no "from A to B", there cannot be time that passes when travelling between those points (mathematically), but it may still exist. If you have any better explanation which does not involve any Gods, I'm all ears :)
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
-
W∴ Balboos wrote:
In an absolute void, there's nothing to go 'bang' - even a singularity would mean we do not have an absolute void.
There is, half a cat's worth. First there was nothing, then there was half a cat, which caused the universe to expand.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
Or - are you hypothesizing nothing will hypothetically become something, eventually? Excuse the recursion as 'eventually' pre-supposes time, which is the item in question.
That is currently used as the most probable thing to have happened. The idea that time does not exist in a void might only mathematically be true; time in a void is meaningless mathematically, since there is no "from A to B", there cannot be time that passes when travelling between those points (mathematically), but it may still exist. If you have any better explanation which does not involve any Gods, I'm all ears :)
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
There is, half a cat's worth. First there was nothing, then there was half a cat, which caused the universe to expand.
All of that does depend, does it not, in not knowing what's in the box? Suppose there were no box and you looked at a location - the probability factor is not the same concept at all: it is or it isn't. The box, hiding the cat (or whether it's alive or not) is an important component. An all-encompassing absolute void? That is stateless. The cat is not stateless.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
Consider: Entropy gives a direction to time - but is it an inevitable outcome that time exists just because something would influence it? I'm no sure that entropy implies time. Perhaps the reverse?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
There is, half a cat's worth. First there was nothing, then there was half a cat, which caused the universe to expand.
All of that does depend, does it not, in not knowing what's in the box? Suppose there were no box and you looked at a location - the probability factor is not the same concept at all: it is or it isn't. The box, hiding the cat (or whether it's alive or not) is an important component. An all-encompassing absolute void? That is stateless. The cat is not stateless.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
An all-encompassing absolute void? That is stateless.
How can a void be all-encompassing? :D There is not a void now, so it may be safe to say that there was not a "perfect void".
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
-
In the future time is outmoded. Once things happen fast enough* time stops because all things are complete at once. I think it occurs when your download speeds hit 1PBPS (Petabit). :rolleyes: *Think about that too... Two Ways To Stop Time Make everything happen so fast it all happens at once: time stops. Make everything happen so slowly that nothing happens: time stops. :cool:
There mat be a fly in your reasoning, or perhaps a flaw in your ointment. As a photon travels at the speed of light, time does not exists for it*, but us folks still get old and die - bummer! Actually, time WILL stop - when the universe is driven to maximum entropy by dark energy eventually even tearing apart quarks. With no more entropy possible, time will cease to exist. *This actually means that there only needs to be one photon at a time in the universe, as it can be in all places simultaneously. I just don't think the universe has woken up and smelt the coffee yet. :laugh:
-
W∴ Balboos wrote:
An all-encompassing absolute void? That is stateless.
How can a void be all-encompassing? :D There is not a void now, so it may be safe to say that there was not a "perfect void".
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
How can a void be all-encompassing?
Because there is nothing (not even an observer) - period. Now where, no how, no one. ALL
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
There is not a void now, so it may be safe to say that there was not a "perfect void".
You're getting lost in that you're mixing your reality with speculative theory. I do not refer to 'what was, is , or will be'. What you see/feel/hear now, along with your description - constitute a pre-disposed historical state - and can arguably be considered off-topic. You cannot validly use time to determine if it would or wouldn't exist: as by doing so you've taken sides and (by definition) declared a winner.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
Absolute Void. There is no frame of reference for 'anything' because there is nothing. Do you have any degrees of freedom for that?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Yes, but an absolute void would only last for less than one unit of Plank time owing to vacuum energy. The quantum foam would start almost instantaneously. Most of the mass/energy of a neutron is due to the spontaneous generation of particles within its empty spaces.
-
The absence of matter does not mean nothing happens. Because of the uncertainty principle you have processes happening even in an empty space. [Casimir effect - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir\_effect) and Hawking radiation per example. For time to vanish, you need to have a hypothetical state with zero degrees of freedom.
They buy shoes, then they wear them! They make them sound old! Dairy! Dairy!
Stable Genius wrote:
Because of the uncertainty principle you have processes happening even in an empty space.
It is not just that something came from nothing; it was a whole lot that came from there. Something that hasn't happened since.
Stable Genius wrote:
For time to vanish, you need to have a hypothetical state with zero degrees of freedom.
A desk in a cubicle?
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
-
Yes, but an absolute void would only last for less than one unit of Plank time owing to vacuum energy. The quantum foam would start almost instantaneously. Most of the mass/energy of a neutron is due to the spontaneous generation of particles within its empty spaces.
So I looked it up:
Quote:
Vacuum energy is an underlying background energy that exists in space throughout the entire Universe. One contribution to the vacuum energy may be from virtual particles which are thought to be particle pairs that blink into existence and then annihilate in a timespan too short to observe.Sep 18, 2016
Note the portion I underlined. If one had a total void, that includes everything. Not just 'matter' - especially since matter and energy are interchangeable. You bring forward what can be an interesting side-bar:
Chris C-B wrote:
Most of the mass/energy of a neutron is due to the spontaneous generation of particles within its empty spaces.
This begs a question: you used the term 'most' - what about the rest of it?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
How can a void be all-encompassing?
Because there is nothing (not even an observer) - period. Now where, no how, no one. ALL
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
There is not a void now, so it may be safe to say that there was not a "perfect void".
You're getting lost in that you're mixing your reality with speculative theory. I do not refer to 'what was, is , or will be'. What you see/feel/hear now, along with your description - constitute a pre-disposed historical state - and can arguably be considered off-topic. You cannot validly use time to determine if it would or wouldn't exist: as by doing so you've taken sides and (by definition) declared a winner.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
Because there is nothing (not even an observer) - period. Now where, no how, no one. ALL
All is in that case exactly nothing, which encompasses.. nothing :D
W∴ Balboos wrote:
What you see/feel/hear now, along with your description - constitute a pre-disposed historical state
No, just pointing out that there is "something" now, and that your described perfect void is just a speculative theory :thumbsup:
W∴ Balboos wrote:
You cannot validly use time to determine if it would or wouldn't exist: as by doing so you've taken sides and (by definition) declared a winner.
I wasn't; I was using math and space, and explaining how time arises from those concepts. Still doesn't mean that time would not exist without them.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
-
If mankind wasn't there to perceive it, would time still exist?
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013But some 'times' are imitable, for instance "it's always :beer:oclock somewhere - always true even if nobody's drinking [yet]. therefore, by virtue of the indisputable fact that :beer: exists (coz I can see one right here): time exists. pre-:beer:? who cares, all we know of that for sure is it was sad, really really sad.
This internet thing is amazing! Letting people use it: worst idea ever!
-
If mankind wasn't there to perceive it, would time still exist?
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
So I looked it up:
Quote:
Vacuum energy is an underlying background energy that exists in space throughout the entire Universe. One contribution to the vacuum energy may be from virtual particles which are thought to be particle pairs that blink into existence and then annihilate in a timespan too short to observe.Sep 18, 2016
Note the portion I underlined. If one had a total void, that includes everything. Not just 'matter' - especially since matter and energy are interchangeable. You bring forward what can be an interesting side-bar:
Chris C-B wrote:
Most of the mass/energy of a neutron is due to the spontaneous generation of particles within its empty spaces.
This begs a question: you used the term 'most' - what about the rest of it?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
No offense but you have no idea what you are talking about. Watch this: [NOTHING: The Science of Emptiness - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCUmeE8sIVo) Might be a starter for you to get some information on the subject.
They buy shoes, then they wear them! They make them sound old! Dairy! Dairy!
-
So I looked it up:
Quote:
Vacuum energy is an underlying background energy that exists in space throughout the entire Universe. One contribution to the vacuum energy may be from virtual particles which are thought to be particle pairs that blink into existence and then annihilate in a timespan too short to observe.Sep 18, 2016
Note the portion I underlined. If one had a total void, that includes everything. Not just 'matter' - especially since matter and energy are interchangeable. You bring forward what can be an interesting side-bar:
Chris C-B wrote:
Most of the mass/energy of a neutron is due to the spontaneous generation of particles within its empty spaces.
This begs a question: you used the term 'most' - what about the rest of it?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
If one had a total void, that includes everything.
I don't think such a beast can exist, unless it is in a universe that has no laws of quantum theory, in which case the universe can't exist, so the void can't exist either. It all gets a bit existential from there on, with such things as "What was there before the big bang?" or "Why is there something rather than nothing?". Makes my head hurt. :laugh:
W∴ Balboos wrote:
This begs a question: you used the term 'most' - what about the rest of it?
The three quarks for Muster Mark contribution - one Up and two Down.
-
No offense but you have no idea what you are talking about. Watch this: [NOTHING: The Science of Emptiness - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCUmeE8sIVo) Might be a starter for you to get some information on the subject.
They buy shoes, then they wear them! They make them sound old! Dairy! Dairy!
A void. An absolute total "all-encompassing" absence. Not a quantum vacuum. No matter of any kind. No energy. No waves. No concept of volume. No between. No direction. It is not actually visualizeable as that induces boundary conditions - that your mind is trying to be an observer, for example, which defines an 'else'. You need to delve further into the abstraction. This was not actually part of their discussion. Basically, the barrier in the "there was no before the big bang" statement - the content of "the before".
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
