The march toward UWP/Core ?
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Marc Clifton wrote:
I was reminded again last week about the well-termed abomination of the DataGridView when I was writing a configuration UI for a silly little app that I'm writing an article about, and don't want to tie the reader to a 3rd party requirement. We hates it!
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Have you tried CListCtrl?
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
Michael Martin wrote:
Have you tried CListCtrl?
It's a good point and we often do that trade-off here when we want to do some list/grid view type of data. The bad thing is that DataGridView makes some things so easy (laziness rules!) like the way you can set the datasource to a dataset and forget about it. Or, well, you can forget about good functionality and nice UI too, but laziness rules!!!. Then you go to use the ListView and you can make it look so nice but it so much work. :confused: X| :| Laziness rules!!! :laugh:
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I'm reading these out of order, but this is another great write-up. Maybe you ought to write up an article on this. Something like, "State of Windows Desktop Development: What Has Been, What Is, and What Will It Be?" :) :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
I appreciate your kind words, Raddevus, but Bill (now seventy-five, and near half-blind) is no one to talk about "big picture" software development in the last few years. Bill is busy making rings to sell so he can hopefully save his eyes while remaining in the strange country, Thailand, he has come to love; and, when he's not doing that, or pursuing his own creative writing, or studying the iconography of Asian sacred/animist art, ancient trade routes, and folklore ... he finds little time for pursuing programming and pulling his oar in QA :) My hope is that my somewhat hyperbolic comments may evoke some response from the many people here on CP I consider mentors, friends, colleagues ... who, I believe, are much more up-to-date than I am. cheers, Bill
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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Hi, Pete, I do not hate WPF ! I'm in awe of what people like you, Josh Smith, Sacha Barber, and others, did/do with it. I have great respect for the excellent facilities WPF has compared to WinForms: orthogonal vector rendering for everything; dependency management, powerful binding, support for animations, property change notifications, etc. I do feel that Win developers got led a merry chase in the whole trauma a la Sinofsky regarding MS waffling on technical support for WPF going forward, killing SilverLight ... I know you know what I am talking about here. imho, the confusion was only intensified by the abortive Win RT thing, and the Modern UI debacle that led to Sinofsky's departure. In addition, the first (current ?) schizoid VS UI for developing in WPF with split window and dysfunctional relationship between XAML, GUI, and "code-first:" imho that turned a lot of people off, at the same time engendering the cult of savants who styled themselves the "WPF Disciples," your good self included :) To wit: the transformation of our own esteemed mentor, Marc Clifton, from early XAML pioneer to recent statements, here, that, now, he hates it. Do you believe these events I mention did not impair the adoption of WPF, and cause companies and devs to lose time and money ? Do you believe that WPF is, now, even considered a prime candidate for new projects in major software houses who are being dragged into mobile+desktop/cross-platform/ web-centric apps willing-or-not ? From my point of view: if all that time and money had been invested into transforming WinForms so it had a vector-based retained mode 2d graphic engine, and all the other advanced goodness of WPF, and made cross platform in the ways that Core and Xamarin are doing now with Win: WinForms would be "on top of the world," and all god's children would have shoes. But, the modal "culture" of software development seems to be cycles of the next shiny thing getting the glory, the development money, the buzz ... meanwhile, back at the ranch Joe and Betty developer often get by using the older tool-sets, performing what I call "dinosaur dentistry" to shimmy their work into awkward symbiosis with the latest. Today, I was reading an update on Xamarin Forms 3.3: [^] ... oh glory, they now have labels and buttons, and images, kind-a working better ! The article's sub-title: "Little Things, Huge Difference." B
BillWoodruff wrote:
considered a prime candidate for new projects in major software houses
I'd be astonished if any major shops are considering anything other than web based UIs. I think WPF has devolved into a mainly corporate tool.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity - RAH I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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kmoorevs wrote:
I try my best to stay away from third-party libraries.
DevExpress (and I'm sure the others) are incredible. You'll never go back to the standard WinForm / WPF controls once you start using them. And besides, you're missing out on all the hair pulling, teeth gnashing complexity of their object models, and the constant googling "how do I do this simple thing?" :laugh:
Latest Article - A Concise Overview of Threads Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
Marc Clifton wrote:
And besides, you're missing out on all the hair pulling, teeth gnashing complexity of their object models
:laugh: I dropped Infragistics for Telerik because of the complexity of the object model - yet another of my brilliant choices (Silverlight being the other one).
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity - RAH I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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Michael Martin wrote:
Have you tried CListCtrl?
It's a good point and we often do that trade-off here when we want to do some list/grid view type of data. The bad thing is that DataGridView makes some things so easy (laziness rules!) like the way you can set the datasource to a dataset and forget about it. Or, well, you can forget about good functionality and nice UI too, but laziness rules!!!. Then you go to use the ListView and you can make it look so nice but it so much work. :confused: X| :| Laziness rules!!! :laugh:
raddevus wrote:
It's a good point and we often do that trade-off here when we want to do some list/grid view type of data. The bad thing is that DataGridView makes some things so easy (laziness rules!) like the way you can set the datasource to a dataset and forget about it. Or, well, you can forget about good functionality and nice UI too, but laziness rules!!!. Then you go to use the ListView and you can make it look so nice but it so much work. :confused: X| :| Laziness rules!!! :laugh:
It was actually an old In-Joke from years ago on CP, I'm sure Marc remembers it and knew I was being facetious. I can't actually rememeber what the story was behind the joke.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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Mmm.. I for one, look forward to that. As for your question, your fear are misplaced. It will be a Windows only functionality using WIndows only feature, such as WPF, UWP and.... DirectX, WinForm, Win32.dll! ;) This is the opposite of the Win8 API. Instead of "here is the new API that you SHOULD be using", we get "here is how you can use ALL the API you like at the same time". BTW we also added a native compiler for .NET and XCopy deployment, are we cool?! :-D ;P
A new .NET Serializer All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar Taking over the world since 1371!
I ported my desktop app from Framework to Core. The native compiler being beta code it ran for a few hours before crashing. Not cool. Currently pursuing C++/CLR mixed code as my use case is to avoid decompilation.
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I ported my desktop app from Framework to Core. The native compiler being beta code it ran for a few hours before crashing. Not cool. Currently pursuing C++/CLR mixed code as my use case is to avoid decompilation.
wow, how did you do that already? :omg: I keep googling about it in the hope of testing it.... :(( At any rate, yeah, the native compiler can be a pain... I think it's why it is so little advertised, they are still working on it... At nay rate fiddle around with your Default.rd.xml [Runtime Directives (rd.xml) Configuration File Reference | Microsoft Docs](https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/framework/net-native/runtime-directives-rd-xml-configuration-file-reference)
A new .NET Serializer All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar Taking over the world since 1371!
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Hi, Pete, I do not hate WPF ! I'm in awe of what people like you, Josh Smith, Sacha Barber, and others, did/do with it. I have great respect for the excellent facilities WPF has compared to WinForms: orthogonal vector rendering for everything; dependency management, powerful binding, support for animations, property change notifications, etc. I do feel that Win developers got led a merry chase in the whole trauma a la Sinofsky regarding MS waffling on technical support for WPF going forward, killing SilverLight ... I know you know what I am talking about here. imho, the confusion was only intensified by the abortive Win RT thing, and the Modern UI debacle that led to Sinofsky's departure. In addition, the first (current ?) schizoid VS UI for developing in WPF with split window and dysfunctional relationship between XAML, GUI, and "code-first:" imho that turned a lot of people off, at the same time engendering the cult of savants who styled themselves the "WPF Disciples," your good self included :) To wit: the transformation of our own esteemed mentor, Marc Clifton, from early XAML pioneer to recent statements, here, that, now, he hates it. Do you believe these events I mention did not impair the adoption of WPF, and cause companies and devs to lose time and money ? Do you believe that WPF is, now, even considered a prime candidate for new projects in major software houses who are being dragged into mobile+desktop/cross-platform/ web-centric apps willing-or-not ? From my point of view: if all that time and money had been invested into transforming WinForms so it had a vector-based retained mode 2d graphic engine, and all the other advanced goodness of WPF, and made cross platform in the ways that Core and Xamarin are doing now with Win: WinForms would be "on top of the world," and all god's children would have shoes. But, the modal "culture" of software development seems to be cycles of the next shiny thing getting the glory, the development money, the buzz ... meanwhile, back at the ranch Joe and Betty developer often get by using the older tool-sets, performing what I call "dinosaur dentistry" to shimmy their work into awkward symbiosis with the latest. Today, I was reading an update on Xamarin Forms 3.3: [^] ... oh glory, they now have labels and buttons, and images, kind-a working better ! The article's sub-title: "Little Things, Huge Difference." B
In tech, you have 2 types of evolutions. The slow paced evolutions that move at a glacial pace and but also effect the entire industry. The fast paced novelty gimmicks mostly used to distract us, so we don't get bored waiting for the glacial shifts to produce results. .NET Core is the glacially slow type. Initially, around 2008 I think(?), it's purpose was to get embedded devices to run C# and compete directly with embedded Java platforms. Shifts in the embedded market (raspberry PI for low-cost and the crushing dominance of Java for anything else) altered those plans over time, and Core was eventually repurposed as a cross platform CLR. After waiting what seemed like an eternity, we eventually got a useable version with the release of 2.0. The upcoming WinForms and WPF support is hype / a pitch designed to increase enterprise adoption rate; it's mostly a distraction. Once the Mono team gets Core running on WASM, we'll probably get an alternative UI stack that will eventually end up dominating the market. Probably HTML based? Maybe XAML? We'll have to wait and see. I personally hope for XAML, but anything XML based is fine really.
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Or Corel, they are damn good at that as well. "Add bugs and Bloat!" - I think that is actually the corporate Mission Statement. Checkout Paintshop Pro 10 (JASC version) vs X9 (Corel version) :sigh:
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640 Never throw anything away, Griff Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
Quote:
Paintshop Pro 10
OMG, the last image editor I liked using. Photoshop's better nowadays, but the for the most part, the UI was legacy shit. Not PSP, use it since version 2.0 I believe :D
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Quote:
Paintshop Pro 10
OMG, the last image editor I liked using. Photoshop's better nowadays, but the for the most part, the UI was legacy shit. Not PSP, use it since version 2.0 I believe :D
It was indeed absolutely brilliant and I clung on to it for years, until it's lack of Aero support made using it for manuals / screenshots a PITA and I had to switch to X8. :sigh:
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640 Never throw anything away, Griff Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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It was indeed absolutely brilliant and I clung on to it for years, until it's lack of Aero support made using it for manuals / screenshots a PITA and I had to switch to X8. :sigh:
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640 Never throw anything away, Griff Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
Kinda makes me want to make a PSP-like image editor on UWP. Oh god, I remembered just now, I registered my (Pirate!) copy of PSP with Jasc. Then, the Jasc spam came in snail mail. The 90's were weird.
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Kinda makes me want to make a PSP-like image editor on UWP. Oh god, I remembered just now, I registered my (Pirate!) copy of PSP with Jasc. Then, the Jasc spam came in snail mail. The 90's were weird.
You registered a pirate copy of something that cost about £10 (if my memory serves correctly)? :omg: Weird times indeed!
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640 Never throw anything away, Griff Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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I've been following with interest the evolution of ,NET Core, and was interested to read the latest from MS in the article cited by Kent yesterday: [^] which included the following:
Quote:
t a recent Visual Studio Live! conference, Microsoft's Beth Massi indicated that .NET Core is definitely the future -- even for those Windows desktop applications -- and it was time for developers to get onboard. Specifically, the message was that future .NET Core versions would support those desktop apps, obviating the earlier advice about which applications should be ported. "As we move forward into the future, with .NET Core 3, we're going to see some more workloads that we're going to be working on here, mainly Windows desktop," Massi said. "We're bringing Windows desktop workloads to .NET Core 3, as well as AI and IoT scenarios. "The big deal here is now that if you're a WinForms or WPF developer you can actually utilize the .NET Core runtime."
Okay, what puzzles me is that I never seem to hear anything about what a developer who creates apps with rich visual interfaces involving complex controls ... does. I assume (wrongly ?) that the quirky set of WinForm controls (wrappers around COM based cores) we've had since the late neolithic cannot be used since they depend on low-level Win API stuff. So, where's the TreeView, the ListView, the DateTimePicker ? What if I need a grid, a useful grid, not something like that abomination called 'DataGridView ? I gotta pony-up mega-bucks to Telerik, SyncFusion, etc. ? If there is a "march" going on here, I hope it's not a "death march," like the WPF, or SilverLight, or "Modern UI" disasters. cheers, old fossil, Bill
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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You registered a pirate copy of something that cost about £10 (if my memory serves correctly)? :omg: Weird times indeed!
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640 Never throw anything away, Griff Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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I was 12, give me a break :P
Even at the age of twelve: You registered a pirate copy of something? :omg:
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640 Never throw anything away, Griff Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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wow, how did you do that already? :omg: I keep googling about it in the hope of testing it.... :(( At any rate, yeah, the native compiler can be a pain... I think it's why it is so little advertised, they are still working on it... At nay rate fiddle around with your Default.rd.xml [Runtime Directives (rd.xml) Configuration File Reference | Microsoft Docs](https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/framework/net-native/runtime-directives-rd-xml-configuration-file-reference)
A new .NET Serializer All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar Taking over the world since 1371!
-
I've been following with interest the evolution of ,NET Core, and was interested to read the latest from MS in the article cited by Kent yesterday: [^] which included the following:
Quote:
t a recent Visual Studio Live! conference, Microsoft's Beth Massi indicated that .NET Core is definitely the future -- even for those Windows desktop applications -- and it was time for developers to get onboard. Specifically, the message was that future .NET Core versions would support those desktop apps, obviating the earlier advice about which applications should be ported. "As we move forward into the future, with .NET Core 3, we're going to see some more workloads that we're going to be working on here, mainly Windows desktop," Massi said. "We're bringing Windows desktop workloads to .NET Core 3, as well as AI and IoT scenarios. "The big deal here is now that if you're a WinForms or WPF developer you can actually utilize the .NET Core runtime."
Okay, what puzzles me is that I never seem to hear anything about what a developer who creates apps with rich visual interfaces involving complex controls ... does. I assume (wrongly ?) that the quirky set of WinForm controls (wrappers around COM based cores) we've had since the late neolithic cannot be used since they depend on low-level Win API stuff. So, where's the TreeView, the ListView, the DateTimePicker ? What if I need a grid, a useful grid, not something like that abomination called 'DataGridView ? I gotta pony-up mega-bucks to Telerik, SyncFusion, etc. ? If there is a "march" going on here, I hope it's not a "death march," like the WPF, or SilverLight, or "Modern UI" disasters. cheers, old fossil, Bill
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
UWPhas been on Dotnet Core sense last fall. The newness isWinFormsandWPF. -
Even at the age of twelve: You registered a pirate copy of something? :omg:
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640 Never throw anything away, Griff Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
"register" and "pirate" were but concepts at that age. Besides, were I was from, piracy was the norm. Hell, my cousins had games life "Flashback", which required the photocopied manual as an anti-piracy feature.
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I've been following with interest the evolution of ,NET Core, and was interested to read the latest from MS in the article cited by Kent yesterday: [^] which included the following:
Quote:
t a recent Visual Studio Live! conference, Microsoft's Beth Massi indicated that .NET Core is definitely the future -- even for those Windows desktop applications -- and it was time for developers to get onboard. Specifically, the message was that future .NET Core versions would support those desktop apps, obviating the earlier advice about which applications should be ported. "As we move forward into the future, with .NET Core 3, we're going to see some more workloads that we're going to be working on here, mainly Windows desktop," Massi said. "We're bringing Windows desktop workloads to .NET Core 3, as well as AI and IoT scenarios. "The big deal here is now that if you're a WinForms or WPF developer you can actually utilize the .NET Core runtime."
Okay, what puzzles me is that I never seem to hear anything about what a developer who creates apps with rich visual interfaces involving complex controls ... does. I assume (wrongly ?) that the quirky set of WinForm controls (wrappers around COM based cores) we've had since the late neolithic cannot be used since they depend on low-level Win API stuff. So, where's the TreeView, the ListView, the DateTimePicker ? What if I need a grid, a useful grid, not something like that abomination called 'DataGridView ? I gotta pony-up mega-bucks to Telerik, SyncFusion, etc. ? If there is a "march" going on here, I hope it's not a "death march," like the WPF, or SilverLight, or "Modern UI" disasters. cheers, old fossil, Bill
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
I found it useful to create my apps in Xamarin Forms. I can make UWP apps as easy as iOS and Android. With a careful division of code, a MacOS C# app can use the libraries. I have also found it easier, in the long run, to have two UI formats, one for phones and one for laptop/tablets. Al I can say is that it works for me. The only missing part for me is that Microsoft is dilly dallying on a XAML designer.
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I've been following with interest the evolution of ,NET Core, and was interested to read the latest from MS in the article cited by Kent yesterday: [^] which included the following:
Quote:
t a recent Visual Studio Live! conference, Microsoft's Beth Massi indicated that .NET Core is definitely the future -- even for those Windows desktop applications -- and it was time for developers to get onboard. Specifically, the message was that future .NET Core versions would support those desktop apps, obviating the earlier advice about which applications should be ported. "As we move forward into the future, with .NET Core 3, we're going to see some more workloads that we're going to be working on here, mainly Windows desktop," Massi said. "We're bringing Windows desktop workloads to .NET Core 3, as well as AI and IoT scenarios. "The big deal here is now that if you're a WinForms or WPF developer you can actually utilize the .NET Core runtime."
Okay, what puzzles me is that I never seem to hear anything about what a developer who creates apps with rich visual interfaces involving complex controls ... does. I assume (wrongly ?) that the quirky set of WinForm controls (wrappers around COM based cores) we've had since the late neolithic cannot be used since they depend on low-level Win API stuff. So, where's the TreeView, the ListView, the DateTimePicker ? What if I need a grid, a useful grid, not something like that abomination called 'DataGridView ? I gotta pony-up mega-bucks to Telerik, SyncFusion, etc. ? If there is a "march" going on here, I hope it's not a "death march," like the WPF, or SilverLight, or "Modern UI" disasters. cheers, old fossil, Bill
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
I don't trust Microsoft's DEC-era architects (except Herb Sutter) and anything they have concocted. Especially software tools or languages that either are dependent on MS or any kind of runtime. I simply don't trust them. Today, I only program in MFC (I never left it) and await eagerly each time a new modern C++ idiom pops off the ISO C++ press. Modules is next in C++20 which should make my code even more compact and efficient and maintainable. VS C++ is an excellent compiler. Why it is free, I'll never know. As far as complex UI controls, I subscribe to BCGSoft's MFC libraries. These guys are the ones that delivered the technology to MS in 2007. I think they are still delivering new features to them which seem to end up in both Office as well as VS apps, although I can't prove it. I fully expect to be able to compile my code on all platforms without lifting a coding finger thanks to their All Platforms etc mantra. If the architects did this, I owe them an apology, but I rather suspect that it had to do with losing in the developer market place more than great insight. Anyway, I never have any anxiety about being scooped by a runtime or the next big technical-debt-filled programming language because I chose to trust ISO's 116 C++ professors around the world. The only group more lost architecturally than MS is Network IT. Ok, the GUI libs cost some money ($800, then $400/yr support), but I think you should pay for quality, and they are not only ever-evolving, but their support team is top notch with 48 hours promised response time. It's great coding huge decentralized apps and not having to worry about programming language or versioning. Again, I am probably the last MFC holdout, but I'm loving it.
