I'm completely disillusioned with hardware manufacturers
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Science would never get done if scientists weren't able to roll up their sleeves and hack something together. The apps are merely a means to an end. This is why things like R and Python are so great. Easy to learn, powerful, readily available, and no C-snobbery to get in the way of your string and duct tape.
cheers Chris Maunder
Yes, give researchers better tools, I've seen the impact of researchers using Python instead of Octave/Matlab: instead of hacking primitive operations and memory, they can focus on the data itself and logic. Just don't let computer researchers around a compiler, god knows what they'll make of it next (Remember C++ evolution....).
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Doh! Chris, you may have chagrined me :) I began thinking about running macOS in a Windows VM (to save money). This may have led me to box in my thinking. I hate it when that happens. Running Windows in a Mac VM, on a notebook, might work for me. It would buy me some portability and I'd get the Windows licenses for free with VS Pro. Less than ideal, from a cost perspective, but more useful than a Mac Mini, if I can get away with it. Dang! Now I have to Google VM options for Mac. Any suggestions/preferences for best VM solutions on Mac (assuming this is an option)? Probably, I should start a new topic. EDIT: I would have given you two votes up for the knock on the noggin, but was limited to one :) SECOND EDIT: Nope, doesn't make sense for me. I can buy a recent Mac Mini AND a Windows notebook for the about the same price as a recent MacBook. Seemed like a good idea at first, but the economics simply don't make sense.
I've been running various Windows and Linux OSs in VirtualBox on my MBP since it was new in 2010.
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Firstly, If a keyboard and mouse is the pinnacle of human-computer interaction then I'm quitting this industry now. The keyboard and mouse are a stop-gap measure - a long term stop-gap measure - but one that needs to be replaced. Secondly, I'm not suggesting that our current input methods will go. We still need keyboards and mice and big screens. The industry has been moving (for years) towards replacing desktops with laptops, and now laptops with tablets (surface, iPad Pro), and then it'll be foldable phones replacing tablets (eg the phones in Westworld[^]). All of these will, I assume, still allow us to connect to more spacious input and output devices.
cheers Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote:
Firstly, If a keyboard and mouse is the pinnacle of human-computer interaction then I'm quitting this industry now. The keyboard and mouse are a stop-gap measure - a long term stop-gap measure - but one that needs to be replaced.
With what? Audible interfaces? It's already been shown, very, very clearly that no-one wants to work in an office/library/bar/any other place by talking out loud to their computer (although it's quite usual for me to swear at mine, no matter where I am). Dancing around, waving your arms? See "Audible interfaces", above, and add that it takes considerably less effort and time to type precise wording than to perform it in sign language. Touch screens with fingers? Not even remotely useful for a large number of tasks -- Hell, even selecting text on a phone/tablet can be a major PITA; God knows how much fun it would be to draw diagrams, or do anything that needs fine control. Touch screens with probes? Sure, let's use an on-screen keyboard with a probe, to type words. It's only, like 99 times slower than using a real keyboard. Cranial implants? Yeah, right. If you think I'm willing to allow MS, Google, Apple, or any of the open-source loonies direct access to my mind, you've got another think coming. And the Thought Police would become a reality in under a decade. Things wot follow yer eyes and expression? Yeah, it might be good for shooting dirty commies in a jet fighter, but let's see you write a report, using that. Here's a reasonably pertinet quote from Dickens: "The whole difference between construction and creation is exactly this: that a thing constructed can only be loved after it is constructed; but a thing created is loved before it exists." That, along with 80-odd per cent of the best sentences in literature can only be written by hand or with a physical keyboard. Most of what people enter into computers is words (commands don't count -- unless they're spoken out loud, in which case they're a PITA to everyone nearby). To enter words, you need to do two things: 0: Put the caret in the place where the words have to go. 1: Enter the words. Good luck finding that something that will work better than the near-perfect "stop-gap measure" we have now. I'm a friggin' miracle worker, when it comes to this kind of innovation, and I can't think of a damned thing that would be more efficient/productive/acceptable.
I wanna be a eun
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Chris Maunder wrote:
We'll move over to using tablets or even phones as our primary device and laptops will go the way of desktop PCs.
I'm not sure. I've tried writing code on a tablet - the Nexus 7 and the WookieTab - and it's been a miserable experience, all because of the keyboard. You think the Macbook Pro KB is bad? Try it on tablet! Particularly if you are a touch (or even a fast multi finger) typist it's a major exercise in frustration. And while predictive input on Android is great for letters, posts, SMS, and email it elephants your code like nobody's business. Just the auto capitalisation after a "." is enough to drive you to the arms of a "proper keyboard" ... I don't think we'll move to tablet / phone until we find a better input method - and the first person to suggest "voice input" should be defenestrated...
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640 Never throw anything away, Griff Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
Actually, the tablet concept is great: just use any Bluetooth keyboard you want. I get along great with this. I only use the onscreen keyboard in meetings, traveling in some type of vehicle, etc. If I am planted in a singular location to do work, I've got a Bluetooth keyboard I like.
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Maybe...not sure. Though, in case I ever decide to throw it onto their App Store, I don't think I want to risk the licensing cops coming after me :) From what I understand, you can pick up a used Mac cheap enough...simply don't want to go through the hassle for a single-purpose (for me) device. Originally, I hoped I could purchase a legit macOS license and run it in a VM...oh well, wishful thinking. I guess I've been spoiled by Android. Simply fire up an emulator for free or purchase a device that is almost free. Sometimes I wonder if Apple is actively discouraging independent developers.
Eric Lynch wrote:
I guess I've been spoiled by Android. Simply fire up an emulator for free or purchase a device that is almost free.
You get what you pay for.
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Chris Maunder wrote:
Firstly, If a keyboard and mouse is the pinnacle of human-computer interaction then I'm quitting this industry now. The keyboard and mouse are a stop-gap measure - a long term stop-gap measure - but one that needs to be replaced.
With what? Audible interfaces? It's already been shown, very, very clearly that no-one wants to work in an office/library/bar/any other place by talking out loud to their computer (although it's quite usual for me to swear at mine, no matter where I am). Dancing around, waving your arms? See "Audible interfaces", above, and add that it takes considerably less effort and time to type precise wording than to perform it in sign language. Touch screens with fingers? Not even remotely useful for a large number of tasks -- Hell, even selecting text on a phone/tablet can be a major PITA; God knows how much fun it would be to draw diagrams, or do anything that needs fine control. Touch screens with probes? Sure, let's use an on-screen keyboard with a probe, to type words. It's only, like 99 times slower than using a real keyboard. Cranial implants? Yeah, right. If you think I'm willing to allow MS, Google, Apple, or any of the open-source loonies direct access to my mind, you've got another think coming. And the Thought Police would become a reality in under a decade. Things wot follow yer eyes and expression? Yeah, it might be good for shooting dirty commies in a jet fighter, but let's see you write a report, using that. Here's a reasonably pertinet quote from Dickens: "The whole difference between construction and creation is exactly this: that a thing constructed can only be loved after it is constructed; but a thing created is loved before it exists." That, along with 80-odd per cent of the best sentences in literature can only be written by hand or with a physical keyboard. Most of what people enter into computers is words (commands don't count -- unless they're spoken out loud, in which case they're a PITA to everyone nearby). To enter words, you need to do two things: 0: Put the caret in the place where the words have to go. 1: Enter the words. Good luck finding that something that will work better than the near-perfect "stop-gap measure" we have now. I'm a friggin' miracle worker, when it comes to this kind of innovation, and I can't think of a damned thing that would be more efficient/productive/acceptable.
I wanna be a eun
I suspect the answer may be a combination of the above, or even more likely, something not yet thought of; however, I agree with Chris: keyboard and mouse WILL be replaced with something better at some point. An attitude of "nothing can be any better" is why we still have QWERTY (which is hardly near-perfect). For a mind-boggling experience, stop thinking of text on a page. Start thinking of manipulating three-dimensional objects in space with body gestures and perhaps speech interaction with much more advanced AIs than Google's Assistant. We program using Objects, but still represent those programmatic constructs with text on a page. Odd that, don't you think?
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I suspect the answer may be a combination of the above, or even more likely, something not yet thought of; however, I agree with Chris: keyboard and mouse WILL be replaced with something better at some point. An attitude of "nothing can be any better" is why we still have QWERTY (which is hardly near-perfect). For a mind-boggling experience, stop thinking of text on a page. Start thinking of manipulating three-dimensional objects in space with body gestures and perhaps speech interaction with much more advanced AIs than Google's Assistant. We program using Objects, but still represent those programmatic constructs with text on a page. Odd that, don't you think?
Greg Lovekamp wrote:
For a mind-boggling experience, stop thinking of text on a page. Start thinking of manipulating three-dimensional objects in space with body gestures and perhaps speech interaction with much more advanced AIs than Google's Assistant.
But dancing around in front of sensors is a hideously awful way to communicate information. Try replacing writing with gesticulations and body movements to communicate the equivalent of a thousand word essay -- no spoken or written words allowed. ... And a sprained ankle is no excuse for handing in your assignment late.
Greg Lovekamp wrote:
We program using Objects, but still represent those programmatic constructs with text on a page. Odd that, don't you think?
IMO, it's not at all odd. Abstract communication of thoughts and ideas between humans has evolved over millennia, but it still boils down to the basics that were always there: - Use noises to communicate your thoughts and ideas to those nearby. - Use glyphs and markings to communicate your thoughts and ideas to those who can't hear your noises. Short of some kind of telepathy (which would be a nightmare for everyone, regarding privacy, security, and outright annoyance), I cannot see any other effective abstraction that could replace those basics -- and I especially cannot think of anything new that would communicate thoughts and ideas more efficiently. So, unless your keyboard and mouse are broken, they ain't broke, and it's unlikely that they will be leaving us any time soon -- if ever.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Greg Lovekamp wrote:
For a mind-boggling experience, stop thinking of text on a page. Start thinking of manipulating three-dimensional objects in space with body gestures and perhaps speech interaction with much more advanced AIs than Google's Assistant.
But dancing around in front of sensors is a hideously awful way to communicate information. Try replacing writing with gesticulations and body movements to communicate the equivalent of a thousand word essay -- no spoken or written words allowed. ... And a sprained ankle is no excuse for handing in your assignment late.
Greg Lovekamp wrote:
We program using Objects, but still represent those programmatic constructs with text on a page. Odd that, don't you think?
IMO, it's not at all odd. Abstract communication of thoughts and ideas between humans has evolved over millennia, but it still boils down to the basics that were always there: - Use noises to communicate your thoughts and ideas to those nearby. - Use glyphs and markings to communicate your thoughts and ideas to those who can't hear your noises. Short of some kind of telepathy (which would be a nightmare for everyone, regarding privacy, security, and outright annoyance), I cannot see any other effective abstraction that could replace those basics -- and I especially cannot think of anything new that would communicate thoughts and ideas more efficiently. So, unless your keyboard and mouse are broken, they ain't broke, and it's unlikely that they will be leaving us any time soon -- if ever.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark_Wallace wrote:
dancing around in front of sensors is a hideously awful way to communicate information
Interesting. So, you don't use gestures of your hands when you talk to others? In a classroom, have your instructors always stood stiff as a board? Movement and gesticulation are EXTREMELY natural, effective, and efficient to assist in communication.
Mark_Wallace wrote:
I especially cannot think of anything new that would communicate thoughts and ideas more efficiently
Certainly, many people share those views, but that why somebody, somewhere else gets his name in the history books of the future.
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Mark_Wallace wrote:
dancing around in front of sensors is a hideously awful way to communicate information
Interesting. So, you don't use gestures of your hands when you talk to others? In a classroom, have your instructors always stood stiff as a board? Movement and gesticulation are EXTREMELY natural, effective, and efficient to assist in communication.
Mark_Wallace wrote:
I especially cannot think of anything new that would communicate thoughts and ideas more efficiently
Certainly, many people share those views, but that why somebody, somewhere else gets his name in the history books of the future.
Greg Lovekamp wrote:
So, you don't use gestures of your hands when you talk to others? In a classroom, have your instructors always stood stiff as a board? Movement and gesticulation are EXTREMELY natural, effective, and efficient to assist in communication.
Sure, but the key word there is "assist"; using it as a replacement for verbal communication requires learning a whole new abstract language -- and gesticulation is only useful for verbal communication, anyway. It's replaced by the rules of grammar and punctuation, in writing. Granted, if you have hearing problems, or wish to communicate with people with hearing problems, then making the effort to learn sign language is well worth the effort -- just as learning Patagonian to communicate with Patagonians is worth the effort -- but who would want to learn a sign language just to communicate with a computer? I'd posit that few who own a keyboard and a mouse would. Can you imagine how this board would be, for example, if it weren't presented with written words, but instead as some kind of video thing, to allow gesticulation to be used instead of written words? For one thing: unless some kind of massive animated-avatar system were implemented, you could forget all about privacy and anonymity (which are not just for use by criminals and scammers, but are decent people's main defense against criminals and scammers on the Internet). The core problem is that any new process (not just in this case, but everywhere) has to be demonstrably more efficient and/or demonstrably more effective than a current process, or it should not be implemented, and it would be pretty damned hard to demonstrate such improvements over typed text. IMO, the only way to improve on the typed-text process is by using words better and making good use of the rules of grammar and punctuation. Adding some kind of graphical element to convey gesticulation would be monumentally inefficient (and would probably contribute to the advent of the idiocracy -- communication by emoji? Bleah!)
Greg Lovekamp wrote:
Certainly, many people share those views, but that why somebody, somewhere else gets his name in the history books of the future.
Not being a fan of RSI, this is a case where I would sincerely love to be proven wrong, but I'm pretty sure that that ain't gonna happen. The process we have works extremely efficiently and effectivel
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Greg Lovekamp wrote:
So, you don't use gestures of your hands when you talk to others? In a classroom, have your instructors always stood stiff as a board? Movement and gesticulation are EXTREMELY natural, effective, and efficient to assist in communication.
Sure, but the key word there is "assist"; using it as a replacement for verbal communication requires learning a whole new abstract language -- and gesticulation is only useful for verbal communication, anyway. It's replaced by the rules of grammar and punctuation, in writing. Granted, if you have hearing problems, or wish to communicate with people with hearing problems, then making the effort to learn sign language is well worth the effort -- just as learning Patagonian to communicate with Patagonians is worth the effort -- but who would want to learn a sign language just to communicate with a computer? I'd posit that few who own a keyboard and a mouse would. Can you imagine how this board would be, for example, if it weren't presented with written words, but instead as some kind of video thing, to allow gesticulation to be used instead of written words? For one thing: unless some kind of massive animated-avatar system were implemented, you could forget all about privacy and anonymity (which are not just for use by criminals and scammers, but are decent people's main defense against criminals and scammers on the Internet). The core problem is that any new process (not just in this case, but everywhere) has to be demonstrably more efficient and/or demonstrably more effective than a current process, or it should not be implemented, and it would be pretty damned hard to demonstrate such improvements over typed text. IMO, the only way to improve on the typed-text process is by using words better and making good use of the rules of grammar and punctuation. Adding some kind of graphical element to convey gesticulation would be monumentally inefficient (and would probably contribute to the advent of the idiocracy -- communication by emoji? Bleah!)
Greg Lovekamp wrote:
Certainly, many people share those views, but that why somebody, somewhere else gets his name in the history books of the future.
Not being a fan of RSI, this is a case where I would sincerely love to be proven wrong, but I'm pretty sure that that ain't gonna happen. The process we have works extremely efficiently and effectivel
Mark_Wallace wrote:
Can you imagine how this board would be, for example
Kind of like YouTube, because a picture is worth a thousand words.
Mark_Wallace wrote:
you could forget all about privacy and anonymity
Most younger people already have, and don't miss it much. We can debate whether that is wise or not, but it seems a foregone conclusion.
Mark_Wallace wrote:
it would be pretty damned hard to demonstrate such improvements over typed text
Because in our society, books are flying off the shelves and nobody watches movies or TV? Virtually, no successful education utilizes text alone; success requires interaction. My contention has been that future programming will become more interactive and less textual driven. As we move forward, programming is going to become less scripting commands that the machine obeys and more training the machine to perform actions for a given set of reasons.
Mark_Wallace wrote:
Finding a replacement process for something so efficient and effective would not be a trivial task
Many managers would contend that computer programming is neither efficient nor effective; nonetheless, I will just state that a replacement may not be trivial, but it is inevitable. --- Overall, your scope is too limited: you think in terms of sign language as gesticulation. Nodding one's head, swinging a fist, shrugging, and flipping the bird; these are all commonly (though perhaps not universally) understood. Before the iPhone, "pinch to zoom" was an uncommon computer interaction; now, it is ubiquitous. As time moves forward, other gestures will become second nature. My contention is that "developers" of the future won't be limited to sitting at a keyboard whacking away to create instructions for the computer to follow. AI research is going to make computers more like cooperative partners that must be trained and coached to do what is needed in an autonomous manner. We are humans, and we like to interact with other humans, so we make our machines more like humans. Again, I'm not going to debate whether that is good or bad; it is simply human nature, and that is where the future will take us.
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Mark_Wallace wrote:
Can you imagine how this board would be, for example
Kind of like YouTube, because a picture is worth a thousand words.
Mark_Wallace wrote:
you could forget all about privacy and anonymity
Most younger people already have, and don't miss it much. We can debate whether that is wise or not, but it seems a foregone conclusion.
Mark_Wallace wrote:
it would be pretty damned hard to demonstrate such improvements over typed text
Because in our society, books are flying off the shelves and nobody watches movies or TV? Virtually, no successful education utilizes text alone; success requires interaction. My contention has been that future programming will become more interactive and less textual driven. As we move forward, programming is going to become less scripting commands that the machine obeys and more training the machine to perform actions for a given set of reasons.
Mark_Wallace wrote:
Finding a replacement process for something so efficient and effective would not be a trivial task
Many managers would contend that computer programming is neither efficient nor effective; nonetheless, I will just state that a replacement may not be trivial, but it is inevitable. --- Overall, your scope is too limited: you think in terms of sign language as gesticulation. Nodding one's head, swinging a fist, shrugging, and flipping the bird; these are all commonly (though perhaps not universally) understood. Before the iPhone, "pinch to zoom" was an uncommon computer interaction; now, it is ubiquitous. As time moves forward, other gestures will become second nature. My contention is that "developers" of the future won't be limited to sitting at a keyboard whacking away to create instructions for the computer to follow. AI research is going to make computers more like cooperative partners that must be trained and coached to do what is needed in an autonomous manner. We are humans, and we like to interact with other humans, so we make our machines more like humans. Again, I'm not going to debate whether that is good or bad; it is simply human nature, and that is where the future will take us.
No disrespect for the OP, but this is just the same anti-UI-advancement crap we hear from Linux people all the time, since the 1990's. I still remember having to idiots drone on on how "this gui thing is just a fad, real men using 80 char terminals". Despite what the OP is trying to convey, there's a big, big ocean between banging text on VIM like a caveman, or waggling your WiiMote like a useless idiot. A mouse, for starters, would help very much. I would ask for touch support, but since for the fanatics, even using a mouse is heresy tantamount to using closed-source!
