No Initiative. :(
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I've been trying for three months to get my new co-workers excited about doing new development in the form of a rewrite of our web app suite (currently ASP.Net with jquery) to ASP.NET MVC5. All I've gotten in return is the equivalent of, "Great! But it will be a lot of work, so lets not". Yesterday, I mentioned to the PM that I was working on a rewrite at home because we don't have the time/desire to do it at work, and you'd think I was trying to hack the freakin Pentagon. I'm so tired of government contract work... There is no motivation to excel, and initiative is stomped out before it gains a foothold in peiople's minds.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013I work now at a huge company. It's one of the biggest private companies in the nation. I fully expected a rather large and ponderous bunch of managers who rarely went out on a limb. The truth is quite the opposite. They embrace change when there is a strong likely of benefit from it. I talked them into a year+ long development project in a radically new direction and they eagerly jumped on it. They're sending me to a conference next month about it. The curious thing is the company is very antiquated about some things on a philosophical basis. For example, all purchase orders must be submitted in paper. None of this new-fangled electronic stuff for POs. So a guy made a spreadsheet and submitting a PO now (for us) is e-mailing the spreadsheet to the appropriate person and printing it out for the piece of paper. The PO then has to be hand-entered into "the system" which is an old AS400 program with a console interface. They refuse to have a windows interface for it. That part isn't exactly philosophical - it's the result of an obstructionist curmudgeon who is the VP of IT. Neither of my bosses can stand him. Incidentally, that's how short the chain of command is - I have a direct boss, there is a division manager, and he answers to one of the company owners.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
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den2k88 wrote:
THE TEAM is a lie.
Especially when THE TEAM actually is a couple of jerks who happen to sit in the same room and only accidentally open the same project at the same time.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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Been there, done that. I worked for government contractors for 10 years and got tired of finally getting to develop something unique and fun just to have it shelved in the end due to politics. Finally, I landed a really good job with a commercial company. The development isn't cutting edge, but at least it will get used.
"When you are dead, you won't even know that you are dead. It's a pain only felt by others; same thing when you are stupid." Ignorant - An individual without knowledge, but is willing to learn. Stupid - An individual without knowledge and is incapable of learning. Idiot - An individual without knowledge and allows social media to do the thinking for them.
seen the opposite, briefly worked with a company that regularly scored outsourced govt jobs, couple of projects I saw happen during my time (I was on neither but saw it coming)... keeping it short: both times the company produced in highly technical terms: a complete and utter POS, everyone knew it. (they got a steaming pile of broiled cat turds garnished with dog vomit... but because no project this 'govt' has initiated has ever failed the respective depts had no choice but to eat it and never stop smiling about it.)
Message Signature (Click to edit ->)
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What I find ironic is that while everybody agrees that a redsesign/rewrite would be a good thing, they don't want to commit to it, and eventually, the software becomes so outdated and im[possible to maintain that it goes "EOL", and everybody blames the programmers for not "taking the initiative to do a rewrite (that management refused to allow in the first place.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 20131.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
everybody agrees
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
they don't want to commit to it,
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
software becomes so outdated
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
everybody blames the programmers
When you put those into a list, it sounds like : A BRAND NEW SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT METHODOLOGY!!!! All we need now...is a CATCHY NAME! How about THe Non-Dev Agreement Cycle!?! Nice acronym too: N-DAC (pronounced in-dack). Perfect!!! :laugh: Everyone (who is important) will love this because it consists of a Software Dev Blame Cycle. Write it up and get rich. All you need now is a self-important book on the topic. :rolleyes:
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I took some screen shots of the current app for layout reference and menu contents, but that's all. My new version has four user-selectable "themes" (selection is stored in the database): 0) Dark with some layout changes 1) Steel/slate blue with the same layout changes (the Air Force likes blue stuff) 2) Lite using the same colors as the original layout, but with same element layout changes as in the dark theme 3) The original layout with no changes - looks almost identical to the original site (has some spacing differences associated with using bootstrap/telerik that I'm going to try to resolve). This only required a couple of different partial views. The layout changes mentioned above include relocation of some of the elements to reclaim vertical screen space, and remove unnecessary text from the screen during normal use. The site will also be mobile aware, but since our minimum width is 1024px (because iPad, and we won't be supporting phone screen sizes), I'm not sure if that's a real selling point. I also have a second project that combines all of the apps in the suite into a single app, and uses areas for segregation of app-specific concerns. This will reduce the overall footprint on the server (because there will be only one copy of things like the Telerik library), and should make deployment easier besides. It also has the same theming stuff in it. I'm pretty close to giving a demonstration, but now I don't know if it's even going to be worth my time. And that's a cryin' f*ckin' shame. The contract does not specify the stack we use. Yes, I'm the lead, and I was told I could redesign it if I felt the need. I feel the need. The main problem is that I feel like the rest of the apps have to come along for the ride, if for no other reason than to have everything look/act the same. THAT is the part that's going to be the hard sell.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
The layout changes mentioned above include relocation of some of the elements to reclaim vertical screen space, and remove unnecessary text from the screen during normal use. The site will also be mobile aware, but since our minimum width is 1024px (because iPad, and we won't be supporting phone screen sizes), I'm not sure if that's a real selling point.
I feel your pain. Have had to leave screens in terrible shape because one of the users refused to move out of 800x600 mode. Once he retired we were able to reorganize the layout and accommodate modern screen resolutions. It was an Army project too. We had to keep the field order the same because the operators were keyboard wizards and had the tabbing memorized.
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I've been trying for three months to get my new co-workers excited about doing new development in the form of a rewrite of our web app suite (currently ASP.Net with jquery) to ASP.NET MVC5. All I've gotten in return is the equivalent of, "Great! But it will be a lot of work, so lets not". Yesterday, I mentioned to the PM that I was working on a rewrite at home because we don't have the time/desire to do it at work, and you'd think I was trying to hack the freakin Pentagon. I'm so tired of government contract work... There is no motivation to excel, and initiative is stomped out before it gains a foothold in peiople's minds.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013If it works why fix whats not broken, you could maybe change the front end a bit and add some bootstrap...and freshen it and claim that it was lot of work rather than go and fix all the plumbing and discovery all the leaks !!!!
Caveat Emptor. "Progress doesn't come from early risers – progress is made by lazy men looking for easier ways to do things." Lazarus Long
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I've been trying for three months to get my new co-workers excited about doing new development in the form of a rewrite of our web app suite (currently ASP.Net with jquery) to ASP.NET MVC5. All I've gotten in return is the equivalent of, "Great! But it will be a lot of work, so lets not". Yesterday, I mentioned to the PM that I was working on a rewrite at home because we don't have the time/desire to do it at work, and you'd think I was trying to hack the freakin Pentagon. I'm so tired of government contract work... There is no motivation to excel, and initiative is stomped out before it gains a foothold in peiople's minds.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013It's not just government. I used to work for a multi-national US corporation. Every time (without exception) that I suggested improvements/changes/different approach etc., to people above or other departments, I received the standard "we'll take that under advisement" response. So, I stopped making suggestions. That corporation was later sold (and the buyer also later sold) and is now subsumed into another corporation. Most of the people I worked with were laid off not too long after me.
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I've been trying for three months to get my new co-workers excited about doing new development in the form of a rewrite of our web app suite (currently ASP.Net with jquery) to ASP.NET MVC5. All I've gotten in return is the equivalent of, "Great! But it will be a lot of work, so lets not". Yesterday, I mentioned to the PM that I was working on a rewrite at home because we don't have the time/desire to do it at work, and you'd think I was trying to hack the freakin Pentagon. I'm so tired of government contract work... There is no motivation to excel, and initiative is stomped out before it gains a foothold in peiople's minds.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013There are different ways of going about it - one of them known as the Mikado method where you make changes gradually without breaking the current codebase and as you will be adding unit tests too that's a sales pitch if ever there was one(a pretty pathetic one I admit). It may be easier to sell that idea to management than a complete system rewrite.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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I've been trying for three months to get my new co-workers excited about doing new development in the form of a rewrite of our web app suite (currently ASP.Net with jquery) to ASP.NET MVC5. All I've gotten in return is the equivalent of, "Great! But it will be a lot of work, so lets not". Yesterday, I mentioned to the PM that I was working on a rewrite at home because we don't have the time/desire to do it at work, and you'd think I was trying to hack the freakin Pentagon. I'm so tired of government contract work... There is no motivation to excel, and initiative is stomped out before it gains a foothold in peiople's minds.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013As a former federal employee (not a contractor) and now in the private sector, I can assure you the same crap is well distributed to both locals. At our DOE facility, some of us kept a nice skunk-works going - they even patented the concept and (and proof of concept, too). Others just collected their checks. It's no different where I am now - a couple of us like doing "great works" and making things before they're needed. Others wouldn't do their job until not doing it makes them look bad. For some reason I need to add 'they wouldn't give you the time of day unless you shoved a clock up their ass.". Lambasting government employees is some kind of cultural norm - a generally accepted target and constant victims of political screwage. Who you're with and how it works out? The luck of the draw. I had, log ago, coveted a job at Bell Labs - but here I am, instead.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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I've been trying for three months to get my new co-workers excited about doing new development in the form of a rewrite of our web app suite (currently ASP.Net with jquery) to ASP.NET MVC5. All I've gotten in return is the equivalent of, "Great! But it will be a lot of work, so lets not". Yesterday, I mentioned to the PM that I was working on a rewrite at home because we don't have the time/desire to do it at work, and you'd think I was trying to hack the freakin Pentagon. I'm so tired of government contract work... There is no motivation to excel, and initiative is stomped out before it gains a foothold in peiople's minds.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013They may get excited if you offer to rewrite it with ReactJS for front-end and something like Node for backend :-)
Nish Nishant Consultant Software Architect Ganymede Software Solutions LLC www.ganymedesoftwaresolutions.com
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I work now at a huge company. It's one of the biggest private companies in the nation. I fully expected a rather large and ponderous bunch of managers who rarely went out on a limb. The truth is quite the opposite. They embrace change when there is a strong likely of benefit from it. I talked them into a year+ long development project in a radically new direction and they eagerly jumped on it. They're sending me to a conference next month about it. The curious thing is the company is very antiquated about some things on a philosophical basis. For example, all purchase orders must be submitted in paper. None of this new-fangled electronic stuff for POs. So a guy made a spreadsheet and submitting a PO now (for us) is e-mailing the spreadsheet to the appropriate person and printing it out for the piece of paper. The PO then has to be hand-entered into "the system" which is an old AS400 program with a console interface. They refuse to have a windows interface for it. That part isn't exactly philosophical - it's the result of an obstructionist curmudgeon who is the VP of IT. Neither of my bosses can stand him. Incidentally, that's how short the chain of command is - I have a direct boss, there is a division manager, and he answers to one of the company owners.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
Rick York wrote:
Incidentally, that's how short the chain of command is - I have a direct boss, there is a division manager, and he answers to one of the company owners.
That's got a big something to do with how things are for you.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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world peace isn't practical, but web site modernization is. :)
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
I work now at a huge company. It's one of the biggest private companies in the nation. I fully expected a rather large and ponderous bunch of managers who rarely went out on a limb. The truth is quite the opposite. They embrace change when there is a strong likely of benefit from it. I talked them into a year+ long development project in a radically new direction and they eagerly jumped on it. They're sending me to a conference next month about it. The curious thing is the company is very antiquated about some things on a philosophical basis. For example, all purchase orders must be submitted in paper. None of this new-fangled electronic stuff for POs. So a guy made a spreadsheet and submitting a PO now (for us) is e-mailing the spreadsheet to the appropriate person and printing it out for the piece of paper. The PO then has to be hand-entered into "the system" which is an old AS400 program with a console interface. They refuse to have a windows interface for it. That part isn't exactly philosophical - it's the result of an obstructionist curmudgeon who is the VP of IT. Neither of my bosses can stand him. Incidentally, that's how short the chain of command is - I have a direct boss, there is a division manager, and he answers to one of the company owners.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
On the other hand, I had to reverse a pile of Purchase Orders that were generated by the automated Purchasing System because the noobish Finance "Manager" was doing some "what if I do this... ". And this system could purchase "fast".
"(I) am amazed to see myself here rather than there ... now rather than then". ― Blaise Pascal
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I've been trying for three months to get my new co-workers excited about doing new development in the form of a rewrite of our web app suite (currently ASP.Net with jquery) to ASP.NET MVC5. All I've gotten in return is the equivalent of, "Great! But it will be a lot of work, so lets not". Yesterday, I mentioned to the PM that I was working on a rewrite at home because we don't have the time/desire to do it at work, and you'd think I was trying to hack the freakin Pentagon. I'm so tired of government contract work... There is no motivation to excel, and initiative is stomped out before it gains a foothold in peiople's minds.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013Sorry, they are right. A rewrite to MVC5 is a complete waste of time. The .NET Framework will be supported - and even receive some development - over the next 5-10 years, but the message is clear: It is at the end of the road. The requirement for backwards compatibility turned it into a beast where changes are too costly (basically the exact same problem making you want to rewrite your app). All new development from Microsoft is focusing on .NET Core. While not as clean as I would hoped (ArrayList ported… really Microsoft?), there is a lot to like - so while it will be a somewhat painful migration for some of our legacy code, I can't say I would not have made the same move if it was me in control of the .NET landscape.
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I'm not changing things in the actual code base. I'm simply trying to come up with a MVC version of the apps. Nothign special or more ground-breaking than reloacting some of the elements to clean up the 90's era design.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
Sorry, they are right. A rewrite to MVC5 is a complete waste of time. The .NET Framework will be supported - and even receive some development - over the next 5-10 years, but the message is clear: It is at the end of the road. The requirement for backwards compatibility turned it into a beast where changes are too costly (basically the exact same problem making you want to rewrite your app). All new development from Microsoft is focusing on .NET Core. While not as clean as I would hoped (ArrayList ported… really Microsoft?), there is a lot to like - so while it will be a somewhat painful migration for some of our legacy code, I can't say I would not have made the same move if it was me in control of the .NET landscape.
Core presents some additional iis concerns for us, and today, I consider it just half-baked. Besides that, we can't use anything newer than VS2015 until VS2017 is put on the approved software list. I started this journey with core, and had to back away.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
Been there, done that. I worked for government contractors for 10 years and got tired of finally getting to develop something unique and fun just to have it shelved in the end due to politics. Finally, I landed a really good job with a commercial company. The development isn't cutting edge, but at least it will get used.
"When you are dead, you won't even know that you are dead. It's a pain only felt by others; same thing when you are stupid." Ignorant - An individual without knowledge, but is willing to learn. Stupid - An individual without knowledge and is incapable of learning. Idiot - An individual without knowledge and allows social media to do the thinking for them.
For my first many years at my current employer, one of the owners who is quite bright had me produce a number of application. Also, the COO. And others. They're so old I'm beginning to forget that they exist - but that's where they sit - unused and gathering dust (if that can be done inside a HDD). Not to say I didn't learn anything. Each was an adventure. The sad reality is that the same people sort of people are to be found everywhere. If some sort of environment could be found to attract them (in particular), it would be a worthwhile investment to set the place up and remove them from the actual work force.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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I've been trying for three months to get my new co-workers excited about doing new development in the form of a rewrite of our web app suite (currently ASP.Net with jquery) to ASP.NET MVC5. All I've gotten in return is the equivalent of, "Great! But it will be a lot of work, so lets not". Yesterday, I mentioned to the PM that I was working on a rewrite at home because we don't have the time/desire to do it at work, and you'd think I was trying to hack the freakin Pentagon. I'm so tired of government contract work... There is no motivation to excel, and initiative is stomped out before it gains a foothold in peiople's minds.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013As others have said, it's not just government. This contractor at the place I'm currently working sent out an email a couple of weeks ago how he'd found a "u-tube" video (yes, that's the term which was used) which showed how to "create an MVC application without using linq". Because actually learning any new technologies is hard, and not worth it. Sigh. While I certainly agree that rushing down the path of "use new thing just because" is bad as well, I saw this email and my first thought was, "ok, but why would you?" Trying to drag them kicking and screaming into the early part of this century...
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I've been trying for three months to get my new co-workers excited about doing new development in the form of a rewrite of our web app suite (currently ASP.Net with jquery) to ASP.NET MVC5. All I've gotten in return is the equivalent of, "Great! But it will be a lot of work, so lets not". Yesterday, I mentioned to the PM that I was working on a rewrite at home because we don't have the time/desire to do it at work, and you'd think I was trying to hack the freakin Pentagon. I'm so tired of government contract work... There is no motivation to excel, and initiative is stomped out before it gains a foothold in peiople's minds.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013John, Newer isn't Better, it's just different. And full of bugs at first. Try starting and running your own company and develop you own product sometimes. That should give you a whole new attitude adjustment. As someone who has been there, I know. Also don't forget the User interface. Every change you make to it, requires re-training on the part of your users. The PM should have explained this to you.
Newer isn't Better, it's just different.
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As others have said, it's not just government. This contractor at the place I'm currently working sent out an email a couple of weeks ago how he'd found a "u-tube" video (yes, that's the term which was used) which showed how to "create an MVC application without using linq". Because actually learning any new technologies is hard, and not worth it. Sigh. While I certainly agree that rushing down the path of "use new thing just because" is bad as well, I saw this email and my first thought was, "ok, but why would you?" Trying to drag them kicking and screaming into the early part of this century...
I've been doing this for 40 years. I know it's not just government contracts.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
