The Concept of the human Soul is a religious concept, which has no basis in fact, and does not exist
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You mean this? [Office Space - Printer Scene (UNCENSORED) - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9wsjroVlu8) :)
Not, this! Red Dwarf - Silicon Heaven - YouTube[^]
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Well Richard, Did you ever read the books by Richard Dawkins, in particlar "The Blind Watchmaker". Regards,
Bram van Kampen
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Noope This is an extremely good and favourable look on life. At least I have not to be afraid anymore of the hell and damnation promised by our pastors and parents. It is a great relief to know that they were all just spinning abject nonsense at the time. Gods simply do not exist.
Bram van Kampen
Bram van Kampen wrote:
At least I have not to be afraid anymore of the hell and damnation promised by our pastors and parents.
Well there's your problem. You weren't taught truth. I can see why you are cynical.
Bram van Kampen wrote:
Gods simply do not exist.
I can tell you that He does.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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Bram van Kampen wrote:
At least I have not to be afraid anymore of the hell and damnation promised by our pastors and parents.
Well there's your problem. You weren't taught truth. I can see why you are cynical.
Bram van Kampen wrote:
Gods simply do not exist.
I can tell you that He does.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
Well, How can you prove that? All Phylosiphers I know, are of the opinion that the existence of God or Not, is a human assumption which can neither be proved or disproved. As long as you are happy to believe in 'A' or 'any' god, Peace be with you, as long as your God does not tell you to warr against the likes of me and mine, who do not believe in your God. :)
Bram van Kampen
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Bram van Kampen wrote:
At least I have not to be afraid anymore of the hell and damnation promised by our pastors and parents.
Well there's your problem. You weren't taught truth. I can see why you are cynical.
Bram van Kampen wrote:
Gods simply do not exist.
I can tell you that He does.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
Well, Offer me the proof of the existence of God, and I will accept! Believing alone is no proof. The fact is, you were probably brainwashed in your belief, by your parents. I was too! I was first of all baptised, and sent to schools where I was subjected to "Religious Education". I managed to escape from that by logical thinking. Come on now! You are capable of understanding Logic, I assume, by virtue of you being a member of this site. I sdtill maintain, God is a figment of human imagination. Kind and Friendly Regards, :)
Bram van Kampen
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Bram van Kampen wrote:
The Concept of a Soul is a medieval construct to explain the things that at the time could not be understood. I think we are in a position to know better now. I for one am not afraid of dying. I will simply cease to exist. This has nothing to do with believing, it has to do with Knowing.
These sound a hell of a lot like articles of faith to me, making you just another religious nut-job that refuses to embrace science. The distinction between faith and science is that science is, by definition, falsifiable. Faith, however, is "Knowing".
"Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor
Nathan Minier wrote:
These sound a hell of a lot like articles of faith to me, making you just another religious nut-job that refuses to embrace science. The distinction between faith and science is that science is, by definition, falsifiable. Faith, however, is "Knowing".
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No, You misread me! I just try to convince inteligent people that God or any god at all does not exists, that Faith is something handed over from generation to generation as an infection of the mind,and that science is the way forward. As a former victim, I have to address these people in the language they are accustomed to. I am a prolestresising atheist! :)
Bram van Kampen
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Bram van Kampen wrote:
I for one am not afraid of dying. I will simply cease to exist.
That reflects my basic belief as well. But then I sometimes ask myself (and even others): If I am wrong, would be any great loss to me? Harp music for an eternity - I guess I'd be happy to avoid that. Some old fellow demanding that I surrender and kneel down, obeying him forever. Being told which sounds are forbidden to utter. Which food I cannot eat. Which partners I cannot have. Which thoughts I am not allowed to have. Which pleasures I am not allowed to have ... Sorry, you Christians: I do not find it attractive at all. Some other afterlives may be more attractive. I guess I'd prefer the Norse Valhalla to the world of that brute emperor of the Biblical afterlife!
Well I have rejected all religion. In it's place, I have very deep Humanism. That means that for me, nothing can be forbidden, unless it harms others. Thinking must always be free! Beyond that you are missing some points. You are talking about afterlives. My central point is, that no such thing exists. "When I die I cease to Exist" Litterally that! You cannot imagine that? well, where were you 2000 BC? can you remember? No, you did not exist at that time. Were will you be in 3000 AD, well, in the same place as in 2000 BC, You do not exist. All religions play on that being different. and tell lies over life after death. It simply does not exist, and, those that tell you that is does, are either lying or misguided. :)
Bram van Kampen
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Well, How can you prove that? All Phylosiphers I know, are of the opinion that the existence of God or Not, is a human assumption which can neither be proved or disproved. As long as you are happy to believe in 'A' or 'any' god, Peace be with you, as long as your God does not tell you to warr against the likes of me and mine, who do not believe in your God. :)
Bram van Kampen
Bram van Kampen wrote:
How can you prove that?
It's simple. Pray to Him in faith with a sincere heart and he'll answer you.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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Well, Offer me the proof of the existence of God, and I will accept! Believing alone is no proof. The fact is, you were probably brainwashed in your belief, by your parents. I was too! I was first of all baptised, and sent to schools where I was subjected to "Religious Education". I managed to escape from that by logical thinking. Come on now! You are capable of understanding Logic, I assume, by virtue of you being a member of this site. I sdtill maintain, God is a figment of human imagination. Kind and Friendly Regards, :)
Bram van Kampen
Bram van Kampen wrote:
Offer me the proof of the existence of God, and I will accept!
Fair enough. But first, you prove to me that you love your family or else I won't accept that you do. :-D
Bram van Kampen wrote:
you were probably brainwashed in your belief
Nope. Came to the conclusions on my own.
Bram van Kampen wrote:
You are capable of understanding Logic,
Oh no you didn't!! You can make a lot of arguments against there being a God but logic is NOT one of them. For example, let's say you go hiking in middle of the desert and are miles and miles away from anyone or anything. You come across a pizza on the ground. Are you suggesting it's more logical to assume that the elements somehow magically came together to form the pizza or is it more logical to assume someone left it there? :-\
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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Bram van Kampen wrote:
How can you prove that?
It's simple. Pray to Him in faith with a sincere heart and he'll answer you.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
ZurdoDev wrote:
's simple. Pray to Him in faith with a sincere heart and he'll answer you.
The burden of proof is upon you. I know you are a decent, kind, and, well meaning person. I also know that you are deluded, No fault of your own. Blame your parents for instilling this delusion into you from a very young age. At the same time, that sort of thought is precisely what I mean by Medieval thinking. It will never convince me! What is wrong with the older Greek and roman Gods, Zeus, Neptune etc, or, the various Viking Gods. People stopped believing in these, and, the sky did not fall down. Sooner rather than later, the same will befall this current christian God. Atheism is thankfully on the rise, and soon, mankind will be able to shake off these delusions.
Bram van Kampen
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ZurdoDev wrote:
's simple. Pray to Him in faith with a sincere heart and he'll answer you.
The burden of proof is upon you. I know you are a decent, kind, and, well meaning person. I also know that you are deluded, No fault of your own. Blame your parents for instilling this delusion into you from a very young age. At the same time, that sort of thought is precisely what I mean by Medieval thinking. It will never convince me! What is wrong with the older Greek and roman Gods, Zeus, Neptune etc, or, the various Viking Gods. People stopped believing in these, and, the sky did not fall down. Sooner rather than later, the same will befall this current christian God. Atheism is thankfully on the rise, and soon, mankind will be able to shake off these delusions.
Bram van Kampen
Bram van Kampen wrote:
The burden of proof is upon you.
And I gave it to you. What part do you not understand? Let me skip a few steps since I've been through this with other atheists and I know your playbook. The bottom line is you will NOT accept ANY evidence or ANY proof. If God showed up at your door, you would NOT believe. The problem is not in the lack or abundance of evidence, it is in your closed mind. Period.
Bram van Kampen wrote:
I also know that you are deluded, No fault of your own. Blame your parents for instilling this delusion into you from a very young age.
Actually you know next to nothing about me and absolutely zero about my parents. But the fact that you would try to insult both me and my parents without knowing anything about us is immature and cowardly.
Bram van Kampen wrote:
It will never convince me!
And until you have a sincere heart, you'll never know the truth and still wonder why intelligent people believe in god.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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Bram van Kampen wrote:
Offer me the proof of the existence of God, and I will accept!
Fair enough. But first, you prove to me that you love your family or else I won't accept that you do. :-D
Bram van Kampen wrote:
you were probably brainwashed in your belief
Nope. Came to the conclusions on my own.
Bram van Kampen wrote:
You are capable of understanding Logic,
Oh no you didn't!! You can make a lot of arguments against there being a God but logic is NOT one of them. For example, let's say you go hiking in middle of the desert and are miles and miles away from anyone or anything. You come across a pizza on the ground. Are you suggesting it's more logical to assume that the elements somehow magically came together to form the pizza or is it more logical to assume someone left it there? :-\
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
Well, I now understand the angle you come from: Intelligent Design. (For those not in the Know, If you find a working watch on a beach, you must assume that someone made it, If you find a far more complex thing, something like a Human on Earth, someone. I.E. God) must have made it. It assumes an Outside reason, namely God. The Counter argument is as follows:- Over Millions of years, chemical processes have occurred, Life forms have developed and died out, and now, there is a life form with greater than average inteligence. It arrived by total coincidence, but, ik can ask questions. It starts inventing Gods to explain it's own existence.) That cuts absolutely no ice with me, and, was dismissed as a fallacy philosophy at least 20 years ago. Read a few science books, in particular those written by Richard Dankin, particularly, "The Blind Watch Maker". We look back in history to look for a reason for our existence. We arrived as a human race where we are, purely by chance. Had we not arrived here, we would not have existed to argue the point. No, you have not allowed yourself to disassociate yourself from medieval myths, promulgated trough the centuries. As soon as you get your head around it, you will look back and realise that you are spouting recycled medieval bullshit.
Bram van Kampen
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Bram van Kampen wrote:
The Concept of a Soul is a medieval construct to explain the things that at the time could not be understood. I think we are in a position to know better now. I for one am not afraid of dying. I will simply cease to exist. This has nothing to do with believing, it has to do with Knowing.
These sound a hell of a lot like articles of faith to me, making you just another religious nut-job that refuses to embrace science. The distinction between faith and science is that science is, by definition, falsifiable. Faith, however, is "Knowing".
"Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor
Well, It actually embraces science. :)
Bram van Kampen
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Well, I now understand the angle you come from: Intelligent Design. (For those not in the Know, If you find a working watch on a beach, you must assume that someone made it, If you find a far more complex thing, something like a Human on Earth, someone. I.E. God) must have made it. It assumes an Outside reason, namely God. The Counter argument is as follows:- Over Millions of years, chemical processes have occurred, Life forms have developed and died out, and now, there is a life form with greater than average inteligence. It arrived by total coincidence, but, ik can ask questions. It starts inventing Gods to explain it's own existence.) That cuts absolutely no ice with me, and, was dismissed as a fallacy philosophy at least 20 years ago. Read a few science books, in particular those written by Richard Dankin, particularly, "The Blind Watch Maker". We look back in history to look for a reason for our existence. We arrived as a human race where we are, purely by chance. Had we not arrived here, we would not have existed to argue the point. No, you have not allowed yourself to disassociate yourself from medieval myths, promulgated trough the centuries. As soon as you get your head around it, you will look back and realise that you are spouting recycled medieval bullshit.
Bram van Kampen
:laugh: :laugh: I went to a science museum recently and they have an intro video so we watched it. They said the current belief is that life started in the ocean and then moved on to land. And you say that I am the one who has not tried to think about this?!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: So, one Friday night millions of years ago there were no land creatures. Then on Saturday morning one fish decided to leave the water. Of course, it would have died. But another fish saw it and decided on Sunday morning that it would leave the water. Of course, it died too (fish can't live out of water.) And after thousands of attempts one fish who just happened to be a mutant left the water and survived on land. Wow!!! Evolution is working!! But who could that one fish reproduce with? Oops. We didn't think about that. So, since we can't actually explain how any of it happened, we just apply "LOTS OF TIME" to the equation and then we say "Ya, that could happen." But then this fish that miraculously survived somehow mated with something and then years down the road one of their offspring was born with legs. And then it climbed a tree.... To claim YOU are the thinker in this debate is entirely laughable. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I encourage you to use the brain you were given. If you do, you will realize that there is no possibility that life could have just happened. Impossible.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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Well Hanlon's razor These are articles of No Faith! I believe in Humanism, and absolutely disbelieves in God)(s), I am a "Card Carrying Atheist!" You got my quotes, but somehow arrived at the wrong conclusion. I totally embrace science! You totally got the wrong end of the stick. I try to embrace science, to take God out of the equation Step 1: My first statement was that the human brain comprises a computer, the precise nature and way of operation is not well understood, That does not imply that is was designed by a God Step 2: My second statement was that the entire experience of existence, as an individual human being, is something programed in by learning at early age Step 3. Young children can be made to believe in anything. My Parents made me believe in Santa Claus in Holland, until I was about 10. They also made me believe at that time in an all Powerful God. Step 4. I consider that whole concept of religion and afterlife, utter and total nonsense!
Bram van Kampen
I want to apologize in advance: I don't mean to speak in your voice here, I'm just mapping my general understanding of the world back when I embraced Atheism to what I perceive as your mindset. To sum it all up, you thoroughly and absolutely believe there is no God or meta reality, be it the afterlife or Wheel of Life and death. You believe that everything can be reduced to a fundamental truth through the judicious use of science. Moreover, you believe in the impossibility of a god, be it an Alpha or an Omega. Moreover, the insertion of any concept of a god into an argument automatically invalidates it, in your eyes. You do all of this with no concrete evidence of the nature of reality. You "know" these things to be true, unabashedly, and without doubt. Conflicting considerations are obviously untrue, to you, because they do not fit within the framework through which you understand the world. All of these things are articles of faith, and that's fine. You have faith in a NULL value (about a half step away from Nihilism, really). Most Atheists will, at some point, realize that they have no idea how the underlying fabric of the universe operates, and that's also okay. My stance is simple, as a "matured Atheist" (read Agnostic): I have no idea how the mechanics of reality operate, and neither does anyone else, and anyone that claims otherwise is probably trying to sell me something.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor
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I want to apologize in advance: I don't mean to speak in your voice here, I'm just mapping my general understanding of the world back when I embraced Atheism to what I perceive as your mindset. To sum it all up, you thoroughly and absolutely believe there is no God or meta reality, be it the afterlife or Wheel of Life and death. You believe that everything can be reduced to a fundamental truth through the judicious use of science. Moreover, you believe in the impossibility of a god, be it an Alpha or an Omega. Moreover, the insertion of any concept of a god into an argument automatically invalidates it, in your eyes. You do all of this with no concrete evidence of the nature of reality. You "know" these things to be true, unabashedly, and without doubt. Conflicting considerations are obviously untrue, to you, because they do not fit within the framework through which you understand the world. All of these things are articles of faith, and that's fine. You have faith in a NULL value (about a half step away from Nihilism, really). Most Atheists will, at some point, realize that they have no idea how the underlying fabric of the universe operates, and that's also okay. My stance is simple, as a "matured Atheist" (read Agnostic): I have no idea how the mechanics of reality operate, and neither does anyone else, and anyone that claims otherwise is probably trying to sell me something.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor
Well, I decidedly leave the concept of the existence of an outer, and per definition unknowable God out of the equation. Such god may or may not exist, but, such Godly existence is essentially immaterial. The Mechanics of reality are simple. One gets Born, One gets Consciousness, and one dies. My central point is about that middle: "Consciousness". That is not a 'Godly Spark' it is a program in our brains that makes us experience this sense of consciousness. Nothing to do with believing in any God or Noe. N.B. I see your own self doubt in your argument. I can glean that at the one hand, logically cannot accept the existence of a God, but, at the otherhand, cannot think about a world without a God I can see that you think that Justice is delivered by God Alone. That is absolutely Untrue! Human Mankind has in its innate Psyche, a sense of Good and Bad, Right or Wrong. I am a passionate Humanist, that follows these principles.
Bram van Kampen
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Well, I decidedly leave the concept of the existence of an outer, and per definition unknowable God out of the equation. Such god may or may not exist, but, such Godly existence is essentially immaterial. The Mechanics of reality are simple. One gets Born, One gets Consciousness, and one dies. My central point is about that middle: "Consciousness". That is not a 'Godly Spark' it is a program in our brains that makes us experience this sense of consciousness. Nothing to do with believing in any God or Noe. N.B. I see your own self doubt in your argument. I can glean that at the one hand, logically cannot accept the existence of a God, but, at the otherhand, cannot think about a world without a God I can see that you think that Justice is delivered by God Alone. That is absolutely Untrue! Human Mankind has in its innate Psyche, a sense of Good and Bad, Right or Wrong. I am a passionate Humanist, that follows these principles.
Bram van Kampen
Bram van Kampen wrote:
Such god may or may not exist, but, such Godly existence is essentially immaterial.
Well hell, that's actually an Agnostic mindset, good job!
Bram van Kampen wrote:
I see your own self doubt in your argument. I can glean that at the one hand, logically cannot accept the existence of a God, but, at the otherhand, cannot think about a world without a God
Bah, and there it goes. No, the concept of god is stupid, however claiming to "know" that there is or isn't some sort of metaphysical existence is equally stupid.
Bram van Kampen wrote:
I can see that you think that Justice is delivered by God Alone.
ROFlMAO
Bram van Kampen wrote:
Human Mankind has in its innate Psyche, a sense of Good and Bad, Right or Wrong.
Millennia of philosophy disagree.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor
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Well Folks We all write programs. The question is: where do your efforts go, when halfway through a debug, your system locks up, and, the only way out is to re-start your computer. Your efforts evaporated, and, increased the entropy of the universe. The Human brain is an incredibly complex computer, which we have not yet mastered to fully understand. It is certainly not Binary. It has it's own system of messaging and information storage. We do not (yet) understand the precise details of the How, but, we can live with the concept. That magnificent but Ill understood Computer runs a program, that gives us our self awareness, our agency to make decisions, and, outside of our awareness, runs the power plant to keep us alive, the digestive system, etc. The concept of Information Technology is relatively New. Until recently, the concept of life with agency could only be explained by means of a Divine Spark of Life, given out by a God of local choice. Furthermore, that imagined spark of life would be eternal, and, Life should should go on somewhere after the demise of the body. A Heaven or Hell, dependent on the religion one practices. The concept of an 'Hereafter' goes back thousands of years. (and as Soul that somehow lives on beyond death) Well I would state that there is no such thing as a soul. When an individual dies, ultimately the Brain is Shut Down, and the information contained therein, goes to increase the enthrophy of the universe. The Concept of a Soul is a medieval construct to explain the things that at the time could not be understood. I think we are in a position to know better now. I for one am not afraid of dying. I will simply cease to exist. This has nothing to do with believing, it has to do with Knowing.
Bram van Kampen
Shall we say the same then about other things in life? Should everything be declared by one of our five senses for it to actually exist? Think of the mind (not the brain now). We can't see, feel, hear, smell or taste our mind. Yet, you can loose your mind and sit in a mental institute of some sort. What gives us our personality that makes us different one from another? Is it our brain or our heart?
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Shall we say the same then about other things in life? Should everything be declared by one of our five senses for it to actually exist? Think of the mind (not the brain now). We can't see, feel, hear, smell or taste our mind. Yet, you can loose your mind and sit in a mental institute of some sort. What gives us our personality that makes us different one from another? Is it our brain or our heart?
Well Dylvh
Dylvh wrote:
Shall we say the same then about other things in life? Should everything be declared by one of our five senses for it to actually exist? Think of the mind (not the brain now). We can't see, feel, hear, smell or taste our mind. Yet, you can loose your mind and sit in a mental institute of some sort. What gives us our personality that makes us different one from another? Is it our brain or our heart?
Actually all we experience is declared by our senses. This is something actually addressed and put to bed by Plato, some 2000 years ago. We simply have no other means of observing the world around us, other than by our senses. Plato, and following philosophers needed something dat did de actual living, that expressed the 'Animation' of the human body, the freedom of thinking and ideas, etc. So the Soul was invented, a sort of spiritual existence that managed and operated the human body, an eternal spirit or soul. Plato knew absolutely nothing about computers, or anything like that. My thesis is, that the brain of any animal (or human) constitutes a very complicated, and poorly understood computer. Furthermore, that our consciousness and agency, in other words, our mind, are the result of programs running in this computer. If for some reason the program crashes, or, if the computer has hardware faults, one might indeed end up in a mental institution. Your physical organ of your 'Hearth' has absolutely nothing to do with this at all. Taking the choice between Hearth and Brain 'Poetically',You have two strands of thought in whatever problem you have. Both take place simultaneously in your brain. The one is, go by your feelings, the other is go by experience and evidence. That is where your great computer in your scull comes in. you will have to decide!
Bram van Kampen
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:laugh: :laugh: I went to a science museum recently and they have an intro video so we watched it. They said the current belief is that life started in the ocean and then moved on to land. And you say that I am the one who has not tried to think about this?!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: So, one Friday night millions of years ago there were no land creatures. Then on Saturday morning one fish decided to leave the water. Of course, it would have died. But another fish saw it and decided on Sunday morning that it would leave the water. Of course, it died too (fish can't live out of water.) And after thousands of attempts one fish who just happened to be a mutant left the water and survived on land. Wow!!! Evolution is working!! But who could that one fish reproduce with? Oops. We didn't think about that. So, since we can't actually explain how any of it happened, we just apply "LOTS OF TIME" to the equation and then we say "Ya, that could happen." But then this fish that miraculously survived somehow mated with something and then years down the road one of their offspring was born with legs. And then it climbed a tree.... To claim YOU are the thinker in this debate is entirely laughable. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I encourage you to use the brain you were given. If you do, you will realize that there is no possibility that life could have just happened. Impossible.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
Well,
Quote:
I encourage you to use the brain you were given. If you do, you will realize that there is no possibility that life could have just happened. Impossible.
You need to do an awful lot more of reading and thinking, before you can qualify as a scientist, never mind a computer scientist. It is indeed not impossible (but most likely)for life on earth to have started spontaneously, without divine intervention.
Bram van Kampen