Call for a Professional Programmers' Association
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Programming is the most intellectually stimulating activity that I have ever performed. It is not so much the making of things from nothing as it is the satisfaction that comes when I have created a thing of intellectual beauty. To me programming is a combination of art and science. And, in programming, technical competency goes hand in hand with technical currency. So that you understand from whence I come I would like to introduce you to what I have done during my career, and what I continue to do in a more relaxed environment: I wrote stand alone multi-threaded client/server systems; graphics software and effective user interfaces to complex scientific and engineering applications; real-time and embedded system software and firmware; and communications system software. I continue to be fluent in multiple computer programming languages (e.g., C#, C, Ada, FORTRAN, COBOL, and Pascal). I have programmed within Windows, UNIX, Linux, VxWorks, as well as others too old and long ago to mention. What bothers me about programming today is the number of people who claim to be programmers but who are not. These wannabes claim to be programmers but when you look at a wannabe's accomplishments, they usually include applications that are written in a macro language (such as VBA) and that are usually trivial and unfocused. We need a word to describe this class of people who are intelligent enough to pretend to program without actually programming. In many other career paths, they would be called apprentices. Let me define what I did in unambiguous terms. I was a professional production programmer who wrote computer software for money paid by someone who would probably not use the software. I firmly believe that programmers should be held accountable for their mistakes (witness the Boeing 737 Max disasters). I am convinced that the only solution to this problem is the certification of programmers by a vendor-independent organization. Although Code Project has indicated that it is opposed to such a certification organization, I believe that the arguments offered were specious. My question is simply "Doesn't the programmer who wrote the software that caused some type of catastrophe share the responsibility for the disaster?" It is for this reason that certification is required. Once such an organization is in place, companies that do not wish to share the blame for a software based disaster can hire a certified professional. The certified professional should then use certified journeymen and certified apprentices to d
I believe the call is raising a very important concern. While it is true that fault can come from management, but a programmer sitting on a desk may not have the right defense to say 'no' to things that he or she is asked to certain things which do not necessarily is ethical. An association could also make a programmer stronger so that he/she can defend in reference to ethical standards set by the professional association and with the existence of such association, programmers may not be proactively working on the 'unethical' things within the software. Uncle (Bob) Martin would also agree as he has been talking about a need for professionalism for some time now. HEre is the link about Uncle (Bob) Martin's call for professionalism Robert C. Martin (Uncle Bob) - Demanding Professionalism in Software Development – Zaneta Baran[^]
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These are self imposed titles. A programmer is a programmer is a programmer. You can claim developer is better but a programmer is a developer is a programmer. Same thing. As much as the OP wants it to be engineer, or whatever. I have programmed for years on my own. Never employed as a programmer - but I am proficient enough that I am not really concerned about what language you'd like me to use (unless some technical specification makes in insane to make it work). I've gotten to a point a long time ago that it's just translation and what pre-exiting functions/classes/etc.. you have to work with. But, I also have a wide variety of knowledge to bring to the table that many programmers don't. Such as - my high end background in IT and business systems gives me a lot of knowledge about operating systems, servers (web/mail/database/routing/etc), security models, networking/network security, database design/implementation/security/tuning, accounting systems, double entry bookkeeping and accounting, tax code, legal issues (business, government, etc). Many computer languages: direct hex editing; various assemblers, COBOL, BASICs, PASCALs, Cs, C++s, SQLs, DDLs, VB(DOS)/VB(Windows)/VB.NET, C#, Java, JavaScript, VBScript, HTML, CSS, XML, etc., etc. and I've programed across many of these boundaries. Currently writing a billing system for a County Government using C#, Azure SQL Server, with some web components. Also, a mostly finished custom air handler control system using RaspberryPi with Python, MQTT, as well as designing the circuit board and components for a small datacenter I own and run. However - don't worry about keeping all the code locked in my head. I know what I want to do - the general structure that I need to develop, the security concerns, the bookkeeping side of it all, the web server and security side of it all and I simply look up what I don't recall (which is a lot - specific syntax, data types, even finding the commands/classes/etc... that I want to utilize. Makes me a bit slower - but there's very little I can't develop. I even wrote 3D graphics rotation systems back in the early 80's on my Apple II - and my own multi-language complier. BUT - I doubt I would pass a programmer certification test - as they are typically very specific in what they want you to know off the top of your head - like about some language syntax or command use. Who cares - look it up. That's what the docs are for - and google ;) But - should I be an apprentice? Or be excluded for working for a business as a programmer/coder/wh
I think you expect too much from your "average" customer in terms of vetting a "programmer". Makes about as much sense as me making a medical diagnosis, which didn't involve just an "aspirin". There are "laws" to protect the consumer. Same difference. And when I talk of "developing", that includes: Scope / problem definition User requirements analysis Current system analysis Preliminary / detail design Presenting, gaining acceptance Planning, estimating and allocating resources Executing, monitoring and controlling Unit, integration and system testing User training and acceptance testing Documentation Turnover to production / maintenance. Oh, and "programming". And I have to carry $2,000,000 in "liability insurance". There's my "cred".
The Master said, 'Am I indeed possessed of knowledge? I am not knowing. But if a mean person, who appears quite empty-like, ask anything of me, I set it forth from one end to the other, and exhaust it.' ― Confucian Analects
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Generally 'senior developers' are more expensive. I think you misunderstood - or I didn't say it well - but I don't believe 'Certs' protect anyone - especially the customer. I believe it gives them a feeling of false security that leads them to abdicate their own responsibility to look into the topic enough on their own to be able to ask smart questions and to have proper expectations of an employee or a contractor - which too often leads to bad ends. There are too many people with degrees, certifications, licenses, whatever - that do not truly have the skillset to do what they claim. So long as these titles carry weight - people will not take the responsibility to make sure they can actually do the job. The 'title' says it all for them - or at least too much. The employer or customer hiring a contractor - whether it is programming, IT, house repairs, etc... needs to be competent enough on the subject at hand to know what seems legit, to have an idea when things are going sideways, and what to do when and if that happens, how to setup internal policies for firing and/or when to break the contract and move on, etc...
Sounds like you never freelanced.
The Master said, 'Am I indeed possessed of knowledge? I am not knowing. But if a mean person, who appears quite empty-like, ask anything of me, I set it forth from one end to the other, and exhaust it.' ― Confucian Analects
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Many years ago, at a social event, I was introduced to an attractive woman. She asked me what I did for a living and I responded that I was a "software developer". She then asked me some questions and when I could not answer any to her satisfaction, she said that I couldn't be a very good software developer. After further discussion, I found that software, in her mind was clothing. Since then I always reply "computer software developer".
Gus Gustafson
I hear you. Depending on the audience, I am, not necessarily in that order: computer programmer programmer-analyst software developer IT consultant IT contractor the computer guy self-employed
The Master said, 'Am I indeed possessed of knowledge? I am not knowing. But if a mean person, who appears quite empty-like, ask anything of me, I set it forth from one end to the other, and exhaust it.' ― Confucian Analects
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I never intended that professional programmers (i.e.,those who are paid) who use VBA ever think that I am putting them down. VBA is a language that, in the hands of a knowledgeable programmer, can do magic with a spreadsheet. When I used VBA in my complaint about wannabes, I was using an example. I could have used PHP. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Regards,
Gus Gustafson
Script kiddies, in other words.
The Master said, 'Am I indeed possessed of knowledge? I am not knowing. But if a mean person, who appears quite empty-like, ask anything of me, I set it forth from one end to the other, and exhaust it.' ― Confucian Analects
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Programming is the most intellectually stimulating activity that I have ever performed. It is not so much the making of things from nothing as it is the satisfaction that comes when I have created a thing of intellectual beauty. To me programming is a combination of art and science. And, in programming, technical competency goes hand in hand with technical currency. So that you understand from whence I come I would like to introduce you to what I have done during my career, and what I continue to do in a more relaxed environment: I wrote stand alone multi-threaded client/server systems; graphics software and effective user interfaces to complex scientific and engineering applications; real-time and embedded system software and firmware; and communications system software. I continue to be fluent in multiple computer programming languages (e.g., C#, C, Ada, FORTRAN, COBOL, and Pascal). I have programmed within Windows, UNIX, Linux, VxWorks, as well as others too old and long ago to mention. What bothers me about programming today is the number of people who claim to be programmers but who are not. These wannabes claim to be programmers but when you look at a wannabe's accomplishments, they usually include applications that are written in a macro language (such as VBA) and that are usually trivial and unfocused. We need a word to describe this class of people who are intelligent enough to pretend to program without actually programming. In many other career paths, they would be called apprentices. Let me define what I did in unambiguous terms. I was a professional production programmer who wrote computer software for money paid by someone who would probably not use the software. I firmly believe that programmers should be held accountable for their mistakes (witness the Boeing 737 Max disasters). I am convinced that the only solution to this problem is the certification of programmers by a vendor-independent organization. Although Code Project has indicated that it is opposed to such a certification organization, I believe that the arguments offered were specious. My question is simply "Doesn't the programmer who wrote the software that caused some type of catastrophe share the responsibility for the disaster?" It is for this reason that certification is required. Once such an organization is in place, companies that do not wish to share the blame for a software based disaster can hire a certified professional. The certified professional should then use certified journeymen and certified apprentices to d
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Ciao a tutti, Scrivo in italiano per esprimermi meglio, e spero che riusciate a comprendere usando un traduttore. La parola "programmatore" nel corso del tempo ha subito una trasformazione nel significato. Quando ho scelto, a 17 anni, che questa passione sarebbe diventato il mio mondo, essere programmatore aveva lo stesso significato di essere "uno scenziato". Ora che ne ho 54, la parola ha subito un deprezzamento. Anche chi sa usare le macro di Excel si propone come programmatore. Non voglio denigrare coloro che, per diletto o per necessità, si ingegniano nell'accontentare amici o datori di lavoro. Ma il significato della parola programmatore è un altro. Non è semplicemente la conoscenza di nozioni, saper buttare del codice, farlo funzionare alla meno peggio. E' un arte (perchè di questo si tratta). Saper scrivere codice di qualità è come la differenza che c'è fra la pizza fatta in qualsiasi paese del mondo con ingredienti locali e quella napoletana fatta con gli ingredienti campani. Il programmatore "puro" ha una visione d'insieme dell'intero argomento non solo del singolo problema, ha la capacità di essere critico sul suo codice, di esser disposto anche a riscriverlo per raggiungere la perfezione sintattica del linguaggio scelto. Appartenere a forum o gruppi come questo non fa di per se essere programmatori. A programmer is ..a artist
Google Translate:
Hi everyone, I write in Italian to express myself better, and I hope you can understand using a translator. The word "programmer" over time has undergone a transformation in meaning. When I chose, at 17, that this passion would become my world, being a programmer had the same meaning as being "a scientist". Now that I'm 54, the word has depreciated. Even those who know how to use Excel macros propose themselves as a programmer. I do not want to denigrate those who, for pleasure or necessity, try to please friends or employers. But the meaning of the word programmer is another. It is not simply the knowledge of notions, knowing how to throw out code, making it work at the worst. It is an art (because of this it is). Knowing how to write quality code is like the difference between pizza made in any country in the world with local ingredients and Neapolitan-made pizza made with Campania ingredients. The "pure" programmer has an overview of the whole topic not only of the single problem, he has the ability to be critical of his code, to be willing to rewrite it to reach the
La Campania ha acciughe e ananas ?
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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BillWoodruff wrote:
Isn't CodeProject a great example of a community ? Do you think "community" is dependent on lack of conflict, lack of strong opinions, lack of diversity ?
Yes, I definitely think of CP as a community. I was just saying there doesn't seem to be specifically focused community related to directing future dev practices. It would be quite difficult to get such a body of people together. I think the original Agile people did that (when they got together and came up with the Agile Manifesto[^]) --- before Agile even had a name. But, yes, CP is actually one of, if not the absolute best, communities for devs. There are few (maybe no other) sites where devs of all types come together the way they do here, even amidst all the wild opinions and personalities.:thumbsup:
@Raddevus Hi, If there's one thing I am sure of, it's that I'd be proud if you thought I was in your community :omg: I consider some of the Quora groups, like [^], and [^], and various SIG groups at the ACM [^], to be virtual communities where you often find people sharing/discussing topics at higher levels of abstraction than specific OS's, languages, hardware. cheers, Bill
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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Sounds like you never freelanced.
The Master said, 'Am I indeed possessed of knowledge? I am not knowing. But if a mean person, who appears quite empty-like, ask anything of me, I set it forth from one end to the other, and exhaust it.' ― Confucian Analects
That's an interesting take. I've had an IT company for many years - much less freelance. My focus was not on software development, but IT solutions as a whole. I did some programming projects - but mostly the programming I did was of my own interest. And what's that supposed to mean anyway - that I don't know what a cert means for getting work? Of course I do. And as I stated in another post - I have like 5 certifications - besides a programming degree - that still doesn't mean anything as there are people with certs and degrees that are subpar at best. Again, customers simply relying on that is not enough - they need to take responsibility for knowing what they should be expecting vs getting, otherwise they are up for being taken advantage of. And yes - there are courts for when that happens - but that process is expensive, time consuming, reduces confidence in the industry, etc. It's not the preferred route. Just because I have certs and a degree, doesn't mean I don't get into details about my particular abilities and skills when I'm going after a job or trying to get new customers. I know they help get jobs - but they shouldn't. Too much weight is put on them. Just like at the moment too much weight is put on college degrees to get regular jobs. It's a game. 4 years of OJT vs a 4 year degree - I'd take the OJT any day over the degree - from my experience anyway.
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I think you expect too much from your "average" customer in terms of vetting a "programmer". Makes about as much sense as me making a medical diagnosis, which didn't involve just an "aspirin". There are "laws" to protect the consumer. Same difference. And when I talk of "developing", that includes: Scope / problem definition User requirements analysis Current system analysis Preliminary / detail design Presenting, gaining acceptance Planning, estimating and allocating resources Executing, monitoring and controlling Unit, integration and system testing User training and acceptance testing Documentation Turnover to production / maintenance. Oh, and "programming". And I have to carry $2,000,000 in "liability insurance". There's my "cred".
The Master said, 'Am I indeed possessed of knowledge? I am not knowing. But if a mean person, who appears quite empty-like, ask anything of me, I set it forth from one end to the other, and exhaust it.' ― Confucian Analects
And you honestly think because the customer see that a programmers has a cert that they are then vetted? And yes - if you have a medical condition - do you not make some effort to figure out what it could be, or after going to a doctor - research their conclusions or get a second opinion if a serious issue? Due diligence... Your list is fine - and doesn't define anything that is not programming. You don't just set down and start plunking the keyboard. You have to define the problem, figure out requirements, da, da, da... I learned nearly 40 years ago that your list is the basic steps of software development/programming. One in the same. Smaller programs may allow skipping some of this - especially when designing for your own purposes - as you are the end user and know what you want to do and so on. But if your are doing it for someone else - and you want to do a good job - what part of this do you leave out? Maybe you make the distinction that someone hired to write code (a 'programmer') based on the specs given to them after a systems analyst has had at the project, and the user interface design team has worked up their parts, and the project manger has distributed the work amongst the 'programmers' - that these 'programmers' are not developers? I think any 'programmer' should always be a developer if that is your distinction. I don't think I have ever met anyone - self trained, college trained, etc... that looks at programming so narrowly. 'Development' is inherently part of programming in my view. Having a team to split the work load over doesn't absolve the 'programmers' from knowing, understanding, and participating in the overall process. If that's how some handle it - then I think this is poor managements and not taking advantage of the full resources of their programmers/developers/engineers. In my opinion - these are all programmers/software developers/software engineers - whatever - its just a matter of entry level, junior, senior rankings of whatever you want to call them. People are always playing with names. I don't want to be a janitor - I want to be the custodial engineer, or I don't want to be a secretary, I want to be the Front Desk Executive. Same here. We have a department at the state that calls their people that know how to change settings in their tax system software - programmers. Their administrator is the DBA. Names, names, names...
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Programming is the most intellectually stimulating activity that I have ever performed. It is not so much the making of things from nothing as it is the satisfaction that comes when I have created a thing of intellectual beauty. To me programming is a combination of art and science. And, in programming, technical competency goes hand in hand with technical currency. So that you understand from whence I come I would like to introduce you to what I have done during my career, and what I continue to do in a more relaxed environment: I wrote stand alone multi-threaded client/server systems; graphics software and effective user interfaces to complex scientific and engineering applications; real-time and embedded system software and firmware; and communications system software. I continue to be fluent in multiple computer programming languages (e.g., C#, C, Ada, FORTRAN, COBOL, and Pascal). I have programmed within Windows, UNIX, Linux, VxWorks, as well as others too old and long ago to mention. What bothers me about programming today is the number of people who claim to be programmers but who are not. These wannabes claim to be programmers but when you look at a wannabe's accomplishments, they usually include applications that are written in a macro language (such as VBA) and that are usually trivial and unfocused. We need a word to describe this class of people who are intelligent enough to pretend to program without actually programming. In many other career paths, they would be called apprentices. Let me define what I did in unambiguous terms. I was a professional production programmer who wrote computer software for money paid by someone who would probably not use the software. I firmly believe that programmers should be held accountable for their mistakes (witness the Boeing 737 Max disasters). I am convinced that the only solution to this problem is the certification of programmers by a vendor-independent organization. Although Code Project has indicated that it is opposed to such a certification organization, I believe that the arguments offered were specious. My question is simply "Doesn't the programmer who wrote the software that caused some type of catastrophe share the responsibility for the disaster?" It is for this reason that certification is required. Once such an organization is in place, companies that do not wish to share the blame for a software based disaster can hire a certified professional. The certified professional should then use certified journeymen and certified apprentices to d
Your post makes a lot of sense. You may be interested to look at the 'British Computer Society' in the UK. They accept qualified people from around the world into membership. Also, in the USA, there is the 'Association for Computing Machinery'. I enjoy the articles in their journal and they keep me in touch with what is going on in technology. Also, they provide access to online training courses, books and have a comprehensive digital library. Both of the above fulfil the role of learned societies rather than trade unions but I don't believe any competent programmer, software/systems designer, etc., has need of a trade union. Generally, because of their knowledge and experience, they can walk away from bad employers with the knowledge they will be picked up by some other company.
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La Campania ha acciughe e ananas ?
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
No, è vero, ma tutto il resto (farina, acqua, pomodoro, mozzarella... tecnica) si
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No, è vero, ma tutto il resto (farina, acqua, pomodoro, mozzarella... tecnica) si
I look forward to dinner with you ! :rolleyes:
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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Programming is the most intellectually stimulating activity that I have ever performed. It is not so much the making of things from nothing as it is the satisfaction that comes when I have created a thing of intellectual beauty. To me programming is a combination of art and science. And, in programming, technical competency goes hand in hand with technical currency. So that you understand from whence I come I would like to introduce you to what I have done during my career, and what I continue to do in a more relaxed environment: I wrote stand alone multi-threaded client/server systems; graphics software and effective user interfaces to complex scientific and engineering applications; real-time and embedded system software and firmware; and communications system software. I continue to be fluent in multiple computer programming languages (e.g., C#, C, Ada, FORTRAN, COBOL, and Pascal). I have programmed within Windows, UNIX, Linux, VxWorks, as well as others too old and long ago to mention. What bothers me about programming today is the number of people who claim to be programmers but who are not. These wannabes claim to be programmers but when you look at a wannabe's accomplishments, they usually include applications that are written in a macro language (such as VBA) and that are usually trivial and unfocused. We need a word to describe this class of people who are intelligent enough to pretend to program without actually programming. In many other career paths, they would be called apprentices. Let me define what I did in unambiguous terms. I was a professional production programmer who wrote computer software for money paid by someone who would probably not use the software. I firmly believe that programmers should be held accountable for their mistakes (witness the Boeing 737 Max disasters). I am convinced that the only solution to this problem is the certification of programmers by a vendor-independent organization. Although Code Project has indicated that it is opposed to such a certification organization, I believe that the arguments offered were specious. My question is simply "Doesn't the programmer who wrote the software that caused some type of catastrophe share the responsibility for the disaster?" It is for this reason that certification is required. Once such an organization is in place, companies that do not wish to share the blame for a software based disaster can hire a certified professional. The certified professional should then use certified journeymen and certified apprentices to d
I'm not going to call you a programming snob, but I do think you are biased against VBA programming. It's true that much of the programming in VBA is trivial, but some of it is very complex and supports a multitude of business in their day to day operations. Were it not for VBA these companies would have to pay a fortune for bespoke app's and spend large amounts of time doing things 'manually'.
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It provides certification and guarantees a certain level of familiarity with the subject. Accountability is not something that should be in hands of someone else outside of the law*. The rest reads like a workers' union. --edit *) the software was there to cover up an existing problem. So who is responsible? Hundreds Of 737 Max Pilots Sue Boeing Over 'Unprecedented Cover-Up" | Zero Hedge[^]
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Eddy, thanks for that link to the 737 Max story: a very well written, compelling, piece !
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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Eddy, thanks for that link to the 737 Max story: a very well written, compelling, piece !
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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As you must be well aware, there are a whole range of medical professionals, from medics and paramedics, to nurses, to LNPs, to general practitioners, to specialist medical doctors. There are many spaces between taking an aspirin and performing brain surgery. I would not be in favor of, nor would it even be possible, to limit the availability of development tools to only the most specialized software developers. People would still be free to learn and to tinker. I think software written by uncertified developers should even be allowed for sale, as long as this was disclosed, though you could make me believe that certain kinds of software should only be produced for sale by certified developers and organizations. I think liability for defective software should become an important part of this future. But I think that people who give software away for free, and disclose that it was done by uncertified developers could be made immune. Then developers of software for sale and users of free software would have to think clearly about whether open-source code was of good quality. If so, then including it would be OK. If not... maybe they should find the code somewhere else. Hopefully standards of care would become embedded in the liability law, and things wouldn't really be too much different than they are today. One might even make a business around uncertified software as long as the software was given away.
I agree. Thank you for your answer.
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I'm not going to call you a programming snob, but I do think you are biased against VBA programming. It's true that much of the programming in VBA is trivial, but some of it is very complex and supports a multitude of business in their day to day operations. Were it not for VBA these companies would have to pay a fortune for bespoke app's and spend large amounts of time doing things 'manually'.
Did I not make myself clear in my reply to Andrew L. Meador? Please don't try to draw me into a flame war regarding the worth of any or all programming languages. Each has a place. I have used VBA but I caution you, in most of my tasks, VBA would not be the language of choice. Systems, embedded, communications, weapons, medical, etc. software would be, in my opinion, very difficult to implement in VBA. But Excel spreadsheet modules are a different story. And should the organization that I propose come to fruition, VBA programmers would be more than welcome.
Gus Gustafson
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Your post makes a lot of sense. You may be interested to look at the 'British Computer Society' in the UK. They accept qualified people from around the world into membership. Also, in the USA, there is the 'Association for Computing Machinery'. I enjoy the articles in their journal and they keep me in touch with what is going on in technology. Also, they provide access to online training courses, books and have a comprehensive digital library. Both of the above fulfil the role of learned societies rather than trade unions but I don't believe any competent programmer, software/systems designer, etc., has need of a trade union. Generally, because of their knowledge and experience, they can walk away from bad employers with the knowledge they will be picked up by some other company.
In 1990 I was invited to a membership review committee by the ACM. I had been a critic of the organization for its failure to address the problems facing the production programmer. Yes, the Special Interest Groups had the occasional useful-to-a-production-programmer article (especially the SIGPLAN). But the vast majority of the publications (Journal, Communication, Review, etc.) were aimed at a more academic audience. ACM did not recognize the problem and I discontinued my membership two years later. So although ACM has some useful offerings, they come with a price too high. Thanks for your thoughts.
Gus Gustafson
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I intended to mention previously that I agree with you on goals, 100%. But these things get out of hand. The next thing you know the guy who barely phones it in is being promoted just because he's been there too long or you're on strike because there isn't enough tartar sauce to cover the mandated 7 fish sticks for lunch in the cafeteria. And who doesn't like a little on their chips as well... I only want to emphasize caution because I was part of a system that was too old and established to be changed or removed. To say that no one worth their salt was for it would be unfair because I worked with some truly exceptional software engineers who thought it was a fine idea. But it left me with the impression that there were limits to where my hard work could take me. To your aside, perhaps I should have use the term "world wide web", but ARPANET, man you are older than me!
I am older than most. My partner says I'm "older than rock". :)
Gus Gustafson