What do you think?
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Just a technical question, Christian, how are they supposed to send them back? According to the captain of the Norwegian boat, the boat is no supposed to take more than 30 people. And total amount of refugees is about 500, isn't it? Should these people all be packed like cargo, just because they are refugees? I totally agree, the best is to send them back, back how? Norwegians say that authorities don't allow those people to leave the boat, here is a problem. Just curious Vagif Abilov COM+/ATL/MFC Developer Oslo, Norway
Well, given you're in Norway I'd be interested in the difference between what my media tells me and what yours tells you. It's been claimed here that there is growing ill feeling in Norway towards Australia on the basis that we put in the call for help for these people and now we don't want them. I'd be interested ( and not at all corss ) to hear if this is true. I've also read that Norways preferred course is for them to be brought here, and I presumed from the context of the article that the idea was the boat that has them brought them. Nidonesia apparently gave permission for the boat to take the people there, then recinded. I don't see how such permission could be given unless it was asked for. According to the maps in the paper Indonesia is a holler and spit from where they are, which we are not. As to how, surely the issue is the same no matter how they travel ? If they go back or come here they either can come in the boat they are on or they cannot, and if they canot an alternative needs to be found in either direction. I think they should be landed on Christmas ISland for a brief time, to allow the ship to travel on ( it is after all a money making concern losing I believe $30,000 a day as it sits there ), and the Indonesian goverment told to come and pick their people up, or we'll drop them off and send the bill. I seem to remember we won a shooting war against these people not so long ago.... Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Our existence is the best prove that there's no God: Proceding in a mathemathical way we will consider that God exists and we'll finally get a contradiction: Assuming that God exists and that he is the perfection, now we consider our existence and our creation. What was before us? something else sure, but was it better than us? if it was, why did God changed it? if it wasn't, how could God allowed it? (Marquis De Sade) This is a simple prove based in the fact that perfection implies stability so something that has motion (like our universe) can't proceed from something perfect (a God). I agree that if we don't consider God as a perfect essence this is not true (but it's not even a God) That's all!
I always wonder when people come out with these sort of meaningless mental gymnastics if they are trying to convince others or themselves. I realise there are a myriad of reasons why people may decide not to look into the existance of a God, and so never to find out that He is there, but when people put up straw man arguments in order to cut them down, it just sounds insecure to me. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Well, given you're in Norway I'd be interested in the difference between what my media tells me and what yours tells you. It's been claimed here that there is growing ill feeling in Norway towards Australia on the basis that we put in the call for help for these people and now we don't want them. I'd be interested ( and not at all corss ) to hear if this is true. I've also read that Norways preferred course is for them to be brought here, and I presumed from the context of the article that the idea was the boat that has them brought them. Nidonesia apparently gave permission for the boat to take the people there, then recinded. I don't see how such permission could be given unless it was asked for. According to the maps in the paper Indonesia is a holler and spit from where they are, which we are not. As to how, surely the issue is the same no matter how they travel ? If they go back or come here they either can come in the boat they are on or they cannot, and if they canot an alternative needs to be found in either direction. I think they should be landed on Christmas ISland for a brief time, to allow the ship to travel on ( it is after all a money making concern losing I believe $30,000 a day as it sits there ), and the Indonesian goverment told to come and pick their people up, or we'll drop them off and send the bill. I seem to remember we won a shooting war against these people not so long ago.... Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Norwegian press (and authorities) is quite negative about the way Australians are handling the situtation. I pesonally find their position reasonable (not just because I'm in Norway). If you get a boat with 460 people (this seems to be a correct number, not 438 as reported earlier), you can't just let them die whoever they are. The captain just refused to depart with all those people aboard. I think developed countries need to work out a set of rules to deal with such cases. This one is not the first, it's not going to be the last. Vagif Abilov COM+/ATL/MFC Developer Oslo, Norway
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Norwegian press (and authorities) is quite negative about the way Australians are handling the situtation. I pesonally find their position reasonable (not just because I'm in Norway). If you get a boat with 460 people (this seems to be a correct number, not 438 as reported earlier), you can't just let them die whoever they are. The captain just refused to depart with all those people aboard. I think developed countries need to work out a set of rules to deal with such cases. This one is not the first, it's not going to be the last. Vagif Abilov COM+/ATL/MFC Developer Oslo, Norway
I find it incredible that it would be percieved as negative that Australian authorities didn't just let them die in their sinking little craft. Our coast guard put out the call that they were going to die, and they were resuced. That is compassion. Letting them into our country is more like pulling our pants down. The core problem to me is Indonesia - these people are nationals of that country and they should take them back. To suggest the Australian position is unreasonable is to advocate throwing them all back into the ocean, which is where they would be if we'd not put out the distress call. Of course our opinions are always coloured by the slant the media decides to put on things, which is why I asked about your media. If they've decided to blame Australia then they will present the facts to lean towards that view, in the same way our media will lean towards blaming Indonesia. At the end of the day it's really the fault of the people who smuggle these folk out in craft that are not up to the journey or the load, and our government for being such a pushover in the past, so they think they have a good chance of staying. We can't change the first, we appear to be making an increased stand on the second. On a compassionate level, I'd love to just let these people in, but if we stand our ground maybe our economy will have less illegal immegrants to deal with in the future. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I always wonder when people come out with these sort of meaningless mental gymnastics if they are trying to convince others or themselves. I realise there are a myriad of reasons why people may decide not to look into the existance of a God, and so never to find out that He is there, but when people put up straw man arguments in order to cut them down, it just sounds insecure to me. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
I posted my message because you asked a proof of the no-existence of God and I thought that Marquis De Sade had an interesting point of view when he wrote that. I agree with you about the useless of such statements because most of them can be easily refuted by another point of view (as history has always shown us) but it's interesting to consider them because that's the way mankind has evolved since the Greek philosophers (although somebody might argue if we've already evolved in any way!) Personally I've an agnostic point of view (not denying nor a asserting anything until I see it) which I think is a good point because you don't have to worry about proving the existence of God. ORi. The most important question is not if God exists, it's if we already exist!
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"God is dead" - Nitche "Nitche is dead" - God. Who do you think is right? ;P I vote pro drink X|
"God is dead","Nitche is dead" thus, God is Nitche. :cool: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Memory leaks is the price we pay \0 01234567890123456789012345678901234
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I find it incredible that it would be percieved as negative that Australian authorities didn't just let them die in their sinking little craft. Our coast guard put out the call that they were going to die, and they were resuced. That is compassion. Letting them into our country is more like pulling our pants down. The core problem to me is Indonesia - these people are nationals of that country and they should take them back. To suggest the Australian position is unreasonable is to advocate throwing them all back into the ocean, which is where they would be if we'd not put out the distress call. Of course our opinions are always coloured by the slant the media decides to put on things, which is why I asked about your media. If they've decided to blame Australia then they will present the facts to lean towards that view, in the same way our media will lean towards blaming Indonesia. At the end of the day it's really the fault of the people who smuggle these folk out in craft that are not up to the journey or the load, and our government for being such a pushover in the past, so they think they have a good chance of staying. We can't change the first, we appear to be making an increased stand on the second. On a compassionate level, I'd love to just let these people in, but if we stand our ground maybe our economy will have less illegal immegrants to deal with in the future. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
"Of course our opinions are always coloured by the slant the media decides to put on things, which is why I asked about your media." Exactly. This is why it was interesting for me to watch this thread. Your media is concentrated on the fact that illegal immigrants came to the country and they shouldn't be let it. Norwegian press writes mostly about the crew, captain and that he can't accept these people on board. If it was Australian boat that came in Norway, the sides would probably swap their positions. I know in some other countries reaction could be much worse. Comments like "let them die, we have enough own problems" wouldn't be unusual. This is a part of enormous difference in living standards. Vagif Abilov COM+/ATL/MFC Developer Oslo, Norway
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I'm interested in knowing how you prove there is a god. Josh josh@that-guy.net
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I find it incredible that it would be percieved as negative that Australian authorities didn't just let them die in their sinking little craft. Our coast guard put out the call that they were going to die, and they were resuced. That is compassion. Letting them into our country is more like pulling our pants down. The core problem to me is Indonesia - these people are nationals of that country and they should take them back. To suggest the Australian position is unreasonable is to advocate throwing them all back into the ocean, which is where they would be if we'd not put out the distress call. Of course our opinions are always coloured by the slant the media decides to put on things, which is why I asked about your media. If they've decided to blame Australia then they will present the facts to lean towards that view, in the same way our media will lean towards blaming Indonesia. At the end of the day it's really the fault of the people who smuggle these folk out in craft that are not up to the journey or the load, and our government for being such a pushover in the past, so they think they have a good chance of staying. We can't change the first, we appear to be making an increased stand on the second. On a compassionate level, I'd love to just let these people in, but if we stand our ground maybe our economy will have less illegal immegrants to deal with in the future. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
According to accepted international maritime law , the master of the ship who happens upon a ship in distress must help them , and take them to the nearest port. The master of the ship has fulfilled his obligations under the law , it is a pity that small minded grubby politicians in Australia are grabbing onto this (with huge popular support I may add) in order to boost their ratings ahead of the forthcomeing elections. You may hate illegal immigrants , you may dispise them and want to repatriate every last one of them back to that caring Taleban regime in Afganistahn , but Australias responsibilities under international maritime law are clear , they are OBLIGED to take these people in and then deal with them. You cannot pick and choose which laws to abide with, once Australia signed up to international maritime law she must abide by it. Take them in , feed them , and send them back if you wish , but fulfil your obligations first ! England is not an island.
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Well, the most obvious is that when someone becomes a Christian they have an experience that is defined in the Bible which includes the ability to pray in a language that God gives. Apart from that, I guess the most obvious thing is people being healed of diseases. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
And where is God today? Did he get bored or hated us? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Memory leaks is the price we pay \0 01234567890123456789012345678901234
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According to accepted international maritime law , the master of the ship who happens upon a ship in distress must help them , and take them to the nearest port. The master of the ship has fulfilled his obligations under the law , it is a pity that small minded grubby politicians in Australia are grabbing onto this (with huge popular support I may add) in order to boost their ratings ahead of the forthcomeing elections. You may hate illegal immigrants , you may dispise them and want to repatriate every last one of them back to that caring Taleban regime in Afganistahn , but Australias responsibilities under international maritime law are clear , they are OBLIGED to take these people in and then deal with them. You cannot pick and choose which laws to abide with, once Australia signed up to international maritime law she must abide by it. Take them in , feed them , and send them back if you wish , but fulfil your obligations first ! England is not an island.
If you get out an atlas you'll see Christmas Island is the ONLY reason they are close to our waters. They are a LOT closer to Indonesia than mainland Australia. Christmas Island cannot support them so they are clearly either making the trip to Indonesia or the much larger trip to Australia. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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If you get out an atlas you'll see Christmas Island is the ONLY reason they are close to our waters. They are a LOT closer to Indonesia than mainland Australia. Christmas Island cannot support them so they are clearly either making the trip to Indonesia or the much larger trip to Australia. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Tough. They are in your waters as this was the nearest port. The law is clear here , the master must make for the nearest port. He did . You have every right not to accept economic migrants and to return them to their point of origin or their home country . You have international obligations to look after these people until such time that you make that decision. I am not saying that economic migration is good and Australia should just welcome them all in. What I am saying is that under the international treaties that Australia is a signatory to then you have a clear obligation to care for these people until such a time that you decide what to do with them. The ship was sinking , the nearest port was in Australian waters. They were attemtping to enter Australia by illegal means . In my opinion, only those with a clear case for claiming asylum should be eligable to stay in Australia , the vast majority sould therefore be returned as quickly as possible. But now , today , Australia has an international obligation to give basic human care to these people. Keep them in compounds if you want , keep them in virtual prison conditions , thats up to you , but you have a duty under law not to leave them on board the ship and to wash your hands of them. This is Australias problem , like it or not.
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Tough. They are in your waters as this was the nearest port. The law is clear here , the master must make for the nearest port. He did . You have every right not to accept economic migrants and to return them to their point of origin or their home country . You have international obligations to look after these people until such time that you make that decision. I am not saying that economic migration is good and Australia should just welcome them all in. What I am saying is that under the international treaties that Australia is a signatory to then you have a clear obligation to care for these people until such a time that you decide what to do with them. The ship was sinking , the nearest port was in Australian waters. They were attemtping to enter Australia by illegal means . In my opinion, only those with a clear case for claiming asylum should be eligable to stay in Australia , the vast majority sould therefore be returned as quickly as possible. But now , today , Australia has an international obligation to give basic human care to these people. Keep them in compounds if you want , keep them in virtual prison conditions , thats up to you , but you have a duty under law not to leave them on board the ship and to wash your hands of them. This is Australias problem , like it or not.
According to John Howard: The MV Tampa was the responsibility of Indonesia and Norway and the ship was obliged under international law to take the passengers to the nearest feasible disembarkation point which was the Indonesian port of Merak, near Jakarta, Mr Howard said. Indonesia has washed its hands of the freighter, saying it would follow Australia's lead. I would agree that Christmas Island is not in any way a 'feasable' port, in that it cannot support this number of people, which leads back to my original comment - we should put them there for a short time so that the Norwegian ship can go about it's business, but then they should be sent back to Indonesia. Give them all a form to fill in if they want to apply for entry into our country, but that's it. Indonesia saying they would follow our lead is ridiculous, and suggesting Christmas Island is a feasible destination or that getting there means entry into Australia proper for ANY length of time is also just out of control. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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For even more fun, turn 1/3 into Jews, turn 1/3 into christians, and the remaining 3rd into islamic. Before you put them all back on the boat, mount cameras in descrete locations, and voila - a new reality show for prime time. The last religious zealot left alive will be forced to move to the remote location of our choice where he he will live for the rest of his life so can't bother anyone else.
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According to John Howard: The MV Tampa was the responsibility of Indonesia and Norway and the ship was obliged under international law to take the passengers to the nearest feasible disembarkation point which was the Indonesian port of Merak, near Jakarta, Mr Howard said. Indonesia has washed its hands of the freighter, saying it would follow Australia's lead. I would agree that Christmas Island is not in any way a 'feasable' port, in that it cannot support this number of people, which leads back to my original comment - we should put them there for a short time so that the Norwegian ship can go about it's business, but then they should be sent back to Indonesia. Give them all a form to fill in if they want to apply for entry into our country, but that's it. Indonesia saying they would follow our lead is ridiculous, and suggesting Christmas Island is a feasible destination or that getting there means entry into Australia proper for ANY length of time is also just out of control. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Feasable disembarkation point ? Politicians weasel words , behind in the polls , an election coming up and an easy target to look good with. So are you now saying that Mr Howard is saying no to these people out of a deep concern that their conditions on Christmas island would be even more wretched than those inside a container on the deck of a freighter. Perhaps he would only be truly happy if they entered an Australian port with sufficient beds free in 5 star hotels ? Surely a stay on an unpleasent rock prior to returning to wherever they came from is exactly the message that he wants to give to people who seek to enter Australia illegally ? The press here is reporting that most of those on board are Afgahns , how is your press reporting it ? If they are Indonesian nationals then it adds a completly different dimension to all this argument .
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Feasable disembarkation point ? Politicians weasel words , behind in the polls , an election coming up and an easy target to look good with. So are you now saying that Mr Howard is saying no to these people out of a deep concern that their conditions on Christmas island would be even more wretched than those inside a container on the deck of a freighter. Perhaps he would only be truly happy if they entered an Australian port with sufficient beds free in 5 star hotels ? Surely a stay on an unpleasent rock prior to returning to wherever they came from is exactly the message that he wants to give to people who seek to enter Australia illegally ? The press here is reporting that most of those on board are Afgahns , how is your press reporting it ? If they are Indonesian nationals then it adds a completly different dimension to all this argument .
Feasable disembarkation point ? Politicians weasel words , behind in the polls , an election coming up and an easy target to look good with. So are you now saying that Mr Howard is saying no to these people out of a deep concern that their conditions on Christmas island would be even more wretched than those inside a container on the deck of a freighter. Perhaps he would only be truly happy if they entered an Australian port with sufficient beds free in 5 star hotels ? Surely a stay on an unpleasent rock prior to returning to wherever they came from is exactly the message that he wants to give to people who seek to enter Australia illegally ?The press here is reporting that most of those on board are Afgahns , how is your press reporting it ? If they are Indonesian nationals then it adds a completly different dimension to all this argument . They are Afghans. The issue with Indonesia is that Australia has apparently tried to enter discussion on the issue of Indonesia being used as a thoroughfare to illegal entry to Australia and Indonesia could care less, to the point of being unwilling to even discuss it. So I can see Mr. Howard wanting to send a message to Indonesia as well as the people engaged in the illegal trade of human cargo. I have tonight read opinion that the law does not appear to be in our favour, but I would still maintain that there is no logical reason for Indonesia to refuse to take these people, if that is where they came from, or for them to be taken to an island that cannot support them for any length of time. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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/Humour Alert Aack! Sending them to NZ is cruel and inhuman!!! Its far more humane to just leave them on the boat!!!! ;-) /End Humour Alert
> /Humour Alert I feel that I must inform you that you're infringing on my trademarked "Humor Hint (tm)". Please cease and desist all *useage of the word "humor" in conjunction with any other word, combinations of words, or variation of the word "humor" thereof that may or may not convey a meaning similar or dissimilar to the original and trademarked phrase. *Usage is defined as conveyance through thought, written words or phrases on any medium, spoken words or phrases, transmission through the air by radio or light waves, graphic illustration, numeric representation, defication, magnetic arrangement of refridgerator magnets, or any means of conveyance not already invented, dreamed up, thought of, discovered, decided upon, or previously mentioned in this document.
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And where is God today? Did he get bored or hated us? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Memory leaks is the price we pay \0 01234567890123456789012345678901234
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I find it hard to believe that an invisible man in the sky is in charge of my life. Likewise, I have trouble accepting as indisputable fact most of the events in the Bible (some most definitely occurred, such as the great flood). I love the Bible - it is full of many guidelines to help you lead a great life. I attribute my own high moral values to having learned many lessons from it while attending a Christian school. Back then, I even asked Jesus into my heart because my teachers told me I should. But I can't make the leap of faith, I can't throw myself whole-heartedly at something as ambiguous as religion. I believe religion was (and still is, I guess) a tool for the oppressed, repressed, exploited masses all throughout the world and all throughout time (hence the many different flavors). It helped them to carry on with their hard, hellish existences. For people who are all alone in the world, religion is the one thing that they can cling to, for the Bible will always be there for them: * Blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted. * Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. * Blessed are they which to hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled. * Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. * Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. * Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God. * Blessed are they which are presecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. * Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. * Rejoice and be exceeding glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. I have taken the lessons of the Bible, applied them to my life, and I am quite happy with the results. I have also "sinned" (according to the Bible) and learned many life and human experiences that it could not possibly teach me, and I am still happy. I don't go to church, I don't pay a 10% tithe, and I don't pray to Him. If someone can show me with proof that their religion is verifiably correct - that their superior being is THE ONE - then I'm in. But until that day, I have all but written off religion. That's just my humble opinion, of course. Nothing else. :| Jon Sagara Sagara Software
Jon, if you are truly interested in determining whether or not you should follow Christ, I will give you a starting point that you can take to whatever conclusion that you choose. Only I urge you to give it serious consideration, and let the solution take precedence in your life. When it comes to becoming a Christian, you first have to realize that we believe that only through acceptance of Christ as your Saviour will you receive enternal life. Only through Christ. You can either take it or leave it; However, you should NOT wait around unsure, or 90% not sure. If you have any thoughts at all that we might, possibly, in a one-in-a-million chance, be right. You need to find out for yourself. Your life depends on it. Be 100% sure either way. Here is one of the best starting points that I can give you, it contains the story of an Atheist journalist seeking historical information about Christ, (yes he is now a Christian ). However, the bibliography will lead you to dozens of research articles that will give you all the evidence you need to make a decision. The book is 'The Case for Christ' by Lee Stobel I pray for unbelievers everyday, but in all honesty you have to take the first step. You've read the Bible, now learn a little about Christ and make the call. BTW, CS Lewis once wrote that (paraphrasing) you can either take Jesus to be God, a Lunatic, or a Liar. To preach the teachings that he did to Jews would be to endanger their souls. Therefore, if he was not God, he was either insane or purposely leading people away from their faith. So it is impossible to take the believe that he just a 'good moral teacher.' Let me know what you find. God be with you and all other seekers of the truth. And no, my sig is not contradictory to my beliefs. When religion and politics help drive the same cart, they tend to drive faster and faster until it is too late to stop when they see the cliff ahead -- Frank Herbert.
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Prayer doesn't work like you ask for something you get it. You ask for God's will to be done. So why bother praying at all? If you can't influence "God's will" by praying to him to get what you want, what is the use? If it's going to happen, it's going to happen, right? Jon Sagara Sagara Software
Not at all. The Bible state clearly "For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." Matthew 7:7-9 but also "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?" Matthew 7:8-10 The idea is that God intends to impart to us His perfect will for our lives, but only if we ask Him. Now that is not to say, that what we think is a perfect thing for us really is. When a Christian dies he is taken to our Lord. So a prayerful Christian who dies of a heart attack or some disease is not necessarily such an answer. Which is why most Christian prayers concerning sickness are two-fold. Heal if it is in your will, or grant us the understanding that will allow even a death to be a testament to God. When religion and politics help drive the same cart, they tend to drive faster and faster until it is too late to stop when they see the cliff ahead -- Frank Herbert.