Worldometer
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Before banning things, consider the unintended consequences that emerged during Prohibition in the US. But politicians learn nothing, because the same consequences are still here thanks to the War on Drugs. - rise of black markets that fund large-scale organized crime - turf wars between crime syndicates - poor quality products that kill users or make them seriously ill - non-violent users imprisoned, ruining their lives - police diverted from pursuing violent criminals - law enforcement corrupted with bribes - justification for an intrusive surveillance state I could probably go on. It's also interesting to note that Prohibition required a constitutional amendment. But the US Constitution has been ignored for a long time now, so they didn't bother with an amendment to ban drugs. Recreational drugs, of course, because pharmaceuticals are a very different story. What's "unnecessary" is also in the eye of the beholder. There are probably some things that you enjoy that are unnecessary, like having a cat when there are no mice or rats around.
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My cat doesn't kill people (while I'm awake) :D Of course what you say is true. But isn't it weird that we're all panicking over COVID-19 while tobacco kills 7 million people every year? No one says I'll have a COVID-19 virus please, but at the same time we smoke a pack a day. I mean, how hard is it to not start smoking? (apparently pretty difficult...) If people were as panicky about smoking as they were about COVID-19, smoking would be banned within weeks with some smoking license or free nicotine gum or whatever for those already addicted. It's not about the unnecessity of things, but about the dangers.
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Migrating Applications to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
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Would it be considered politics, hence inappropriate for the Lounge, if I quote from the table that in my country, Norway, right now has suffered 182 corona deaths, 34 deaths/1M pop (rank 32 if you sort it on that column), and have made 145,279 tests, 26,798 tests/1M pop (rank 16 if you sort it on that column)? Or would that simply be quoting (presumed) medical facts?
Member 7989122 wrote:
in my country, Norway,
How about adjusting the home country in your profile to match 'your country' ?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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1,539,153 Deaths caused by smoking this year 770,064 Deaths caused by alcohol this year 1,692,170,966 Overweight people in the world 755,020,768 Obese people in the world Three very unnecessary products, tobacco, alcohol and fast food, take more lives than COVID-19 ever will. When will they be banned? When are we shutting down the economy for those? I know, the US already tried that with alcohol, but that's about a 100 years ago (not that I think it would be successful now). Basically, what we're saying is that 177,000 deaths from COVID-19 is a real crisis, but 1,539,153 deaths from smoking (that's more than eight times as many) is fine. The current measures will result in an economic crisis of proportions that we haven't seen before. The 2008 crisis alone took more lives than COVID-19. I guess more deaths is a fair price to save fewer lives. I'm just a bit confused by the math of it all :confused: Of course all of this is less about numbers than it is about "how we feel".
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Migrating Applications to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
Sander Rossel wrote:
I'm just a bit confused by the math of it all :confused:
How dare you bring logic to an emotional situation. :mad:
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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Sander Rossel wrote:
I'm just a bit confused by the math of it all :confused:
How dare you bring logic to an emotional situation. :mad:
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
I'm not sure whether you're serious or not, but I hope, against better knowing, that our great leaders use some form of logic in their decision making :laugh:
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Migrating Applications to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
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I'm not sure whether you're serious or not, but I hope, against better knowing, that our great leaders use some form of logic in their decision making :laugh:
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Migrating Applications to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
Sander Rossel wrote:
I'm not sure whether you're serious or not,
Just being silly.
Sander Rossel wrote:
great leaders use some form of logic in their decision making
The problem is that nobody really knows enough about this virus. But everyone is too scared to be wrong so they are following everyone else and shutting everything down. Not sure if that is logical or not.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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1,539,153 Deaths caused by smoking this year 770,064 Deaths caused by alcohol this year 1,692,170,966 Overweight people in the world 755,020,768 Obese people in the world Three very unnecessary products, tobacco, alcohol and fast food, take more lives than COVID-19 ever will. When will they be banned? When are we shutting down the economy for those? I know, the US already tried that with alcohol, but that's about a 100 years ago (not that I think it would be successful now). Basically, what we're saying is that 177,000 deaths from COVID-19 is a real crisis, but 1,539,153 deaths from smoking (that's more than eight times as many) is fine. The current measures will result in an economic crisis of proportions that we haven't seen before. The 2008 crisis alone took more lives than COVID-19. I guess more deaths is a fair price to save fewer lives. I'm just a bit confused by the math of it all :confused: Of course all of this is less about numbers than it is about "how we feel".
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Migrating Applications to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
You have lots of data but the use you put the to is basically false logic. Difference one - screamingly loud: For the most part, the items on your list are not contageous. I won't become obese because I'm next to a two-legged whale. (As for smoking, in the US (at least), my particular state has made it pretty difficult for smokers to smoke anywhere but out in the street. The second-hand-smoke is, in fact, "treated" - and there is consequential expense. For alcohol - I mainly would need to worry about drunk driving: unlike regular accidents, drunk driving is prosecuted as vehicular homicide and you can get prison time. There are sobriety check points at certain times of the year (for drivers) and any driver must submit to alcohol testing (if driving) as a condition of getting their license (refusal can be criminal). ) Difference Two: the basic compliment of one, above - transmission from person to person. You only need to be near them - or near where they were - and you may get a death sentence for it. Naturally, there is a subset of mentality that puts profits above lives. Indeed, smoking is still legal as is growing tobacco, so, your loving logic, about the damage to business, has a precedent. A rather sick one. Maybe if tobacco farmers had a red line tattooed on their forehead for each death they caused, they'd think differently of it. More likely, they'd grow bangs.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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You want the Math? OK, paper napkin time... There are 7.7 billion people in the world. Covid-19 has a fatality rate of somewhere between 5% and 0.1%. If 70% of people get it (the percentage estimated for 'herd immunity') then 5.39 people will catch it. 5% of 5.39 is 0.2695 billion or 269.5 million. 0.1% of 5.39 is .00539 or 5.39 million. I would say the actual fatality rate is likely to be between 1% and 0.5%, so we are talking between 25 and 50 million lives. That is assuming all of the critical cases get critical care. If critical cases do not get critical care then the fatality rate among them is 100%, otherwise it is between 10% and 20%. This means that if the health care system gets overrun you can multiply the death toll by 5-10, giving between 125 and 500 million lives.
Fueled By Caffeine wrote:
If critical cases do not get critical care then the fatality rate among them is 100%, otherwise it is between 10% and 20%.
That does not seem to be entirely correct. Early Data on Intubated COVID-19 Patients Reveals Severe Mortality | RT[^] (RTMagazine is not Russia Today, It's Respiratory Technology Magazine) 80% NYC COVID-19 ventilator patients die, doctors want to stop using - Business Insider[^] https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/928605[^]
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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Member 7989122 wrote:
in my country, Norway,
How about adjusting the home country in your profile to match 'your country' ?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
I have answered to that multiple times: CP is capable of handling an unspecified nick, it makes no assumptions. It shouldn't be more difficult to handle an unspecified country. I have neither specified a nick nor a country - CP itself decided to locate me in one specific country. My reason for not using a name/nick is because I want the reader to focus on what I am saying, not on who is saying it. Not on which country the writer comes from, but what he is saying. If my country has any significance to what I am saying, I mention it. I am sure that if CP had a country value of "unspecified", you wouldn't be bothered by me stating my country whenever relevant. What causes problems is that CP assumes USA as the country until explicitly changed. The problem is with CP, not with me.
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I have answered to that multiple times: CP is capable of handling an unspecified nick, it makes no assumptions. It shouldn't be more difficult to handle an unspecified country. I have neither specified a nick nor a country - CP itself decided to locate me in one specific country. My reason for not using a name/nick is because I want the reader to focus on what I am saying, not on who is saying it. Not on which country the writer comes from, but what he is saying. If my country has any significance to what I am saying, I mention it. I am sure that if CP had a country value of "unspecified", you wouldn't be bothered by me stating my country whenever relevant. What causes problems is that CP assumes USA as the country until explicitly changed. The problem is with CP, not with me.
You sort of get it. Just - since you've done this before - you clearly identify as Norwegian - and have no problem using it when it suit you. As it is, however, when it doesn't suit you, your identified as USA. Since your ID is just a number, it's not automatically recognized as "you". so, unless you're embarrassed about it, update your profile. The same can be said for a nick-name. The lack of either, and the unwillingness to do anything about it when it being "spun" by you into an asset of "don't look at me - look at what I post" excuse just doesn't cut it. I doubt, seriously, if even you ever believed that. Unless - of course - you are ashamed of being Norwegian.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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1,539,153 Deaths caused by smoking this year 770,064 Deaths caused by alcohol this year 1,692,170,966 Overweight people in the world 755,020,768 Obese people in the world Three very unnecessary products, tobacco, alcohol and fast food, take more lives than COVID-19 ever will. When will they be banned? When are we shutting down the economy for those? I know, the US already tried that with alcohol, but that's about a 100 years ago (not that I think it would be successful now). Basically, what we're saying is that 177,000 deaths from COVID-19 is a real crisis, but 1,539,153 deaths from smoking (that's more than eight times as many) is fine. The current measures will result in an economic crisis of proportions that we haven't seen before. The 2008 crisis alone took more lives than COVID-19. I guess more deaths is a fair price to save fewer lives. I'm just a bit confused by the math of it all :confused: Of course all of this is less about numbers than it is about "how we feel".
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Migrating Applications to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
Let's add the forgotten pandemic to that. HIV. In 2018 an approximated 770 000 people died from HIV. Making a total of 32 million, also an approximation. Let's also add some inconvenient truths.
- "Flattening the curve" doesn't mean less people get sick, only that we spread it over a longer time
- There is at the moment no treatment for Covid-19. There might be in the future.
- We're all going to die, the question is only from what and when.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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You have lots of data but the use you put the to is basically false logic. Difference one - screamingly loud: For the most part, the items on your list are not contageous. I won't become obese because I'm next to a two-legged whale. (As for smoking, in the US (at least), my particular state has made it pretty difficult for smokers to smoke anywhere but out in the street. The second-hand-smoke is, in fact, "treated" - and there is consequential expense. For alcohol - I mainly would need to worry about drunk driving: unlike regular accidents, drunk driving is prosecuted as vehicular homicide and you can get prison time. There are sobriety check points at certain times of the year (for drivers) and any driver must submit to alcohol testing (if driving) as a condition of getting their license (refusal can be criminal). ) Difference Two: the basic compliment of one, above - transmission from person to person. You only need to be near them - or near where they were - and you may get a death sentence for it. Naturally, there is a subset of mentality that puts profits above lives. Indeed, smoking is still legal as is growing tobacco, so, your loving logic, about the damage to business, has a precedent. A rather sick one. Maybe if tobacco farmers had a red line tattooed on their forehead for each death they caused, they'd think differently of it. More likely, they'd grow bangs.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
I think they would run out of forehead.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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Sander Rossel wrote:
I'm not sure whether you're serious or not,
Just being silly.
Sander Rossel wrote:
great leaders use some form of logic in their decision making
The problem is that nobody really knows enough about this virus. But everyone is too scared to be wrong so they are following everyone else and shutting everything down. Not sure if that is logical or not.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
ZurdoDev wrote:
The problem is that nobody really knows enough about this virus. But everyone is too scared to be wrong so they are following everyone else and shutting everything down.
This! The question is when the medicine is worse than the cure? I don't know, but the problem seems to be that neither does anyone else.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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You have lots of data but the use you put the to is basically false logic. Difference one - screamingly loud: For the most part, the items on your list are not contageous. I won't become obese because I'm next to a two-legged whale. (As for smoking, in the US (at least), my particular state has made it pretty difficult for smokers to smoke anywhere but out in the street. The second-hand-smoke is, in fact, "treated" - and there is consequential expense. For alcohol - I mainly would need to worry about drunk driving: unlike regular accidents, drunk driving is prosecuted as vehicular homicide and you can get prison time. There are sobriety check points at certain times of the year (for drivers) and any driver must submit to alcohol testing (if driving) as a condition of getting their license (refusal can be criminal). ) Difference Two: the basic compliment of one, above - transmission from person to person. You only need to be near them - or near where they were - and you may get a death sentence for it. Naturally, there is a subset of mentality that puts profits above lives. Indeed, smoking is still legal as is growing tobacco, so, your loving logic, about the damage to business, has a precedent. A rather sick one. Maybe if tobacco farmers had a red line tattooed on their forehead for each death they caused, they'd think differently of it. More likely, they'd grow bangs.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
My premise was "we don't want people to die", but I now see how naive that is :laugh: It should've been "I don't want to die" or "I don't want to have the risk of dying" and in that case everything makes a lot more sense. That said, chances of me personally dying of COVID-19 are pretty slim, so I'd prefer everything to be as it was and risk getting some mild flu symptoms. That goes for lots of people though, so maybe we're something in between.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
unlike regular accidents, drunk driving is prosecuted as vehicular homicide and you can get prison time.
That won't bring back the deceased though, and the relatives will be sentenced for life :sigh:
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
I won't become obese because I'm next to a two-legged whale.
:laugh:
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
More likely, they'd grow bangs.
:laugh:
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Migrating Applications to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
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Let's add the forgotten pandemic to that. HIV. In 2018 an approximated 770 000 people died from HIV. Making a total of 32 million, also an approximation. Let's also add some inconvenient truths.
- "Flattening the curve" doesn't mean less people get sick, only that we spread it over a longer time
- There is at the moment no treatment for Covid-19. There might be in the future.
- We're all going to die, the question is only from what and when.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
Jörgen Andersson wrote:
Let's add the forgotten pandemic to that. HIV.
How about ebola? Although that was magically cured weeks after it came to western countries :~ Over 11,000 people died in West Africa between 2014 and 2016. Meanwhile, it has recently killed over 2000 people in Congo and counting.
Jörgen Andersson wrote:
We're all going to die, the question is only from what and when.
We're all dying from the STD called birth, it's a slow and painful process :laugh:
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Migrating Applications to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
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Jörgen Andersson wrote:
Let's add the forgotten pandemic to that. HIV.
How about ebola? Although that was magically cured weeks after it came to western countries :~ Over 11,000 people died in West Africa between 2014 and 2016. Meanwhile, it has recently killed over 2000 people in Congo and counting.
Jörgen Andersson wrote:
We're all going to die, the question is only from what and when.
We're all dying from the STD called birth, it's a slow and painful process :laugh:
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Migrating Applications to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
Sander Rossel wrote:
t's a slow and painful process
What do you know? I'm having back pains that are older than you.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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Sander Rossel wrote:
t's a slow and painful process
What do you know? I'm having back pains that are older than you.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
Are we going to discuss physical ailments like a bunch of old dudes? :laugh: Sorry, I'm slightly to young for that ;)
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Migrating Applications to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
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Sander Rossel wrote:
I'm not sure whether you're serious or not,
Just being silly.
Sander Rossel wrote:
great leaders use some form of logic in their decision making
The problem is that nobody really knows enough about this virus. But everyone is too scared to be wrong so they are following everyone else and shutting everything down. Not sure if that is logical or not.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
ZurdoDev wrote:
The problem is that nobody really knows enough about this virus
Facts: • Those who suffer symptoms, whether mild or severe, don't show them for up to a week. • The vast majority of people infected don't even know they've had it. • Because it persists for so long on surfaces (and even in the air) it spreads like wildfire if the infection is mild, severe, or even asymptomatic. • The heavy-handed approach, used in Asian countries, was hugely unpleasant for all concerned, but resulted in fewer people dying than are dying in the West. • It results in a form of pneumonia that is particularly nasty because you don't realise that your lungs are filling with phlegm until they're almost full (so, by the time you're struggling for breath, it's almost too late -- and hospital staff are kinda busy). So we know plenty. Shelter in place, wear masks outside, and stay as far away from people you don't live with as possible. Doing otherwise is tantamount to murder, and, IMO, should be punished accordingly. Anyone saying anything else (except the IMO bit, of course) is doing so for political reasons, or because of either stupidity or arrogance.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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ZurdoDev wrote:
The problem is that nobody really knows enough about this virus
Facts: • Those who suffer symptoms, whether mild or severe, don't show them for up to a week. • The vast majority of people infected don't even know they've had it. • Because it persists for so long on surfaces (and even in the air) it spreads like wildfire if the infection is mild, severe, or even asymptomatic. • The heavy-handed approach, used in Asian countries, was hugely unpleasant for all concerned, but resulted in fewer people dying than are dying in the West. • It results in a form of pneumonia that is particularly nasty because you don't realise that your lungs are filling with phlegm until they're almost full (so, by the time you're struggling for breath, it's almost too late -- and hospital staff are kinda busy). So we know plenty. Shelter in place, wear masks outside, and stay as far away from people you don't live with as possible. Doing otherwise is tantamount to murder, and, IMO, should be punished accordingly. Anyone saying anything else (except the IMO bit, of course) is doing so for political reasons, or because of either stupidity or arrogance.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark_Wallace wrote:
The vast majority of people infected don't even know they've had it.
You can't measure that. :laugh:
Mark_Wallace wrote:
Because it persists for so long on surfaces (and even in the air)
Not a fact according to other articles (therefore proving my point that no one really knows)
Mark_Wallace wrote:
resulted in fewer people dying than are dying in the West.
Apples and oranges, but also depends on what source you read. Plenty of articles indicate that China has massively under-reported their numbers.
Mark_Wallace wrote:
Doing otherwise is tantamount to murder,
Drama much? :wtf:
Mark_Wallace wrote:
Anyone saying anything else (except the IMO bit, of course) is doing so for political reasons, or because of either stupidity or arrogance.
And there it is. "Anyone who disagrees with me is either stupid or arrogant." That is called bigotry. One thing is for sure, this "pandemic" has magnified the true colors of many people and exposed the bigotry many have. Your personality is one of panic and blind belief of the media. I bid you good luck in life. Wow!
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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1,539,153 Deaths caused by smoking this year 770,064 Deaths caused by alcohol this year 1,692,170,966 Overweight people in the world 755,020,768 Obese people in the world Three very unnecessary products, tobacco, alcohol and fast food, take more lives than COVID-19 ever will. When will they be banned? When are we shutting down the economy for those? I know, the US already tried that with alcohol, but that's about a 100 years ago (not that I think it would be successful now). Basically, what we're saying is that 177,000 deaths from COVID-19 is a real crisis, but 1,539,153 deaths from smoking (that's more than eight times as many) is fine. The current measures will result in an economic crisis of proportions that we haven't seen before. The 2008 crisis alone took more lives than COVID-19. I guess more deaths is a fair price to save fewer lives. I'm just a bit confused by the math of it all :confused: Of course all of this is less about numbers than it is about "how we feel".
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Migrating Applications to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
Smoking, drinking, and eating cardboard fast food are choices -- you get what you ask for. I don't recall being given a choice about covid-19 -- for which there is no cure, and it won't go away until there is one, which could take a couple of years.
Sander Rossel wrote:
177,000 deaths from COVID-19
Times eight is what? And note that eight is a conservative estimate, given that it took a couple of months for it to gain a foothold in the entire world.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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My cat doesn't kill people (while I'm awake) :D Of course what you say is true. But isn't it weird that we're all panicking over COVID-19 while tobacco kills 7 million people every year? No one says I'll have a COVID-19 virus please, but at the same time we smoke a pack a day. I mean, how hard is it to not start smoking? (apparently pretty difficult...) If people were as panicky about smoking as they were about COVID-19, smoking would be banned within weeks with some smoking license or free nicotine gum or whatever for those already addicted. It's not about the unnecessity of things, but about the dangers.
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Migrating Applications to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
We don't smoke a pack a day. Individuals choose whether to smoke. Each person weighs the risk of activities in which they can engage. If social distancing wasn't mandated, some people would practice it to be safer, and others wouldn't. There would be businesses that enforced it and others that didn't. For the most part, governments have decided to enforce a one-size-fits-all policy, which is quite typical of what they do. Some people agree with it and others think it's overdone. The trade-off is between saving an unknown number of lives and seriously damaging the economy. Governments don't want to be blamed for deaths and think that money-printing can fix economic downturns, so their choice is unsurprising.
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