Programming languages - fun vs. disciplined
-
My journey through programming was like this: BASIC - boring Assembly - loads and loads of fun and really gnarly to debug and write FORTRAN - the epitome of discipline and the word "fun" doesn't exist at all PASCAL - more fun than FORTRAN C - fun if you like memory leaks and overwriting memory you don't own C++ - fun if you like the problems with C and the discipline of classes and templates SQL - fun when you get it working, inconsistent discipline, and like lying on a bed of needles until you get that cool SQL to work correctly and in the end you still are left wondering why it works and what the performance issues are C# - a good balance between fun and discipline Ruby - fun if you write it yourself, excruciating pain if you have to read someone else's code Python - fun when doing fun projects like working with Single Board Computers Javascript - fun if you write it yourself and are disciplined about it, but beware of murderous impulses when fixing other people's code Prompted from a chat with a coworker who pointed out: nowadays, frameworks and languages are opting for fun. The most fun it is to write in that language the better. And yes, I'm biased, as I love C#.
Latest Articles:
Thread Safe Quantized Temporal Frame Ring BufferI'm little surprised I did not see the Hacker's Jargon's version of fun vs. disciplined Language list. The fun category goes as "Languages Of Choice"(LOC). The disciplined category goes as "bondage-and-discipline"(B&D). They included C, Perl, Python, Java and LISP for LOC and Pascal, Ada, APL, or Prolog for B&D. And worst than B&D is COBOL. A love for Fortran and Assembler shows that one is a real programmer. But for me, APL was fun and my first language. The only interesting thing about PASCAL was that it introduced me to Data Structures. The Hackers associate APL with B&D. There's no discipline at all. You can't read it. You throw cryptic symbols together until you see the results you want then store it in a user defined function. I would put LISP in the B&D category and then say they wanted it to be fun and created JavaScript. I do mostly C++ so I have not done much with C#. But if you like C# the most, that's cool.
-
BASIC with line numbers. not the real thing. fun because i was a kid. 6502 assembly, the best Turbo Pascal. logical. everything falls into it's place easy. you don't forget it. it was two languages, Pascal and Assembly (x86) that you could mix at will. that tripled fun. C++, the silver bullet. build your own first class data types. copy constructors, virtual destructors, assignment overloading... all very very fun. about year 2k i started to notice languages as a whole package. the language and the people who use it. most C++ users were heavy into MFC and they would shrug at any mention of WPARAM and the message loop. most Pascal programmers start to talk about linked lists when you mention pointers. dude? i switched to C. more fun than Pascal, but i long for less strict data typing. some languages i didn't chose, i had to work with. VB was OK, PHP does the job, but i only like JavaScript (without the DOM). JavaScript is fun, especially everything that is different than Java. Java is/was the epitome of chauvinism. that is not fun. that is lame. Lua is fun. i must learn Perl, that should be super fun. all the languages that don't have class and morale.
sickfile wrote:
most C++ users were heavy into MFC and they would shrug at any mention of WPARAM and the message loop
Aaah, good'ol'times !
-
My journey through programming was like this: BASIC - boring Assembly - loads and loads of fun and really gnarly to debug and write FORTRAN - the epitome of discipline and the word "fun" doesn't exist at all PASCAL - more fun than FORTRAN C - fun if you like memory leaks and overwriting memory you don't own C++ - fun if you like the problems with C and the discipline of classes and templates SQL - fun when you get it working, inconsistent discipline, and like lying on a bed of needles until you get that cool SQL to work correctly and in the end you still are left wondering why it works and what the performance issues are C# - a good balance between fun and discipline Ruby - fun if you write it yourself, excruciating pain if you have to read someone else's code Python - fun when doing fun projects like working with Single Board Computers Javascript - fun if you write it yourself and are disciplined about it, but beware of murderous impulses when fixing other people's code Prompted from a chat with a coworker who pointed out: nowadays, frameworks and languages are opting for fun. The most fun it is to write in that language the better. And yes, I'm biased, as I love C#.
Latest Articles:
Thread Safe Quantized Temporal Frame Ring BufferIn de 60-ies there was of course Algol 60, I did a numerical analysis course (later on I did a compiler on/for the PDP-11, and much later on a compiler Algol -> C) Algol 60 never was popular, but according to people like Hoare and Dijkstra: "Algol 60 is a great improvement to its successors". The language was the basis for many other languages, of course Simula and Algol 68, but also Pascal. In the early 70-ies there was BCPL (i.e. Basic CPL), an - at that time - a quite popular systems implementation language (the 70-ies were the years of an explosion of languages) Of course, BCPL was the grandfather of C. BCPL was portable, we ported it to a PDP-9 and a Philips P860, and while not very popular there days, it still exists. Personally, I learned programming in assembler on a PDP-8 and PDP-9, by the time we started using PDP-11's we first had BCPL and later - with the arrival of Unix - the C language. My favorite language was Ada, at least the 83 and 95 versions. The language was based on the though that the readability of programs was/is essential: it still is. The language I am using is a (subset of) C++, the reason is simple: it is available on Linux and there are decent cross compilation facilities for Windows. For the applications I write, I need some performance, while in a sense it is real time processing (i.e. SDR applications), it is not hard real time. C++, when used with caution is a decent language, with good compilers, both on Linux x86/64, Windows and RPI type systems just my 2 cts
-
I was very fond of Delphi but was very pleased when C# first appeared that it looked like Java but smelled like C#. I still go to Delphi if I want a simple Win32 GUI program.
The company I worked for pre-covid induced trip to Pub, had a whole load of applications in Delphi, they had to update so went on a quest to find an upto date compiler, last I saw was 2006 there appears to be more upto version... any clues where and how? :confused:
-
The company I worked for pre-covid induced trip to Pub, had a whole load of applications in Delphi, they had to update so went on a quest to find an upto date compiler, last I saw was 2006 there appears to be more upto version... any clues where and how? :confused:
-
My journey through programming was like this: BASIC - boring Assembly - loads and loads of fun and really gnarly to debug and write FORTRAN - the epitome of discipline and the word "fun" doesn't exist at all PASCAL - more fun than FORTRAN C - fun if you like memory leaks and overwriting memory you don't own C++ - fun if you like the problems with C and the discipline of classes and templates SQL - fun when you get it working, inconsistent discipline, and like lying on a bed of needles until you get that cool SQL to work correctly and in the end you still are left wondering why it works and what the performance issues are C# - a good balance between fun and discipline Ruby - fun if you write it yourself, excruciating pain if you have to read someone else's code Python - fun when doing fun projects like working with Single Board Computers Javascript - fun if you write it yourself and are disciplined about it, but beware of murderous impulses when fixing other people's code Prompted from a chat with a coworker who pointed out: nowadays, frameworks and languages are opting for fun. The most fun it is to write in that language the better. And yes, I'm biased, as I love C#.
Latest Articles:
Thread Safe Quantized Temporal Frame Ring Buffer -
C# became my language of choice fairly early in its career; by version 2.0 certainly; version 3.0 made it my firm favourite. I first started to find FORTRAN "fun" when Fortran-77 came along. Then the fun was driving my tyrannical boss crazy by using every new feature (especially the ones he didn't understand). He was a badly, self-taught programmer with a huge ego and no actual skill - hs favourite command was the Computed GOTO! I have been through at least a dozen other languages between then (40+ years ago) and now and C# is the definite winner - although I worry about some of the new changes coming with v9.0.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
In summer of 2000, I printed the C# language spec on the day of the first public CTP release, went to a coffee shop and read all of it. I then got giddy as a guy stuck between VN6 and Java and knew salvation had come.
-
Depending on the defintion of "fun" and "disciplined", a language can be both. C, for example, demands heaps and heaps of discipline from the programmer while providing hardly any discipline by itself (undefined behaviour is a´n ugly can of worms as are forward declarations at a time where my smartwatch has more RAM, than a supercomputer in the 70s). Then there's the difference between discipline for the sake of discipline, or discipline because it makes sense. "Do stuff this way because that's the way stuff is done" vs. "do stuff that way because that way ensures some basic code quality/debuggability". The latter kind of discipline strongly correlates with fun, in my mind anyway. I strongly agree on C#, it's IMHO a good example of fun discipline. Some parts still don't make sense (when I HAVE to use a goto to fall through a case, why not throw break out of the window entirely and have cases NOT FALL THROUGH at all?) but it's mostly a well-structured language. As is C++, by the way. Assuming you stick to the more modern parts of it. C++12 is somewhat fun. C++17 is sometimes cleaner, than non-preview C# as of now. Now if there were C++-compilers throwing errors or at least warnings on decades-old idioms, that would be nice. Python, for me anyway, lost it's fun appeal quickly when working with larger code bases. The total lack of structure (where's the entry point?) is fun for small projects, but becomes a chore of discipline for anything large.
Member 9167057 wrote:
if there were C++-compilers throwing errors or at least warnings on decades-old idioms, that would be nice
I know it's not a compiler, but [clang-tidy, with its `modernize-*` warning set, will do that (and will also make fixes if you let it)](https://www.kdab.com/clang-tidy-part-1-modernize-source-code-using-c11c14/).
Java, Basic, who cares - it's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy cr*p
-
My journey through programming was like this: BASIC - boring Assembly - loads and loads of fun and really gnarly to debug and write FORTRAN - the epitome of discipline and the word "fun" doesn't exist at all PASCAL - more fun than FORTRAN C - fun if you like memory leaks and overwriting memory you don't own C++ - fun if you like the problems with C and the discipline of classes and templates SQL - fun when you get it working, inconsistent discipline, and like lying on a bed of needles until you get that cool SQL to work correctly and in the end you still are left wondering why it works and what the performance issues are C# - a good balance between fun and discipline Ruby - fun if you write it yourself, excruciating pain if you have to read someone else's code Python - fun when doing fun projects like working with Single Board Computers Javascript - fun if you write it yourself and are disciplined about it, but beware of murderous impulses when fixing other people's code Prompted from a chat with a coworker who pointed out: nowadays, frameworks and languages are opting for fun. The most fun it is to write in that language the better. And yes, I'm biased, as I love C#.
Latest Articles:
Thread Safe Quantized Temporal Frame Ring BufferI see no one mentioned 1401 and 7010 Autocoder. That was fun: you set a "word mark" (WM) in memory to terminate a "move"; forget the WM, and the move would keep moving until it wiped out everything before crashing. Then you got disciplined.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
-
My journey through programming was like this: BASIC - boring Assembly - loads and loads of fun and really gnarly to debug and write FORTRAN - the epitome of discipline and the word "fun" doesn't exist at all PASCAL - more fun than FORTRAN C - fun if you like memory leaks and overwriting memory you don't own C++ - fun if you like the problems with C and the discipline of classes and templates SQL - fun when you get it working, inconsistent discipline, and like lying on a bed of needles until you get that cool SQL to work correctly and in the end you still are left wondering why it works and what the performance issues are C# - a good balance between fun and discipline Ruby - fun if you write it yourself, excruciating pain if you have to read someone else's code Python - fun when doing fun projects like working with Single Board Computers Javascript - fun if you write it yourself and are disciplined about it, but beware of murderous impulses when fixing other people's code Prompted from a chat with a coworker who pointed out: nowadays, frameworks and languages are opting for fun. The most fun it is to write in that language the better. And yes, I'm biased, as I love C#.
Latest Articles:
Thread Safe Quantized Temporal Frame Ring BufferFORTRAN VAX Macro Assembler C MS Quick C was great fun; Watcom C, less so C++ : VS enters the picture Foxpro tables become SQL - distraction: Visual FoxPro - I felt dirty for years - "directed" to use it C# Seems like a sawed off version of C++ (pointers? namespaces ? enumerations? - Don't worry about it) HTML->CSS->JavaScript->php (with SQL, MySQL). Now as for fun, aside from that foul distraction, all of it. I didn't even do this for a living until somewhere around C++ . C had it all: high level enough for things like printing and connection; low level enough where, if I want, I could through in an asm { mov . . .} directive and do absolutely anything. ROM BIOS were great friends of mine. Routine stuff is boring in any language. Solving puzzles - it's like an open-ended puzzle book. And sometimes I remember to be grateful that they pay me to do it.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
My journey through programming was like this: BASIC - boring Assembly - loads and loads of fun and really gnarly to debug and write FORTRAN - the epitome of discipline and the word "fun" doesn't exist at all PASCAL - more fun than FORTRAN C - fun if you like memory leaks and overwriting memory you don't own C++ - fun if you like the problems with C and the discipline of classes and templates SQL - fun when you get it working, inconsistent discipline, and like lying on a bed of needles until you get that cool SQL to work correctly and in the end you still are left wondering why it works and what the performance issues are C# - a good balance between fun and discipline Ruby - fun if you write it yourself, excruciating pain if you have to read someone else's code Python - fun when doing fun projects like working with Single Board Computers Javascript - fun if you write it yourself and are disciplined about it, but beware of murderous impulses when fixing other people's code Prompted from a chat with a coworker who pointed out: nowadays, frameworks and languages are opting for fun. The most fun it is to write in that language the better. And yes, I'm biased, as I love C#.
Latest Articles:
Thread Safe Quantized Temporal Frame Ring Buffersame here, I learn JavaScript in college right now. Want to become a pro in the future. I use some help of AssignmentShark service to help me with my JavaScript homework and save time. They helped me to get the highest score in the class.
-
My journey through programming was like this: BASIC - boring Assembly - loads and loads of fun and really gnarly to debug and write FORTRAN - the epitome of discipline and the word "fun" doesn't exist at all PASCAL - more fun than FORTRAN C - fun if you like memory leaks and overwriting memory you don't own C++ - fun if you like the problems with C and the discipline of classes and templates SQL - fun when you get it working, inconsistent discipline, and like lying on a bed of needles until you get that cool SQL to work correctly and in the end you still are left wondering why it works and what the performance issues are C# - a good balance between fun and discipline Ruby - fun if you write it yourself, excruciating pain if you have to read someone else's code Python - fun when doing fun projects like working with Single Board Computers Javascript - fun if you write it yourself and are disciplined about it, but beware of murderous impulses when fixing other people's code Prompted from a chat with a coworker who pointed out: nowadays, frameworks and languages are opting for fun. The most fun it is to write in that language the better. And yes, I'm biased, as I love C#.
Latest Articles:
Thread Safe Quantized Temporal Frame Ring Buffer -
My journey through programming was like this: BASIC - boring Assembly - loads and loads of fun and really gnarly to debug and write FORTRAN - the epitome of discipline and the word "fun" doesn't exist at all PASCAL - more fun than FORTRAN C - fun if you like memory leaks and overwriting memory you don't own C++ - fun if you like the problems with C and the discipline of classes and templates SQL - fun when you get it working, inconsistent discipline, and like lying on a bed of needles until you get that cool SQL to work correctly and in the end you still are left wondering why it works and what the performance issues are C# - a good balance between fun and discipline Ruby - fun if you write it yourself, excruciating pain if you have to read someone else's code Python - fun when doing fun projects like working with Single Board Computers Javascript - fun if you write it yourself and are disciplined about it, but beware of murderous impulses when fixing other people's code Prompted from a chat with a coworker who pointed out: nowadays, frameworks and languages are opting for fun. The most fun it is to write in that language the better. And yes, I'm biased, as I love C#.
Latest Articles:
Thread Safe Quantized Temporal Frame Ring Buffer -
My journey through programming was like this: BASIC - boring Assembly - loads and loads of fun and really gnarly to debug and write FORTRAN - the epitome of discipline and the word "fun" doesn't exist at all PASCAL - more fun than FORTRAN C - fun if you like memory leaks and overwriting memory you don't own C++ - fun if you like the problems with C and the discipline of classes and templates SQL - fun when you get it working, inconsistent discipline, and like lying on a bed of needles until you get that cool SQL to work correctly and in the end you still are left wondering why it works and what the performance issues are C# - a good balance between fun and discipline Ruby - fun if you write it yourself, excruciating pain if you have to read someone else's code Python - fun when doing fun projects like working with Single Board Computers Javascript - fun if you write it yourself and are disciplined about it, but beware of murderous impulses when fixing other people's code Prompted from a chat with a coworker who pointed out: nowadays, frameworks and languages are opting for fun. The most fun it is to write in that language the better. And yes, I'm biased, as I love C#.
Latest Articles:
Thread Safe Quantized Temporal Frame Ring BufferFORTRAN II - Fun and precise, but punching those cards took a lot of time COBOL - the Language From Hell RTN (Register Transfer Notation) - Wonderful fun, but tedious Assembly - extreme fun hpl - really fun, as you can rewrite your code while it's executing HPBASIC - Dull, uninspiring, and easy to get in trouble TurboPascal - the epitome of maintainable code, driven to extinction by C Ada - OMG! ATLAS - makes one nostalgic for Ada C++ - Like C, but lots worse C# - Finally, a decent, fun language again :-D
Will Rogers never met me.
-
My journey through programming was like this: BASIC - boring Assembly - loads and loads of fun and really gnarly to debug and write FORTRAN - the epitome of discipline and the word "fun" doesn't exist at all PASCAL - more fun than FORTRAN C - fun if you like memory leaks and overwriting memory you don't own C++ - fun if you like the problems with C and the discipline of classes and templates SQL - fun when you get it working, inconsistent discipline, and like lying on a bed of needles until you get that cool SQL to work correctly and in the end you still are left wondering why it works and what the performance issues are C# - a good balance between fun and discipline Ruby - fun if you write it yourself, excruciating pain if you have to read someone else's code Python - fun when doing fun projects like working with Single Board Computers Javascript - fun if you write it yourself and are disciplined about it, but beware of murderous impulses when fixing other people's code Prompted from a chat with a coworker who pointed out: nowadays, frameworks and languages are opting for fun. The most fun it is to write in that language the better. And yes, I'm biased, as I love C#.
Latest Articles:
Thread Safe Quantized Temporal Frame Ring Buffer -
The company I worked for pre-covid induced trip to Pub, had a whole load of applications in Delphi, they had to update so went on a quest to find an upto date compiler, last I saw was 2006 there appears to be more upto version... any clues where and how? :confused:
The latest version is Delphi 10.5 (I am still on 10.3). Check Embarcadero's website. Community (free) edition is downloadable.
-
Member 9167057 wrote:
if there were C++-compilers throwing errors or at least warnings on decades-old idioms, that would be nice
I know it's not a compiler, but [clang-tidy, with its `modernize-*` warning set, will do that (and will also make fixes if you let it)](https://www.kdab.com/clang-tidy-part-1-modernize-source-code-using-c11c14/).
Java, Basic, who cares - it's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy cr*p
Doing a project in C++ in the meanwhile, clang-tidy can optionally be used from Visual Studio. I use it in release builds as it increased the build time by about an order of magnitude from compiling without it (and precompiled headers) and it helped me in a couple places already. Thank you!