These languages are a bundle of nope.
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Has its uses.
Quote:
Will it run anywhere my current code won't?
That's what Linus a
Cprogrammer says to aC++one."In testa che avete, Signor di Ceprano?" -- Rigoletto
CPallini wrote:
That's what Linus a
Cprogrammer says to aC++one.Funny you should say that, because as a C++ developer that's exactly what I ask C developers who tell me C is better somehow.
Real programmers use butterflies
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I used to hate Python. But working in a company you cannot always choose, and... After 3 months I began to several upsides of the language. We do have strong linters, and good peer-review conventions and unit-testing. The strongest upside of Python is the community which results in useful and extremely consistent 3rd party libraries. Something you cannot say of C++. Still when projects grow large, Python, being non-compiled, becomes hard to maintain and nasty bugs can occur.
"If we don't change direction, we'll end up where we're going"
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I don't disagree that assembly is fun. It just isn't conducive to me keeping up good coding habits. I'm not sure how much we actually disagree with there. And I'm not so worried, except for the fact that I don't want to get too stuck by being stubborn. We seem to agree for the most part, at least conceptually, although we have slightly different views on some languages. I don't think VB.NET is much better than BASIC. It might be worse, as it's no longer beginners, but it still encourages crappy coding. I should add with regard to assembly: I've found it's more fun (in terms of the challenge) to get C++ to generate the assembly I want (or better)
Real programmers use butterflies
honey the codewitch wrote:
I don't think VB.NET is much better than BASIC. It might be worse, as it's no longer beginners, but it still encourages crappy coding.
While VB.Net has some serious syntactic shortcomings when it comes to Lambda functions and LinQ, apply the two statements below eliminates all the crappy coding relating to variable and type declarations.
Option Strict On
Option Explicit OnI find the C# "var" variable declaration to be an abomination as it allows the programmer to not understand data types they're using. I also find the use of { and } for code blocking to be a threat to clean coding. In fact, the 2003 power outage that impacted New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Ontario was the direct result of an erroneously placed }. This type of code bug is much harder to miss in VB because the language uses keywords to start and end code blocks.
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There are languages I refuse to use for fear of picking up bad habits. Perl is one. Python* is another. And then there's BASIC :~ I'd add assembly to the list except there are unfortunately, rare instances where I need it. *Python isn't as bad an offender as the others, but its array handling and use of significant whitespace are deal breakers for me. I don't like to holy roll. Sure I have my favorite languages (C++, C#) and languages I hate but grudgingly accept (like Javascript), and ones that just aren't my cup of tea but I'll use them if I must (Java). Still, I try to be fair, and I believe that most languages have their niche. Even Perl, if I'm being generous, but that doesn't mean I'll use it and it doesn't mean I don't think there should be a better alternative. The ones I listed up top though - Nope. Just no. I will not use them, except perhaps to port something away from them. I have to have some sort of standards. Sometimes I wonder if I'm being overly picky though.
Real programmers use butterflies
honey the codewitch wrote:
Python isn't as bad an offender as the others, but its array handling and use of significant whitespace are deal breakers for me.
I hate YAML for the same reason.
I’ve given up trying to be calm. However, I am open to feeling slightly less agitated.
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I once ate a Python. It tasted a bit like Chicken. Quite nice.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Sadly, the one time I ate rattlesnake all I could taste was the breading. Where's the point in that? :confused:
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There are languages I refuse to use for fear of picking up bad habits. Perl is one. Python* is another. And then there's BASIC :~ I'd add assembly to the list except there are unfortunately, rare instances where I need it. *Python isn't as bad an offender as the others, but its array handling and use of significant whitespace are deal breakers for me. I don't like to holy roll. Sure I have my favorite languages (C++, C#) and languages I hate but grudgingly accept (like Javascript), and ones that just aren't my cup of tea but I'll use them if I must (Java). Still, I try to be fair, and I believe that most languages have their niche. Even Perl, if I'm being generous, but that doesn't mean I'll use it and it doesn't mean I don't think there should be a better alternative. The ones I listed up top though - Nope. Just no. I will not use them, except perhaps to port something away from them. I have to have some sort of standards. Sometimes I wonder if I'm being overly picky though.
Real programmers use butterflies
I agree. You need to try D. :-D
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Sadly, the one time I ate rattlesnake all I could taste was the breading. Where's the point in that? :confused:
I nearly ate rattlesnake when I lived in OK but decided against it. The Python was well fed and muscular so was more like a lean steak - even though it tasted of chicken. It had belonged to a friend of mine who, when it died, decided we should all get together and eat it. A bit weird but no more than a regular wake for people, I suppose.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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For its time (when procedural languages ruled the world), BASIC was a good beginner's language. Its modern variants (VB) have strayed so far from the original concept that the only things remaining are the name and some vestiges of the syntax. As far as I'm concerned, Python's significant whitespace is a deal breaker. The fixed-format lines in classical FORTRAN were bad enough, but at least they had some rationale behind them (punched card widths, etc.). I see no reason to repeat that in a modern language. I disagree about assembly language. As you mentioned, it is sometimes necessary, both for extremely low-level kernel stuff and for extremely high-performance code. It's also fun! :) JavaScript and other weakly-typed scripting languages are tools of the Devil. :) I shudder to think how much of our infrastructure is built over code that will run even with typos (though it won't do what you expect). Personally, I do most of my coding in C, C++, C#, and Java. As long as one can remain gainfully employed using the tools that one prefers using - why worry? The time to worry is when one sees these tools going out of fashion, and one is required to interface to the new-fangled stuff. However, given that new programs are still being written in FORTRAN and COBOL, I don't see C, C++, C#, or Java being abandoned any time soon.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
If Musk tweeted "mysteriously" about JavaScript, every CIO would be switching to JavaScript. X|
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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There are languages I refuse to use for fear of picking up bad habits. Perl is one. Python* is another. And then there's BASIC :~ I'd add assembly to the list except there are unfortunately, rare instances where I need it. *Python isn't as bad an offender as the others, but its array handling and use of significant whitespace are deal breakers for me. I don't like to holy roll. Sure I have my favorite languages (C++, C#) and languages I hate but grudgingly accept (like Javascript), and ones that just aren't my cup of tea but I'll use them if I must (Java). Still, I try to be fair, and I believe that most languages have their niche. Even Perl, if I'm being generous, but that doesn't mean I'll use it and it doesn't mean I don't think there should be a better alternative. The ones I listed up top though - Nope. Just no. I will not use them, except perhaps to port something away from them. I have to have some sort of standards. Sometimes I wonder if I'm being overly picky though.
Real programmers use butterflies
honey the codewitch wrote:
I'd add assembly to the list except there are unfortunately, rare instances where I need it.
Assembly language is probably the best example of choosing the right tool for the job. Based on your hardware environment and your finances, sometimes assembly language will be your only reasonable choice. At one time the embedded business model was based on providing an assembler and minimal debugger for free, and higher-level languages and IDE's at an exhorbitant cost. I believe my employer is still paying several thousands of dollars a year to G.H. to support C programming on the embedded boards in our products.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
There are languages I refuse to use for fear of picking up bad habits. Perl is one. Python* is another. And then there's BASIC :~ I'd add assembly to the list except there are unfortunately, rare instances where I need it. *Python isn't as bad an offender as the others, but its array handling and use of significant whitespace are deal breakers for me. I don't like to holy roll. Sure I have my favorite languages (C++, C#) and languages I hate but grudgingly accept (like Javascript), and ones that just aren't my cup of tea but I'll use them if I must (Java). Still, I try to be fair, and I believe that most languages have their niche. Even Perl, if I'm being generous, but that doesn't mean I'll use it and it doesn't mean I don't think there should be a better alternative. The ones I listed up top though - Nope. Just no. I will not use them, except perhaps to port something away from them. I have to have some sort of standards. Sometimes I wonder if I'm being overly picky though.
Real programmers use butterflies
C# is the new BASIC: Top-level statements[^]
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C# is the new BASIC: Top-level statements[^]
Yeah I'm not a fan of a lot of the language additions since 8.
Real programmers use butterflies
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I don't disagree that assembly is fun. It just isn't conducive to me keeping up good coding habits. I'm not sure how much we actually disagree with there. And I'm not so worried, except for the fact that I don't want to get too stuck by being stubborn. We seem to agree for the most part, at least conceptually, although we have slightly different views on some languages. I don't think VB.NET is much better than BASIC. It might be worse, as it's no longer beginners, but it still encourages crappy coding. I should add with regard to assembly: I've found it's more fun (in terms of the challenge) to get C++ to generate the assembly I want (or better)
Real programmers use butterflies
honey the codewitch wrote:
I don't think VB.NET is much better than BASIC. It might be worse, as it's no longer beginners, but it still encourages crappy coding.
If MS would stop supporting all the backwards compatibility that they allow in VB.NET, then it would be a much more robust language and be a lot closer to C# than it is now. But really, having personally made the switch from VB.NET to C#, the reality is that C# is generally better on the long term. I completely understand why it still has a massive following as BASIC as an overall syntax was and still is, everywhere. Most people who are in their 40s or 50s and took programming in high school would have done so either on something from Commodore or on a DOS PC using QBASIC. But the argument that VB.NET is better for RAD in business environments isn't nearly as true as it may once have been. And just because C# is better, don't forget that it still has its own quirks that are kind of dumb.
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There are languages I refuse to use for fear of picking up bad habits. Perl is one. Python* is another. And then there's BASIC :~ I'd add assembly to the list except there are unfortunately, rare instances where I need it. *Python isn't as bad an offender as the others, but its array handling and use of significant whitespace are deal breakers for me. I don't like to holy roll. Sure I have my favorite languages (C++, C#) and languages I hate but grudgingly accept (like Javascript), and ones that just aren't my cup of tea but I'll use them if I must (Java). Still, I try to be fair, and I believe that most languages have their niche. Even Perl, if I'm being generous, but that doesn't mean I'll use it and it doesn't mean I don't think there should be a better alternative. The ones I listed up top though - Nope. Just no. I will not use them, except perhaps to port something away from them. I have to have some sort of standards. Sometimes I wonder if I'm being overly picky though.
Real programmers use butterflies
C# is like building a car from a kit. Java is like machining you own parts to build a car. C# is a RAD environment best meant for business applications. Java in not a RAD environment, and is for people who like to putz.
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honey the codewitch wrote:
I don't think VB.NET is much better than BASIC. It might be worse, as it's no longer beginners, but it still encourages crappy coding.
While VB.Net has some serious syntactic shortcomings when it comes to Lambda functions and LinQ, apply the two statements below eliminates all the crappy coding relating to variable and type declarations.
Option Strict On
Option Explicit OnI find the C# "var" variable declaration to be an abomination as it allows the programmer to not understand data types they're using. I also find the use of { and } for code blocking to be a threat to clean coding. In fact, the 2003 power outage that impacted New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Ontario was the direct result of an erroneously placed }. This type of code bug is much harder to miss in VB because the language uses keywords to start and end code blocks.
>>I find the C# "var" variable declaration to be an abomination Could not agree more, was appalled when I first saw that in code examples.
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There are languages I refuse to use for fear of picking up bad habits. Perl is one. Python* is another. And then there's BASIC :~ I'd add assembly to the list except there are unfortunately, rare instances where I need it. *Python isn't as bad an offender as the others, but its array handling and use of significant whitespace are deal breakers for me. I don't like to holy roll. Sure I have my favorite languages (C++, C#) and languages I hate but grudgingly accept (like Javascript), and ones that just aren't my cup of tea but I'll use them if I must (Java). Still, I try to be fair, and I believe that most languages have their niche. Even Perl, if I'm being generous, but that doesn't mean I'll use it and it doesn't mean I don't think there should be a better alternative. The ones I listed up top though - Nope. Just no. I will not use them, except perhaps to port something away from them. I have to have some sort of standards. Sometimes I wonder if I'm being overly picky though.
Real programmers use butterflies
I took a real good look at python and still use it with my Raspberry PI's but i dont really like it, it's like turning the clock back to the late 70's/early 80's with interpreted basic and i too dont like the whitespace thing, but i would take a bit of an issue with basic, especially VB.NET as although i code mainly in c# now, most of my major projects over the past 40 years have been in basic and basic like languages, many obsolete now, and sure, you can see some horrific code, but with discipline you can also write great code, and it aint that too disimilar to c# for a lot of tasks anyway. IMHO the art of the programmer counts for more than the language per-se. GL
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There are languages I refuse to use for fear of picking up bad habits. Perl is one. Python* is another. And then there's BASIC :~ I'd add assembly to the list except there are unfortunately, rare instances where I need it. *Python isn't as bad an offender as the others, but its array handling and use of significant whitespace are deal breakers for me. I don't like to holy roll. Sure I have my favorite languages (C++, C#) and languages I hate but grudgingly accept (like Javascript), and ones that just aren't my cup of tea but I'll use them if I must (Java). Still, I try to be fair, and I believe that most languages have their niche. Even Perl, if I'm being generous, but that doesn't mean I'll use it and it doesn't mean I don't think there should be a better alternative. The ones I listed up top though - Nope. Just no. I will not use them, except perhaps to port something away from them. I have to have some sort of standards. Sometimes I wonder if I'm being overly picky though.
Real programmers use butterflies
Who cares What you think? :zzz: If you don't have the mental discipline or fortitude to reject picking up those "bad habits" then shame on you. IMO your post is just an opportunity to brag about ALL of the languages you know and use, and bash languages others use like the "cool kids". Languages are just tools. If you mash your thumb with a hammer, is it the hammer's fault?
Use the language you like. Ignore the "cool kids"
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There are languages I refuse to use for fear of picking up bad habits. Perl is one. Python* is another. And then there's BASIC :~ I'd add assembly to the list except there are unfortunately, rare instances where I need it. *Python isn't as bad an offender as the others, but its array handling and use of significant whitespace are deal breakers for me. I don't like to holy roll. Sure I have my favorite languages (C++, C#) and languages I hate but grudgingly accept (like Javascript), and ones that just aren't my cup of tea but I'll use them if I must (Java). Still, I try to be fair, and I believe that most languages have their niche. Even Perl, if I'm being generous, but that doesn't mean I'll use it and it doesn't mean I don't think there should be a better alternative. The ones I listed up top though - Nope. Just no. I will not use them, except perhaps to port something away from them. I have to have some sort of standards. Sometimes I wonder if I'm being overly picky though.
Real programmers use butterflies
VisualBasic.Net said to C#... Anything you can do so can I. I can even do some things you can't. I also give credit where credit is due so there are things you can do that I can't. That's mostly because there is an ongoing attempt to kill Visual Basic so that C# has no competition and keeps a top spot in the preferred programming languages lists. Simply said, Why pay a C# programmer 80K plus for application development when you can get a high school grad to do the same in Visual Basic for 40K. People have been basing VB for years simply because they do not understand the full power and flexibility of the language. Every time I see one of these posts, It brings a tear to my eyes to think people love to bash something they obviously know nothing about.
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There are languages I refuse to use for fear of picking up bad habits. Perl is one. Python* is another. And then there's BASIC :~ I'd add assembly to the list except there are unfortunately, rare instances where I need it. *Python isn't as bad an offender as the others, but its array handling and use of significant whitespace are deal breakers for me. I don't like to holy roll. Sure I have my favorite languages (C++, C#) and languages I hate but grudgingly accept (like Javascript), and ones that just aren't my cup of tea but I'll use them if I must (Java). Still, I try to be fair, and I believe that most languages have their niche. Even Perl, if I'm being generous, but that doesn't mean I'll use it and it doesn't mean I don't think there should be a better alternative. The ones I listed up top though - Nope. Just no. I will not use them, except perhaps to port something away from them. I have to have some sort of standards. Sometimes I wonder if I'm being overly picky though.
Real programmers use butterflies
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Who cares What you think? :zzz: If you don't have the mental discipline or fortitude to reject picking up those "bad habits" then shame on you. IMO your post is just an opportunity to brag about ALL of the languages you know and use, and bash languages others use like the "cool kids". Languages are just tools. If you mash your thumb with a hammer, is it the hammer's fault?
Use the language you like. Ignore the "cool kids"
Wow, what crawled up your backside? You're wrong about my intentions, and all you managed to accomplish was to be a jerk to someone that has never done anything to you. And I'll remember it. So congratulations. Smart move.
Real programmers use butterflies
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VisualBasic.Net said to C#... Anything you can do so can I. I can even do some things you can't. I also give credit where credit is due so there are things you can do that I can't. That's mostly because there is an ongoing attempt to kill Visual Basic so that C# has no competition and keeps a top spot in the preferred programming languages lists. Simply said, Why pay a C# programmer 80K plus for application development when you can get a high school grad to do the same in Visual Basic for 40K. People have been basing VB for years simply because they do not understand the full power and flexibility of the language. Every time I see one of these posts, It brings a tear to my eyes to think people love to bash something they obviously know nothing about.
Pretty sure I understand the language considering I've written parsers for both. Let me help you understand something - they're the same language. The only thing different is some superficial syntax. However, VB.NET's is not clean. C#s is. If anyone is paying a C# dev twice what they're paying a VB.NET give me their number. I have a bridge to sell them.
Real programmers use butterflies