Would you work at Twitter now?
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Well, given Musk's public statements on the issue about firing most of his employees and the like, I'm not inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. But even if I was, I won't put up with being treated that way in a workplace. By anyone. I know I'm not alone in that, which is why I suspect Twitter is bleeding top shelf talent right now. If I was a recruiter I'd have been outside their HQ weeks ago.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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i assume you talk about the programmers at twitter "My guess is his top talent has already fled" what exactly do you mean when you say top talent from the pool of twitter programmers? Jonathan Blow on Software Quality at the CSUA GM2 at the beginning of 2016: twitter had close to 4000 employees, space_x had 450 and they build and lunch rockets into space ps - i'm not saying that i'm better than the twitter programmers, but i'm definitely not in the space_x league
I mean the people that can deliver projects on time and on budget, who write great code. They exist in small groups at most any major institution, even Twitter. Talent is as diversified as it is rare. It's kind of weird to compare employee count of two wildly different organizations that do completely different things. I don't really get that.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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It does, and has certainly favored him, but that doesn't necessarily translate to the betterment of the people under him. :)
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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Serious question, without trying to be too political. This isn't really about politics, but workplace quality. I'm just asking you, as a developer, would you put up with working in that atmosphere? By all appearances, from the little I've seen, I'd have been out the door before the ink was dry on Elon's buyout. Not because of who he is or what he believes, but because of how he runs things. My guess is his top talent has already fled.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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Serious question, without trying to be too political. This isn't really about politics, but workplace quality. I'm just asking you, as a developer, would you put up with working in that atmosphere? By all appearances, from the little I've seen, I'd have been out the door before the ink was dry on Elon's buyout. Not because of who he is or what he believes, but because of how he runs things. My guess is his top talent has already fled.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
Hmm. Let's t'ink 'bout dis t'ing. Previous massahs sold their loyal, trusting, staff to the ... Balrog? Check. Previous massahs got big fat golden parachutes and billions in stock for themselves and didn't give a hoot-n-holler about what happens to their loyal, trusting, diverse staff that worked so hard? Check. Loyal, trusting, staff are whining and pining for the good old days slaving under dem dere massahs dat sold dem down de river? Check. Balrog is clueless about the most basic aspects of running this kind of business? Check. Oh, dear lordy lordy. Balrog is beyond clueless. Balrog actually thinks subscription model is viable. So, that's a check, check, check, check, check, checkity, check-check! Oh, snortlefeathers! You've talked me into it! Just like dem good ol' dayz down south. Kin ah sell you me liver? Just one, and it's healthy.
Balrogs need helpers.
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Serious question, without trying to be too political. This isn't really about politics, but workplace quality. I'm just asking you, as a developer, would you put up with working in that atmosphere? By all appearances, from the little I've seen, I'd have been out the door before the ink was dry on Elon's buyout. Not because of who he is or what he believes, but because of how he runs things. My guess is his top talent has already fled.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
Honestly, if I were fresh out of school, or at least 20 yrs younger. Why Not? I College Friend has a son who works for Tesla loading the AI Data. He started fresh out of college, loves it. An even closer friend has a son working for SpaceX (This kid was Fully Java Certified at 11, full-ride scholarships to about every school he applied to). Both love their jobs and feel they have learned half a careers worth. If you are a Dilbert Fan... You won't find a Wally floating around. The team itself would likely kill them, and cook them on a spit out back! So, it's not for the feint of heart.
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Honestly, if I were fresh out of school, or at least 20 yrs younger. Why Not? I College Friend has a son who works for Tesla loading the AI Data. He started fresh out of college, loves it. An even closer friend has a son working for SpaceX (This kid was Fully Java Certified at 11, full-ride scholarships to about every school he applied to). Both love their jobs and feel they have learned half a careers worth. If you are a Dilbert Fan... You won't find a Wally floating around. The team itself would likely kill them, and cook them on a spit out back! So, it's not for the feint of heart.
Kirk 10389821 wrote:
Honestly, if I were fresh out of school, or at least 20 yrs younger. Why Not?
I guess because I had/have better options than working for people that issue drop dead date firing ultimatums for entire teams and otherwise abusing their employees? Even Microsoft didn't do that to me. You do you.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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Serious question, without trying to be too political. This isn't really about politics, but workplace quality. I'm just asking you, as a developer, would you put up with working in that atmosphere? By all appearances, from the little I've seen, I'd have been out the door before the ink was dry on Elon's buyout. Not because of who he is or what he believes, but because of how he runs things. My guess is his top talent has already fled.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
Absolutely! Musk is legitimately sorting out the real workers from the deadwood, and this is one way to do it. I was treated far worse by major aerospace companies back in the day, with management demanding that I sacrifice my life to fix the out of control projects they mismanaged.
Will Rogers never met me.
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Serious question, without trying to be too political. This isn't really about politics, but workplace quality. I'm just asking you, as a developer, would you put up with working in that atmosphere? By all appearances, from the little I've seen, I'd have been out the door before the ink was dry on Elon's buyout. Not because of who he is or what he believes, but because of how he runs things. My guess is his top talent has already fled.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
Of course I would: There are two types of people in the world*: bums and whores. A bum lives in the present and doesn't care about the future; a whore sacrifices the present for the promise of a future. All programmers are whores. * Elon is a third type: a madam. A madam is a bum with money...
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I mean the people that can deliver projects on time and on budget, who write great code. They exist in small groups at most any major institution, even Twitter. Talent is as diversified as it is rare. It's kind of weird to compare employee count of two wildly different organizations that do completely different things. I don't really get that.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
ok, it is now clear what are you saying by top talent. to me, working as a programmer in a company like twitter would be considered only if i want to work as less as i can without getting expelled. sort of like, be invisible in the huge number of developers that have a job of taking care of the functionality of twitter. because i'm sure, from what i see, that twitter can be maintained by 8 competent and 2 high class developers. and those competent developers are in no way skilled like the guys who made Doom or Quake or who won the 4th place at the Assembly Demo Competition or the Apollo 11 team working under Margaret Hamilton. at any point past 2014 twitter had hundreds of developers. don't underestimate "working undetected", because sometimes that is exactly what i want. sometimes, i need a 2-3 years break to study: lisp, tcl, perl, forth, assembly for vga under ms-dos or simply enjoy reading novels while i am at work. because, you cannot get a job that will improve your lisp/forth skills. you can only get a job that can improve your: JavaScript, C#, Java, C++, php... skills
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Serious question, without trying to be too political. This isn't really about politics, but workplace quality. I'm just asking you, as a developer, would you put up with working in that atmosphere? By all appearances, from the little I've seen, I'd have been out the door before the ink was dry on Elon's buyout. Not because of who he is or what he believes, but because of how he runs things. My guess is his top talent has already fled.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
Not now, not before, not ever. Why do you ask - did something change recently that I'm not aware of? No, seriously, it has nothing to do with who runs it. Twitter is just one of those companies that can only accelerate civilization's downfall. Compare the positive that has come out of it (I can't think of a single significant example), vs all the witch-hunt taking place - all the snowflakes and butt-hurt people digging up ancient tweets just to embarrass people and contribute to the cancel culture. Musk would only do us all a favor by taking the bullet and shutting it down. Then go after Facebook next.
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I mean the "make this (crazy) deadline or you're all fired" toxic workplace environment. I honestly don't care about their "fact checks", one way or another because anyone stupid enough to do their "research" on facebook, twitter and youtube deserves what they get.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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I don't base my opinion about Twitter culture from one video. I've been watching the cultures (from afar) at Twitter, FB, Google, Apple, etc... for many years. Even back when Musk was a mere millionaire... ;) Poor management has been alive and well at Twitter from its start. Dorsey is a clown. Always has been. His pitiful management created the mess that Musk is trying to clean-up. I have no idea if Musk's fire and brimstone methods will work or not but "more of the same" never fixes the problem. Ever. I predict we're going to see similar (albeit less public) issues at FB and Google in the coming months and years. Hell, we're already seeing them if you look closely. Spoiled employees who think they can work from home forever, whine constantly on company message boards, be less productive and still demand top tier money. As for working well "at gunpoint"... some people can and do in small-ish doses. Most of us who've been in the game for more than a few years have "pulled a rabbit from the hat" on occasion when the pressure is on. Maybe Musk is merely trying to find his magicians?
fgs1963 wrote:
Spoiled employees who think they can work from home forever, whine constantly on company message boards, be less productive and still demand top tier money.
The pool is going down and the demand is going up. And Twitter HQ is in San Francisco. So even higher demand and very high cost of living. But with plenty of other employment alternatives. So unless Musk has some extraterrestrials in his back pocket he is going to find it hard to replace them.
fgs1963 wrote:
Most of us who've been in the game for more than a few years have "pulled a rabbit from the hat" on occasion when the pressure is on. Maybe Musk is merely trying to find his magicians?
Yes. Because management did not know what they were doing and they decided that development need to fix a problem that management made. Myself I don't play that game anymore.
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Don't quote me because I'll deny everything but I heard he runs Tesla this way too.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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I would in a heart beat. This is why. You don't get to be the richest person in the world without doing things right. Musk is a workhorse. He worked over a 100 hrs a week to get Tesla off the ground. Everybody doubted him. If you look at the great entrepreneurs in History, they persevered. Edison failed 3000 times before he got the light bulb right. Working for people like this is the best education. I learned so much about business from working at Walmart - the #1 retailer, far more than any teacher who has only read in books and not "done" what they teach. There is so much to grow as a human being by persevering through the tough parts. you learn to handle emotions in a much better way. Those that can - do. Those that can't - complain and switch jobs.
Member 11685282 wrote:
I would in a heart beat....I learned so much about business from working at Walmart
When I was single, young and had no experience. Now I know what I am doing. I also know what other people are doing. I do my job, not theirs. And I never pay with my life (those extra hours) to fix their problems. Especially since I always tell them before hand that those problems are going to show up. Now if they want to pay me for it then I am all for it. But it must be actual equal pay. Nothing like 'an extra day off after 3 months of 60+ hour work weeks'. So written notice that I get exact number of vacation hours added (vacation hours must be paid if I leave the company for any reason.) Or even better a bigger paycheck and more stock options.
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fgs1963 wrote:
Spoiled employees who think they can work from home forever, whine constantly on company message boards, be less productive and still demand top tier money.
The pool is going down and the demand is going up. And Twitter HQ is in San Francisco. So even higher demand and very high cost of living. But with plenty of other employment alternatives. So unless Musk has some extraterrestrials in his back pocket he is going to find it hard to replace them.
fgs1963 wrote:
Most of us who've been in the game for more than a few years have "pulled a rabbit from the hat" on occasion when the pressure is on. Maybe Musk is merely trying to find his magicians?
Yes. Because management did not know what they were doing and they decided that development need to fix a problem that management made. Myself I don't play that game anymore.
I don’t think Musk intends to replace them. I suspect he will cut even more as time goes by. Also Facebook, Google, Apple, Microsoft, Amazon are all imposing hiring freezes and may well start making cuts too. I’m thinking Silicon Valley and Seattle are in line for a massive shift in employment. We’ll see…
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By all accounts the pre-Musk work ethic at Twitter was abysmal. Employees spent more time playing, socializing and politicizing than actually working / earning their pay. Maybe I'm old school but I judge my co-workers by their productivity rather than their foosball prowess. My conscience requires me to put in a full day's work to earn a full day's pay. I'd likely prefer working at post-Musk Twitter than pre-Musk Twitter.
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I don’t think Musk intends to replace them. I suspect he will cut even more as time goes by. Also Facebook, Google, Apple, Microsoft, Amazon are all imposing hiring freezes and may well start making cuts too. I’m thinking Silicon Valley and Seattle are in line for a massive shift in employment. We’ll see…